King of Winter-ish Stuff Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 So I've been wondering why people are so opposed to the North being "crushed" and on the verge of defeat? Robb Stark marched south with 20,000 Northern bannermen. Now I've seen a couple threads about the strengths of the Great Houses and in particular there is a general consensus that the North can raise a host of around 45,000 men... Now how could the North be defeated if there is still another 25,000 available troops to be called in? Obviously there will be some of those troops that are sworn to Houses Bolton and Karstark (not really on the best of terms with House Stark at the moment...), but it still begs the question: Why is the North seen as weak and defeated? If the GNC holds true, a Stark king will be put in place and could be at the head of a ~20,000 or so Northern force. And if that Stark king is the person I'm thinking of, then this Stark will be a better battle commander than Robb was. And Robb was able to win all his battles against Tywin and his Lannister forces. This was just a burning thought in my mind, idk what you all think about it. There are still Stark loyalist battle commanders around (ie Brynden Tully, Jason Mallister Marq Piper, Karyl Vance, Tytos Blackwood, Greatjon Umber, Galbart Glover, Howland Reed, Maege Mormont) to help command this host. And considering that Brynden Tully, Jason Mallister, Marq Piper, Karyl Vance, and Tytos Blackwood are River Lords (save Blackfish, but I'd rather have him commanding House Tully than Edmure) and their numbers are separate from the ~20,000 Northern host, meaning a combined Northern and Riverlands force could be larger. I guess my point is.... The North Remembers. It's time for Westeros to Die Hard.... With a Vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 The Northerners aren't going to be marching south again to deal out vengeance with winter near and the Others threat looming. Plus almost the entire army that went south was slaughtered, excluding Roose's men, so that isn't going to be seen has encouraging to the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 The North is not crushed, but the Riverlands definitely are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lopsang Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 You also have to take morale into account. The northerners have lost the greater part of their knights, who are very elite mounted soldiers, most of their men-at-arms died with Robb on his campaign and will ahve to be replaced by worse ones if any, and the rest of the peasants aren't much in battle and demoralized from the slew of terrible things that have happened to them. And, winter is coming, they need to shore up their food supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 The North doesn't have a lot of Knights, although they have people who are as skilled. The North has a lot of strength left, but the same is true for the Lannisters and Tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindLikeWarp Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 The North is coming south again, led by Jon Snow at the head of a wildling horde. And Winter at his back. They will have far more than 25,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Also, if you're implying that Jon Snow is a better military commander than Robb... no he's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 So I've been wondering why people are so opposed to the North being "crushed" and on the verge of defeat? Robb Stark marched south with 20,000 Northern bannermen. Now I've seen a couple threads about the strengths of the Great Houses and in particular there is a general consensus that the North can raise a host of around 45,000 men... Now how could the North be defeated if there is still another 25,000 available troops to be called in? The size of the Northern army is decidedly inconsistent. Stannis' rustling up 3500 men is considered a major feat, and several of the major banners are said to be all but bereft of soldiers (Umber and Karstark, notably). The North is not crushed, but the Riverlands definitely are. Actually, I would say the Riverlords are in a lot of ways in better shape than the North in terms of percentage-of-forces. A smallish force got curbstomped at the Golden Tooth, and then Edmure's army was put to flight at Riverrun, but it rallied afterward, and from that point on the Riverlords missed out on basically all the major losses in the Stark-Tully campaign. They weren't part of the Glover-Tallhart force that got crushed at Duskendale, or the Ruby Ford, nor a major part of the Red Wedding (the Riverlord contingent was basically just Edmure's retinue). And after the Red Wedding, pretty much everybody surrendered without much bloodshed. Between Robb's relief of Riverrun and the Red Wedding, the Riverlords' military participation consisted of low-level skirmishes against Tywin's raiders and the small forces occupying their castles, and the victory at the Fords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowInTheDarkness Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Agree all together the Northerners have easily over 50000 men. Robb couldn't go through the entire north and gather them all up it's to big and he need to march south fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelborn Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 The North is coming south again, led by Jon Snow at the head of a wildling horde. And Winter at his back. They will have far more than 25,000.Wow, ok. But remember what happened all the times the North had marched south. I guess there's a "higher power" about it that prevents them from going South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 As we see from the help Stannis gets from the northern clans, the fleet and troops Davos sees in White Harbor, Lyanna Mormont's letter and the lords like the Umbers who we know are still loyal to the Starks, we know there is still an army in the north with a good amount of troops. They are just looking for a Stark to fight for. As Manderly tells Davos, "Smuggle me back my liege lord, and I will take Stannis Baratheon as my king." I for one would love to see the northern lords and Stannis fight together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindLikeWarp Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 They weren't being chased by Winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelborn Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 And now that they are, makes it easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I seriously doubt the North will be marching south. They've got the Others to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindLikeWarp Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 And now that they are, makes it easier?I think so, the stakes are higher than freeing Starks now. Common cause and survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindLikeWarp Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I seriously doubt the North will be marching south. They've got the Others to worry about.The Others will be the reason they match south. Running from them and forcing the rest of the Kingdoms to help against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelborn Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I think so, the stakes are higher than freeing Starks now. Common cause and survival. The story is heading for a conflict between them (humans will probably "win" though). I don't know if running away would be a satisfying storytelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game of Thrones Reference Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 The Others will be the reason they match south. Running from them and forcing the rest of the Kingdoms to help against them. Moving the entire northern population south would be impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelborn Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Moving the entire northern population south would be impossible. And the wildlings, of course everyone led by Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 The Others will be the reason they match south. Running from them and forcing the rest of the Kingdoms to help against them.What's left of the rest after Dany, Aegon, and Euron tear the south apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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