The importance of description

[Snowborn]

As I said earlier, but maybe I was not clear enough, is that in the quotes I chose, you can get a glimpse into each character's life. Get to know them a bit. Of course knowing that a character has brown eyes can be irrelevant. But skillful description is not limited to superficial appearance.

In Tattersail's description, you can see something bad happened to her. You know there's been fire, you know that she's usualy cheerful but something shocked her so much she lost her cheer, and that it's likely related to her scorched cloak. It's likely a battle, since she's the leader of a mage cadre in an army. You'd expect a commander to be tough, to have gone through several battles, but she seems like she hasn't just gotten involved in an event, she survived it, she's been deeply affected by it.

You may not get to know her, but you know what her circunstances are, which is what's more relevant to the story at that point, and also a stylistic choice.

[Darth Richard II]

Not with descriptions or prose.

Have you actually read it?

[Toblakai]

The more I read that short description of Tattersail, the more I realize how brilliant it is. More is explained than most authors can do with 3 or 4 times the number of words. Looking at it in isolation highlights how great Erikson is at description. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Darth Richard II]

Haha, Orson Scott Card, Stanek AND Bakker already! Who are we missing at this point?

I'm on the phone so I don't have the patience with touchpads to elaborate, but that OSC quote just makes me want to punch him in the face more than usual.

[Darth Richard II]

Double phone post. D'oh!

[Pecan]

I like this thread. I like Erikson and Malazan, but I can understand why some people don't like him, and I find the discussion of writing styles and what works for some people and not so much for others interesting, especially since there are people on here that understand this stuff better than I do.

Just my $.02. :)

[Green Gogol]

I like this thread. I like Erikson and Malazan, but I can understand why some people don't like him, and I find the discussion of writing styles and what works for some people and not so much for others interesting, especially since there are people on here that understand this stuff better than I do.

Just my $.02. :)

Yep, me too. Hope we get some more discussion out of it.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Alternatively, Tolkien never tells us the colour of Legolas' hair.

I'd also note that the Moorcock description is from the 1972 prequel. The very first description of Elric in real-world chronology is from the 1961 short story The Dreaming City:

Yaris' confidence fled from him as he met the eyes of Elric of Melniboné. They were old eyes in a fine featured, youthful face. Crimson eyes which stared into eternity...

Elric was tall, broad-shouldered, and slim hipped. He wore his long hair bunched and pinned at the nape of his neck and, for an obscure reason, affected the dress of a Southern barbarian. He had long, knee-length boots of soft doe-leather, a breastplate of strangely wrought silver, a jerkin of chequered blue and white linen, britches of scarlet wool and a cloak of rustling green velvet. At his hip rested his runesword of black iron - the feared Stormbringer, forged by ancient and alien sorcery.

His bizarre dress was tasteless and gaudy, and did not match his sensitive face and long-fingered, almost delicate hands, yet he flaunted it since it emphasised the fact that he did not belong in any company - that he was an outsider and an outcast. But, in reality, he had little need to wear such outlandish gear - for his eyes and skin were enough to mark him.

Elric, Last Lord of Melniboné, was a pure albino who drew his power from a secret and terrible source.

[Green Gogol]

The more I read that short description of Tattersail, the more I realize how brilliant it is. More is explained than most authors can do with 3 or 4 times the number of words. Looking at it in isolation highlights how great Erikson is at description. Thank you for pointing that out.

But, looking at the description of Tattersail, the first time you read the book, without knowing anything about the story, does it tell you as much?

Here it is again: The burgundy cloak with its silver emblem betokening her command of the 2nd Army's wizard cadre now hung from her round shoulders stained and scorched. Her oval, fleshy face, usually parading an expression of cherubic humor, was etched with deep-shadowed lines, leaving her cheeks flaccid and pale.

To me, taking it in isolation and ignoring what, here is what I can learn from the first sentence:

She is in the military

She command a wizard cadre

Maybe she is a wizard too

She just went through something rough. Knowing she is a military, it's probably a battle.

The second sentence now:

She has some fat on her.

Not too sure what cherubic humor mean exactly, but to me it means she has as baby face and is usually smiling.

Are the lines from sooth, or from worry? Either way she received some kind of shock. It links to the battle in the first sentence.

Resulting in flaccid and pale cheeks.

Now, let's see what I can understand from Lord Eddard:

Brans father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Fathers face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

First sentence:

It tells us we are is some serious situation. The hair stirring in the wind evoke an open plain or something similar.

Second sentence:

We learn he his quite young, but that he leads a hard life full of worries. We also learn that he take care of his appearance.

Third sentence

We learn that he is quite unhappy about something. That he is usually a kind father that loves to talk about heroic deeds. That he talks softly about it evoke a dreamy state, and respect. We also learn at the same time some of the history of Westeros.

Fourth sentence:

We learn Eddard is the lord of winterfell. Also that he cannot be himself when he is acting as the lord, he has to wear a facade, quite different from what he is with his family. He is a kind and loving father, as opposed to a grim and solemn lord. Family vs duty. Maybe a conflicted man? Combined with the gray beard, it gives us the impression that Eddard takes his duty seriously, but think it is a heavy burden that puts a lot of stress on him.

So to me the first description tell us some superficial details about Tattersail, but not much of her character. The second one tells us about Eddards personnality, about westeros, and even a bit about Bran. It makes me want to know more about Eddard, but Tattersail's description does not give me enough to hook me. It's closer to what I expect for a secondary character.

[Snowborn]

Tattersail's description may not hook you up on the character right away, but it can definitely make you want to know more about what happened to her. At that point, the most important thing is what's going on, rather than who the character is. You learn more about her as you read the book.

The Malazan Book of the Fallen is more focused in the story, and the history, than on the characters, which is likely why Erikson chose to present two of GotM's main characters in that way.

Also, you get to appreciate the description more after you've given it some thought, or on a second read. Erikson's intention here is clearly different than Martin 's.

You're biased in favor of Eddard's description :p but yeah, not everyone enjoys Erikson's books, different strokes for different folks.

Edited because I posted it before I was done, by accident. I'm on mobile so I didn't get to revise it properly.

[Shryke]

But, looking at the description of Tattersail, the first time you read the book, without knowing anything about the story, does it tell you as much?

Here it is again: The burgundy cloak with its silver emblem betokening her command of the 2nd Army's wizard cadre now hung from her round shoulders stained and scorched. Her oval, fleshy face, usually parading an expression of cherubic humor, was etched with deep-shadowed lines, leaving her cheeks flaccid and pale.

To me, taking it in isolation and ignoring what, here is what I can learn from the first sentence:

She is in the military

She command a wizard cadre

Maybe she is a wizard too

She just went through something rough. Knowing she is a military, it's probably a battle.

The second sentence now:

She has some fat on her.

Not too sure what cherubic humor mean exactly, but to me it means she has as baby face and is usually smiling.

Are the lines from sooth, or from worry? Either way she received some kind of shock. It links to the battle in the first sentence.

Resulting in flaccid and pale cheeks.

Now, let's see what I can understand from Lord Eddard:

Brans father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Fathers face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

First sentence:

It tells us we are is some serious situation. The hair stirring in the wind evoke an open plain or something similar.

Second sentence:

We learn he his quite young, but that he leads a hard life full of worries. We also learn that he take care of his appearance.

Third sentence

We learn that he is quite unhappy about something. That he is usually a kind father that loves to talk about heroic deeds. That he talks softly about it evoke a dreamy state, and respect. We also learn at the same time some of the history of Westeros.

Fourth sentence:

We learn Eddard is the lord of winterfell. Also that he cannot be himself when he is acting as the lord, he has to wear a facade, quite different from what he is with his family. He is a kind and loving father, as opposed to a grim and solemn lord. Family vs duty. Maybe a conflicted man? Combined with the gray beard, it gives us the impression that Eddard takes his duty seriously, but think it is a heavy burden that puts a lot of stress on him.

So to me the first description tell us some superficial details about Tattersail, but not much of her character. The second one tells us about Eddards personnality, about westeros, and even a bit about Bran. It makes me want to know more about Eddard, but Tattersail's description does not give me enough to hook me. It's closer to what I expect for a secondary character.

The first does tell you alot about Tattersail's character that you are ignoring.

It's giving you a description of roughly who she is and what she does and says that she's normally a happy smiling innocent-looking person who has gone through something terrible that left her shaken.

In the same way that Eddard's description also tells us who he is and what he does, while informing us that he's not that old but has lived a hard life and that while he looks grim in his official capacity, he's actually a warm kind man on the inside.

They are basically the same level of detail.

They give you a basic understanding of their place in the world (command of wizard cadre in army, Lord of Winterfell).

They establish their basic character (normally a happy person and now very sad, a grim exterior hiding a warm interior)

They establish a character beat of some sort that has happened previous to the beginning of the narration that informs their current character (used to be happy but has been shaken, experienced hardship despite his youth)

[Green Gogol]

The first does tell you alot about Tattersail's character that you are ignoring.

It's giving you a description of roughly who she is and what she does and says that she's normally a happy smiling innocent-looking person who has gone through something terrible that left her shaken.

In the same way that Eddard's description also tells us who he is and what he does, while informing us that he's not that old but has lived a hard life and that while he looks grim in his official capacity, he's actually a warm kind man on the inside.

They are basically the same level of detail.

They give you a basic understanding of their place in the world (command of wizard cadre in army, Lord of Winterfell).

They establish their basic character (normally a happy person and now very sad, a grim exterior hiding a warm interior)

They establish a character beat of some sort that has happened previous to the beginning of the narration that informs their current character (used to be happy but has been shaken, experienced hardship despite his youth)

I understood exactly the same thing about Tattersail as you did. Did you read my post?

There is a richness to Eddard description that is not present in Tattersail's.

From the first sentence: he has a son named Bran. He has a horse, which implies some wealth, etc.

You won't convince me that tattersail's description contain as much info. So please, stop trying to prove I am wrong. And tell us what are you own preferences in terms of description in a fantasy novel.

As for bias. I tried Erikson 3 times, and Tattersail was my favorite character. I just didn't enjoy the book as a whole. I also tried 3 time Asoiaf before finally getting to the end of the first book. And I don't care much for Eddard. But yes, I prefer the description given by Martin.

[Yersinia]

Does it even matter what Ned Stark looks like, anymore? In my mind, he just looks like Sean Bean now, even though I read the book first, and no amount of physical description can change that.

[Shryke]

I understood exactly the same thing about Tattersail as you did. Did you read my post?

There is a richness to Eddard description that is not present in Tattersail's.

From the first sentence: he has a son named Bran. He has a horse, which implies some wealth, etc.

You won't convince me that tattersail's description contain as much info. So please, stop trying to prove I am wrong. And tell us what are you own preferences in terms of description in a fantasy novel.

As for bias. I tried Erikson 3 times, and Tattersail was my favorite character. I just didn't enjoy the book as a whole. I also tried 3 time Asoiaf before finally getting to the end of the first book. And I don't care much for Eddard. But yes, I prefer the description given by Martin.

Your started this discussion to prove a point, not to compare notes. You posted the very post I just replied to for the same purpose. And I'm pointing out how you are wrong about that. You even agreed with my assessment. You seem to think repeating information from the AGOT description again somehow makes it count as more.

Cause what this really comes down to is this:

There is a richness to Eddard description that is not present in Tattersail's.

Whatever the hell that means to you, that's what this is actually about. So it's not about the content of the description or the information conveyed, you just like the style better.

Which is fine but it's not what you've been arguing.

[Green Gogol]

So, you are going to argue what my original intent was? You know better than me why I started the thread?

My point is that when you are first introduced to a character, you need to have enough info to get to know the character a little bit, and hook me, to pique my interest. Else, I just don't care for the character.

I chose mobtf as a starting point because that is the most recent book I read, and I found the description lacking. And it's the only one I can think of for the moment.

They state things that are "obvious". The starting point is that she is an officer in the army and a wizard. So far, not much to pique my interest. She wears a uniform. Nothing out of the ordinary there. The uniform is damaged, and we can deduce it was in a battle. Again, given that she is in the army, that is to be expected. She is plump. Nothing to build a story on. She is usually happy, but she is not at the moment. Battles tend to do that to a person in general.

So there is something missing.

Now take Harry Potter. First thing we learn, he lives in a dark cupboard. Here is a first hook. That is unusual. Why does he live in a dark cupboard? Second hook, he wears the old clothes of Dudley,s even if they don't fit him. Why? Third hook, He is constantly beaten by Dudley. Why? Fourth hook, he has a peculiar scar. Where does it come from?

Already 4 elements that needs resolution.

Now, you may disagree with me. What pique your interest in tattersail's description?

[Snowborn]

It's mentioned that Bran is Eddard's son because it's important that we know that bit of info for the story to make sense, and we're seeing Eddard through Bran's point of view.

Why should it matter whether Tattersail had a child or not, had a brother or not, had a horse or not, at that moment in the story? And we're seeing her form a more global perspective, in any case; she's the character we'll be following through that section (iirc, that's post-Pale battle, right?)

What's supposed to pique your interest is not just Tattersail, in that scene, it's the battle, and I think that description does a good job in getting you to want to know what happened.

Edit: if that's post-Pale battle as I think it is, then we do learn more about her and her circumstances in the following pages, for example, what were her relationships with her lover and her fellow cadre mages like, and there are enough hooks in those scenes to make the reader want to learn more.

[Green Gogol]

Yes that is post-pale, and they tell you what happened in a flashback.

[Esa1996]

It's, what, a 900 page novel, the first of a series that altogether must top 10,000? There's plenty of time to find out more about who Paran is, and you do.

Yeah, Erikson does tend to the light side on descriptions (enough so that a lot of people don't realise QB and Kalam are black for a long time, and I didn't realise Tayschrenn is until ICE wrote about him), but in terms of telling the story, it doesn't really matter. The details that are important will come, even if sometimes you do have to wait for them.

Seriously? Tay is black? Wow. I've read the entire main series and am halfway through Blood and Bone and I've completely missed this! :D