R+L= J v. 106

[sj4iy]

Here they go:

- If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why did he do it? No reason seems good enough. What assurance he had that the marriage would be validated? And why would he care about getting married when the situation in which they found themselves was totally clandestine?

Because the dragon 'must have three heads'. His bastard isn't a 'dragon'...his legitimate child, however, is. Rhaegar was very clearly trying to make the three heads of the dragon. Why would he skip such an important step as making sure that third child is a dragon in every way possible?

- Why didn't Lyanna do anything about the horrible consequences that her kidnapping(?) had?

What is she supposed to do? What COULD she do? It's very likely that by the time she heard about anything, it was too late. Exposing herself at that time would have simply put her unborn child at risk.

- Why Rhaegar was so careless about his own family (Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys), when he thought the other two children were as important as Jon himself to fulfill the prophecy?

He may not have been. We don't know, we are never told what he said to Elia, if he said anything at all.

- Why no one really knows what happened, but seem to accept one version(or another) of the story without questioning it?

...not sure why this is a problem, if, as you say, 'no one really knows what happened'. Why would they question it if they don't have any reason to?

- Why exactly Ned exposed himself - and by extension Jon and Catelyn, when the intention would be making the baby stay unnoticed?

It makes no sense for Lyanna to ask him to raise the baby as his own, that would be too absurd.

It would be much better for all people involved if he had given Jon to be raised by people he trusted.

Makes perfect sense to me. What else is she supposed to do when she is dying? She trusts Ned, and Ned makes a promise. He could have declined, of course, but that's not the type of person Ned is.

- What exactly was Rhaegar's plan? Being impulsive is something acceptable but not having a solid plan for a whole year seems highly unlikely.

We don't know. But we can hardly judge when we don't have the faintest clue.

- Even if Young Griff is the real Aegon, Rhaenys is dead. Why would Rhaegar be right about Jon's role in the prophecy, then?

He said the "song of ice and fire" belonged to Aegon, and people jumped to the conclusion that he made a mistake and Jon was "the right son"...

I mean, why would anyone be so sure that he was right when he apparently(it's not even written anywhere) thought his son with Lyanna would be the real deal? I just fail to see it.

He could be wrong again, failing to understand what this "song of ice and fire" meant and jumping to the (wrong?) conclusion that Fire was Targaryen and Ice was Stark.

Besides, we don't even know what Song of Ice and Fire means. Is that in a prophecy Rhaegar saw/heard?

Where and what is it, then?

Is it only a name Rhaegar invented to describe a future event? If so, why?

I'm not sure he ever thought Jon was the PTWP. That doesn't mean Jon isn't, though. I don't think it's 'jumping' to conclusions to say that it's very likely, given that TPTWP can only be one of three people - Aegon (if he is real), Dany and Jon. Those are the ONLY three people it could be, so making the guess that Jon is that person isn't a big leap.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

- If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why did he do it? No reason seems good enough. What assurance he had that the marriage would be validated? And why would he care about getting married when the situation in which they found themselves was totally clandestine?

Well, there are theories that Rhaegar had been plotting against Aerys. Why would Rhaegar think that his marriage would count as valid? Because 1) after getting rid of Aerys, he would be king, and no one would have a higher rank to oppose him, and 2) polygamy has never been made illegal.

Why marry? Ned thinks to himself that Rhaegar was not the kind of man to visit brothels. That's a hint to Rhaegars character. It doesn't state that Rhaegar would insist upon a marriage, but all that we know about Rhaegar's character, doesn't sound like he deflowered girls and then just left it at that.

It would be honourable for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna, either before they first slept together, or after (Robb-style). Otherwise, she would be nothing more than a glorified paramour ;) And Rhaegar seems to have loved Lyanna (her name was on his lips when he died). Would he want to dishonour someone who he loved, or would he want to do right by her? ;)

- Why didn't Lyanna do anything about the horrible consequences that her kidnapping(?) had?

Ask yourself, when did she learn about the consequences? Lyanna was at a remote tower, where no raven would come. A rider could reach the tower, but first that rider would be send away with the info, and learn where he needed to go.

When did she learn about all that had happened, and what could she do about it all afterwards? Did she try to contact Ned? We don't know.. it is possible. It is possible that she had send a message to Rickard/Brandon and that 1) the message never reached, leading to first Brandon, then Rickard riding to KL, or 2) the message reached Rickard, but Brandon was unaware, leading to Brandon riding to KL, and Rickard to show no concern (as far as we know) about Lyanna while at KL himself.

What Brandon did was treason, and the war that arose, came to be because of Brandons treason, and Aerys' reaction to it. It was out of Lyanna's control after that.

- Why Rhaegar was so careless about his own family (Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys), when he thought the other two children were as important as Jon himself to fulfill the prophecy?

If Rhaegar believed that his third child, with Lyanna, would be the third head, than he would have believed in all the other parts of the prophecy as well. The prince that was promised could not do great things when he is dead, and thus, Rhaegar would have no fear that Aegon could possibly die.

Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia were in KL, surrounded by KG, KL guards, and royalist armies who could be called to KL at all times. They were not without protection. In fact, they were in a rather safe location..

Rhaegar left for the Trident expecting he would win. There would be no reason for Rhaegar to believe that Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys would need to go to a "safer" location. They were as safe as they could be. It was Rhaegar's death who changed it all.

- Why no one really knows what happened, but seem to accept one version(or another) of the story without questioning it?

I don't understand this question completely. Do you mean the readers? Or the characters in-universe?

There has been 14 years to question stuff in-universe.. But no one would question what two dead people did, as both those two people were now dead ;)

- Why exactly Ned exposed himself - and by extension Jon and Catelyn, when the intention would be making the baby stay unnoticed?

It makes no sense for Lyanna to ask him to raise the baby as his own, that would be too absurd.

It would be much better for all people involved if he had given Jon to be raised by people he trusted.

Neds reasoning is still unknown to us, but some secrets shoudl be kept as close by as possible. Allowing Jon to be raised elsewhere would mean Jon would be out of sight

When did Ned expose himself?

- What exactly was Rhaegar's plan? Being impulsive is something acceptable but not having a solid plan for a whole year seems highly unlikely.

Rhaegar could not see the future. He could not have known beforehand what Brandon would do, how Aerys would respond, and how Jon Arryn would react to that.

- Even if Young Griff is the real Aegon, Rhaenys is dead. Why would Rhaegar be right about Jon's role in the prophecy, then?

He said the "song of ice and fire" belonged to Aegon, and people jumped to the conclusion that he made a mistake and Jon was "the right son"...

I mean, why would anyone be so sure that he was right when he apparently(it's not even written anywhere) thought his son with Lyanna would be the real deal? I just fail to see it.

He could be wrong again, failing to understand what this "song of ice and fire" meant and jumping to the (wrong?) conclusion that Fire was Targaryen and Ice was Stark.

Besides, we don't even know what Song of Ice and Fire means. Is that in a prophecy Rhaegar saw/heard?

Where and what is it, then?

Is it only a name Rhaegar invented to describe a future event? If so, why?

It is never stated whether Rhaegar was correct in his interpretation. Is Aegon the Promised Prince? Possible. Would the three heads have to be three siblings? That was Rhaegars idea, it seems, but is it the correct interpretation? Unknown, as of yet.

Would Rhaegar expect his child with Lyanna to be a boy? I, and many people as well, agree that Rhaegar had been expecting a daughter (to replicate Aegon I and his sisters).

I wrote too much. :bang:

Never :)

[Salazor Ahai Stormborn]

While I agree strongly that J is legit--I struggle with much of your theory. What evidence is there that Aerys discovered that Lyanna was TKoTLT? What evidence do we have that Rhaegar told Aerys he was going to get Lyanna and bring her back to Aerys to suffer for having been TKoTLT? Why would Aerys think Rhaegar would bring her back after crowning her at the trourney? Aerys sent Rhaegar to look for TKoTLT at the time of the tourney, but what evidence is there that any further effort would be made to find this person? Unless you have additional evidence I am not considering, I find it doubtful that Rhaegar went to get Lyanna in connection with Aerys thinking Rhaegar was bringing her back to account for having been TKoTLT. And as BQ87 points out, how could Aerys possibly have even found this out in any event? I highly doubt that Rhaegar running off with Lyanna had any connection to Aerys finding out Lyanna was TKoTLT.

Well, maybe Aerys ordered someone else to take Lyanna and Rhaegar found out. Yes, there is no evidence of any further effort from Aerys, but we never know when Varys is involved - remember he was hired to find people's secrets. Rhaegar leaving his wife and children behind - one of them TPTWP and only 3 months old - all of a sudden made me think. The other theories don't make sense. If R wanted another child would he seek out a maiden? How as he supposed to know if she was fertile? No other theory makes sense to me.

[Ygrain]

So, Bran, take your pick :-)

[stateofdissipation]

I can't see a satisfactory answer to any of these questions, which makes me think that what we believe is very far from right.

There must be a good deal of red herrings and false information that we are failing to identify.

Things don't fit unless we assume a bunch of "convenient" stuff to fill the in the blanks, which does not match Martin's style - or any good author's, tbh.

I think there is too much focus on the theory's outcome(Jon "Targaryen") and consequently a great effort to validate it when it should be the other way around.

Here they go:

- If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why did he do it? No reason seems good enough. What assurance he had that the marriage would be validated? And why would he care about getting married when the situation in which they found themselves was totally clandestine?

- Why didn't Lyanna do anything about the horrible consequences that her kidnapping(?) had?

- Why Rhaegar was so careless about his own family (Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys), when he thought the other two children were as important as Jon himself to fulfill the prophecy?

- Why no one really knows what happened, but seem to accept one version(or another) of the story without questioning it?

- Why exactly Ned exposed himself - and by extension Jon and Catelyn, when the intention would be making the baby stay unnoticed?

It makes no sense for Lyanna to ask him to raise the baby as his own, that would be too absurd.

It would be much better for all people involved if he had given Jon to be raised by people he trusted.

- What exactly was Rhaegar's plan? Being impulsive is something acceptable but not having a solid plan for a whole year seems highly unlikely.

- Even if Young Griff is the real Aegon, Rhaenys is dead. Why would Rhaegar be right about Jon's role in the prophecy, then?

He said the "song of ice and fire" belonged to Aegon, and people jumped to the conclusion that he made a mistake and Jon was "the right son"...

I mean, why would anyone be so sure that he was right when he apparently(it's not even written anywhere) thought his son with Lyanna would be the real deal? I just fail to see it.

He could be wrong again, failing to understand what this "song of ice and fire" meant and jumping to the (wrong?) conclusion that Fire was Targaryen and Ice was Stark.

Besides, we don't even know what Song of Ice and Fire means. Is that in a prophecy Rhaegar saw/heard?

Where and what is it, then?

Is it only a name Rhaegar invented to describe a future event? If so, why?

I wrote too much. :bang:

- If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why did he do it?

There really is not a satisfactory answer to why Rhaegar married Lyanna. there are one or two lines that might be seen as supporting it. There is also a SSM that does not absolutely exclude it.

I find Rhaegar married Lyanna a probable source for Ned's conclusion that Rhaegar did not frequent brothels. (lines one and two joined)

It is an assumption, and as such is hardly defensible.

Robert was fat and middle aged according to all sources... Rhaegar was lovely--check Cersei's description of him. Ned's comment could equally be an observation on the differences in Rhaegar and Robert's looks.

again an assumption and hardly defensible... though actually more defensible than the married Lyanna idea.

No reason seems good enough.

Before we get into the why and the how of the marriage we need to establish that it actually happened.

What assurance he had that the marriage would be validated?

None...

And why would he care about getting married when the situation in which they found themselves was totally clandestine?

We have as much evidence for the clandestine situation as we have for the marriage... None... It was remote, however nobody mentions it as a secret location.

- Why didn't Lyanna do anything about the horrible consequences that her kidnapping(?) had?

The kidnapping prevented or delayed the Baratheon-Stark-Tully alliance. The war between the Baratheon-Stark-Tully alliance and the Targaryens was based on later (or arguably earlier) events. The case that Lyanna's kidnapping failed to prevent the war is better than the case that it caused the war.

- Why Rhaegar was so careless about his own family (Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys), when he thought the other two children were as important as Jon himself to fulfill the prophecy?

The whole idea of what the prophecy was, what Rhaegar thought about it, and how that played in to his actions really needs to be reexamined. It really does not seem to belong in RLJ. The best thing one can hope to accomplish is to show that Rhaegar wanted a third child. However, according to Aemon, the three heads of the dragon need not be siblings.

- Why no one really knows what happened, but seem to accept one version(or another) of the story without questioning it?

Agreed... there is a bit too much certainty that we have all the information.... RLJ is simply one reasonable way to put the information we do have together.

- Why exactly Ned exposed himself - and by extension Jon and Catelyn, when the intention would be making the baby stay unnoticed?

The baby unnoticed-- from what? and when?

It makes no sense for Lyanna to ask him to raise the baby as his own, that would be too absurd.

Dying mother leaving an orphan asks the only living blood relative of the baby to raise it.

It would be much better for all people involved if he had given Jon to be raised by people he trusted.

If there was a threat at the time the promise was made yes. Tywin and Ned both believe that Robert would not kill babies.

"Your grace, the girl is scarce more than a child. You are no Tywin Lannister to slaughter innocents,"--aGoT page 107

"I thought you were a better man than this Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king,"--Ned aGoT page 343

We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.--Tywin --aSoS chapter 53

fifteen years later one has no problem showing a threat...Judging by results Robert killed one Targaryen in single combat.

[BearQueen87]

So, Bran, take your pick :-)

HAHAHAH. I was going to tackle the questions as well, but you all covered it. LOL

[UnmaskedLurker]

I can't see a satisfactory answer to any of these questions, which makes me think that what we believe is very far from right.

There must be a good deal of red herrings and false information that we are failing to identify.

Things don't fit unless we assume a bunch of "convenient" stuff to fill the in the blanks, which does not match Martin's style - or any good author's, tbh.

I think there is too much focus on the theory's outcome(Jon "Targaryen") and consequently a great effort to validate it when it should be the other way around.

Here they go:

- If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why did he do it? No reason seems good enough. What assurance he had that the marriage would be validated? And why would he care about getting married when the situation in which they found themselves was totally clandestine?

- Why didn't Lyanna do anything about the horrible consequences that her kidnapping(?) had?

- Why Rhaegar was so careless about his own family (Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys), when he thought the other two children were as important as Jon himself to fulfill the prophecy?

- Why no one really knows what happened, but seem to accept one version(or another) of the story without questioning it?

- Why exactly Ned exposed himself - and by extension Jon and Catelyn, when the intention would be making the baby stay unnoticed?

It makes no sense for Lyanna to ask him to raise the baby as his own, that would be too absurd.

It would be much better for all people involved if he had given Jon to be raised by people he trusted.

- What exactly was Rhaegar's plan? Being impulsive is something acceptable but not having a solid plan for a whole year seems highly unlikely.

- Even if Young Griff is the real Aegon, Rhaenys is dead. Why would Rhaegar be right about Jon's role in the prophecy, then?

He said the "song of ice and fire" belonged to Aegon, and people jumped to the conclusion that he made a mistake and Jon was "the right son"...

I mean, why would anyone be so sure that he was right when he apparently(it's not even written anywhere) thought his son with Lyanna would be the real deal? I just fail to see it.

He could be wrong again, failing to understand what this "song of ice and fire" meant and jumping to the (wrong?) conclusion that Fire was Targaryen and Ice was Stark.

Besides, we don't even know what Song of Ice and Fire means. Is that in a prophecy Rhaegar saw/heard?

Where and what is it, then?

Is it only a name Rhaegar invented to describe a future event? If so, why?

I wrote too much. :bang:

Ygrain has done a good job of answering your questions, but I will take a crack as well (sorry if I repeat anything):

1. While Rhaegar could not be 100% sure that the marriage would be considered valid, he had to take the risk. Polygamy was never truly outlawed in Westeros and apparently also is valid under Northern marriage traditions (at least Wildings, who also follow the Old Gods seems to accept polygamy). Of course Rhaegar would want to marry Lyanna--he loved her and she was a lady of a Noble House. I doubt Lyanna would have agreed to have a bastard child with Rhaegar. Marriage was the only real option--even if the marriage had some risk given that polygamy had not been practiced for so long. Having a baby was part of ensuring it would be validated and they could not possibly expect to be "clandestine" forever. As I theorized above, the plan appears to have been--get married, then have a baby, and then come back to KL and force the marriage and baby to be recognized. Rhaegar absolutely needed the third head, and I believe he was in love. So while there was no guarantee the marriage would be accepted, a better option was not available.

2. I think Ygrain covered this issue completely. By the time Lyanna likely found out what happened, there really was nothing she could do.

3. Rhaegar was not careless about his other children. They were in the RK--one of the most secure locations in Westeros.

4. I think you mean that everyone accepts that Lyanna was kidnapped. I think this version is accepted because no other version was ever given by anyone. When Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar, Lyanna's family and Robert assumed it must have been a kidnapping, and no one ever contradicted this story. But there are some hints that some people do not believe this to be the case (talk about Rhaegar being with his love, etc.). So I am not sure this version really was just accepted by everyone.

5. I don't think Ned felt there was anyone he trusted enough to raise Jon and keep him safe. WF is pretty far from the rest of Westeros, so questions about Jon were unlikely to be that wide throughout Westeros. I also think the promise to Lyanna might have included raising Jon as Ned's son. But either way--it probably was the best option available--and it worked--no one suspected Jon was not Ned's son.

6. As to Rhaegar's plan--I set that out above--I think his plan was to marry Lyanna, have a baby with her and come back to KL with Lyanna and the baby and challenge anyone to question the legitimacy of his marriage and child. He then planned to raise his three children to be prepared to be the three heads of the dragon. He also might have planned to unseat Aerys, but I am less sure of that issue than some others around here.

7. Whether Rhaegar changed his mind about Jon being TPTWP is a matter of much debate around here (I believe that BearQueen87 and I are the two posters most associated with the theory that Rhaegar did change his view and believed Jon to be TPTWP), but it really is not that important. Either way, Rhaegar believed Jon would be at least one of the heads of the dragon. I personally think that whether Rhaegar knew it or not, Jon in fact is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. The song has many meanings, and Jon is one of them. I doubt Rhaegar invented the name of the song--I think Ygrain indicated that Ghost of High Heart (also known as the woods witch) probably was the source of this information.

I hope these answers help to clear up any confusion you might have.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, maybe Aerys ordered someone else to take Lyanna and Rhaegar found out. Yes, there is no evidence of any further effort from Aerys, but we never know when Varys is involved - remember he was hired to find people's secrets. Rhaegar leaving his wife and children behind - one of them TPTWP and only 3 months old - all of a sudden made me think. The other theories don't make sense. If R wanted another child would he seek out a maiden? How as he supposed to know if she was fertile? No other theory makes sense to me.

Let me try a theory for you that makes sense to me. Rhaegar believes that he will be the father to the the prophesized three heads of the dragon. After the birth of his second child, however, his wife become unable to have more children. He goes to his wife and says that she knows that he needs to have three heads of the dragon but she cannot give him the third head. Targaryen used to have more than one wife, so he gets Elia to agree that he will marry another to have the third head. Rhaegar either starts communication with Lyanna or already had been in communication with her. They struck up some kind of mutual attraction at the tourney. He needs a child and she wants to get away from Robert. The idea of marrying the Crown Prince--even as a second wife--appeals to her. They agree to run off, have a baby, wait until this cool down (boy were they wrong about that) and then return with wife and baby in tow. Makes sense to me that this is what they were thinking. Why is it so far fetched to you?

[BearQueen87]

7. Whether Rhaegar changed his mind about Jon being TPTWP is a matter of much debate around here (I believe that BearQueen87 and I are the two posters most associated with the theory that Rhaegar did change his view and believed Jon to be TPTWP), but it really is not that important. Either way, Rhaegar believed Jon would be at least one of the heads of the dragon. I personally think that whether Rhaegar knew it or not, Jon in fact is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. The song has many meanings, and Jon is one of them. I doubt Rhaegar invented the name of the song--I think Ygrain indicated that Ghost of High Heart (also known as the woods witch) probably was the source of this information.

:commie: ;)

Let me try a theory for you that makes sense to me. Rhaegar believes that he will be the father to the the prophesized three heads of the dragon. After the birth of his second child, however, his wife become unable to have more children. He goes to his wife and says that she knows that he needs to have three heads of the dragon but she cannot give him the third head. Targaryen used to have more than one wife, so he gets Elia to agree that he will marry another to have the third head. Rhaegar either starts communication with Lyanna or already had been in communication with her. They struck up some kind of mutual attraction at the tourney. He needs a child and she wants to get away from Robert. The idea of marrying the Crown Prince--even as a second wife--appeals to her. They agree to run off, have a baby, wait until this cool down (boy were they wrong about that) and then return with wife and baby in tow. Makes sense to me that this is what they were thinking. Why is it so far fetched to you?

I agree (ha) and this makes much more sense than Aerys through Varys suddenly finding out about Lyanna and deciding to go after her. I think there's a good chance that the King never knew and that Varys never found out.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think there is possible to believe in RLJ without implying they got married. I certainly don't believe they did.

And NOT, this isn't a cue for you people trying to convince me. I've read all the theories and evidences and I'm not yet convinced. With that being said, I wouldn't mind if they are married, but I simply don't think, nor I would like, for that to happen.

I'm not sure how much JonCon knows about RLJ besides the obvious--that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together in some sense of the word. If part of 'taking" Lyanna was about prophecy then I don't think JonCon knows that; apart from Dayne and Whent and Aemon at the Wall (and potentially Elia of Dorne), I'm not sure how much Rhaegar talked about the prophecy with others.

I think he does know something we don't, in the sense that he might say/comment something that we all readers will go "omgomgomg, that makes sense". For me, it was the comment of Elia not being able to have more children, and the Maesters telling Rhaegar. I don't remember any other character making a comment about that about her, only that she was weak. And in the same book, Kevan mentions that "Cersei could have gave R more children". So, either it was a common knowledge (which I doubt, hence the lack of others saying it), or something that only Rhaegar's relatively private circle knew, and somehow, the Lannisters (who wanted a Lannister Queen) found out via Pycelle.

However, JonCon can shed light on Rhaegar's character and maybe more of the events at HH that we haven't been privy to yet, like "behind the scenes" stuff.

Indeed, Jon was present during the Tourney of HH too. I mean, there was a lot of people there, but pretty much everybody who was close/related to Rhaegar is already dead for us to know whatever happened in his head, or what was the comment of those close to him. Howland could only know what the Starks thought about it, not the King or the Princess. I'm not saying that Rhaegar actually confided his feelings to him, but at least, he could have heard something.

[BearQueen87]

I think there is possible to believe in RLJ without implying they got married. I certainly don't believe they did.

And NOT, this isn't a cue for you people trying to convince me. I've read all the theories and evidences and I'm not yet convinced. With that being said, I wouldn't mind if they are married, but I simply don't think, nor I would like, for that to happen.

Shun the non-believer! Shuuuuuuuuuun ;)

Indeed, Jon was present during the Tourney of HH too. I mean, there was a lot of people there, but pretty much everybody who was close/related to Rhaegar is already dead for us to know whatever happened in his head, or what was the comment of those close to him. Howland could only know what the Starks thought about it, not the King or the Princess. I'm not saying that Rhaegar actually confided his feelings to him, but at least, he could have heard something.

I agree. Howland can shed some light on the Stark side of things, but JonCon most likely knows somethings not only about Rhaegar, but perhaps about Aerys' final months as he was Hand of the King for a small time. Tell your Griffin not to die before he spills the beans!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Shun the non-believer! Shuuuuuuuuuun ;)

I agree. Howland can shed some light on the Stark side of things, but JonCon most likely knows somethings not only about Rhaegar, but perhaps about Aerys' final months as he was Hand of the King for a small time. Tell your Griffin not to die before he spills the beans!

He won't die as soon as people think/want. That's simply discrimination against the late appeared in the books. =( I'm sure he's still playing something big before he dies.

[sj4iy]

He won't die as soon as people think/want. That's simply discrimination against the late appeared in the books. =( I'm sure he's still playing something big before he dies.

I hope so. Otherwise his arc seems kind of pointless.

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

Who ever said that the theory was simple? If it were simple, everyone would get it immediately on a first reading of the text. R+L=J becomes clear only after examining the evidence closely--too many things would make no sense otherwise. But putting together all the puzzle pieces and concluding that R+L=J is the only answer to the puzzle that works is not at all the same thing as arguing that the theory is simple.

[Bran17]

It's only "simple" because people spent a huge amount of time putting it all together. Look forward to your questions.

I think you didn't get my point. I meant you didn't succeed(IMHO) at putting it together. :D

Now, guys... Imma have to use all my abilities to respond to your posts. Thank you for giving me such a hard task. XD

1. Why did Aegon marry both his sisters? For duty, and for lust. Furthermore, if one wants to bed a woman, the honourable thing is to marry her, and Rhaegar was supposedly honourable. Also, if he wanted to sire the third dragon head, the child would have tou be legitimate because bastard wouldn't be a dragon (or a wolf, as we learn in the very first chapter where Jon appears). You pick.

2. The moment Brandon walked into the Red Keep and committed treason by threatening the Crown Prince, there was nothing Lyanna could do, and after Brandon and Rickard were killed and Jon Arryn rebelled to protect Ned and Robert, Lyanna no longer mattered. Plus, the whole matter of distances and information travel. Quite likely, she learned only when it was too late and the Rebellion was already under way.

3. How was he careless? They were never in danger until the end of the Rebellion, and he couldn't have foreseen the Sack.

4. What exactly are you referring to here?

5. Only, he never exposed himself or anyone else. No-one suspects a thing.

6. Whatever his plan may have been, it didn't take into account Brandon's rashness and Aerys' mad response. It has been speculated that he wanted to make away with Lyanna and keep a low profile so that neither her nor his family can find them, and resurface only after she got pregnant and thus their union became asinsoluble as possible.

7. Rhaegar being wrong about Aegon doesn't mean that he necessarily realized the mistake. The HotU vision shows him thinking that he needs one more child (but this is yet another aspect where he might have been wrong and the three heads may not be referring to actual persons).

It is assumed that the prophecy of PTWP is what Rhaegar read as a child and it made him become a warrior. As it is related to the Targ bloodline, it is probably the prophecy of Daenys the Dreamer who foresaw the Doom of Valyria and was thus a reliable source. Furthermore, the prophecy was narrowed down to the lineage of Aerys and Rhaella by Ghost of High Heart. It has been theorized that, since GoHH is related to the tragedy of Summerhall, Rhaegar might have encountered her during his lone visits to the ruins.

1. I don't buy this. If he was so worried about doing the honourable thing, he wouldn't kidnap her in the first place or marry a girl being already married to someone else. It would be totally contradictory.

On the "dragon" thing... I disagree. Of course Jon would be a dragon. From a "prophecy point of view", it's all about the bloodline, not names.

2. She should feel guilty and leave the ToJ. If she was a nice person, of course. She could be a bitch.

3. If he believed his 3 children were the keys to save humanity, he wouldn't neglect(as in leaving behind) two of them like he did. Actually, if he was the outstanding man people say he was(inside the books, I mean), he would never do that. He should know his actions would have big consequences.

5/4. Of course he did. He wasn't the kind of man who would betray his wife, yet that's the story he told to justify the existence of the baby, refusing to tell who his mother was.

That's highly suspicious and anyone who knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar at the time could link those two facts. If someone doubted Jon was Ned's, the person could jump to the conclusion he was someone's close to Ned... It was not hard to figure that out. If he had sent Jon elsewhere, the baby couldn't be linked to his family and would be safer. He exposed them both.

(I was refering to the people inside the book, not the readers.)

6. He was silly, then.

7. Clearly we don't know what prophecy was driving Rhaegar's actions at that time, so it's kinda pointless to discuss about it.

[Bran17]

1- Because the dragon 'must have three heads'. His bastard isn't a 'dragon'...his legitimate child, however, is. Rhaegar was very clearly trying to make the three heads of the dragon. Why would he skip such an important step as making sure that third child is a dragon in every way possible?

2 - What is she supposed to do? What COULD she do? It's very likely that by the time she heard about anything, it was too late. Exposing herself at that time would have simply put her unborn child at risk.

3 -He may not have been. We don't know, we are never told what he said to Elia, if he said anything at all.

4 -...not sure why this is a problem, if, as you say, 'no one really knows what happened'. Why would they question it if they don't have any reason to?

5 - Makes perfect sense to me. What else is she supposed to do when she is dying? She trusts Ned, and Ned makes a promise. He could have declined, of course, but that's not the type of person Ned is.

6 - We don't know. But we can hardly judge when we don't have the faintest clue.

7 - I'm not sure he ever thought Jon was the PTWP. That doesn't mean Jon isn't, though. I don't think it's 'jumping' to conclusions to say that it's very likely, given that TPTWP can only be one of three people - Aegon (if he is real), Dany and Jon. Those are the ONLY three people it could be, so making the guess that Jon is that person isn't a big leap.

1/2/3 - See my previous post.

4 - They don't know what happened and they don't question the two different versions of the story. Some people believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and other people are sure he loved her and it was consensual. It's weird how something so important isn't discussed, but overlooked.

5 - I meant it doesn't make any sense for her to ask him such thing. "Protect him. Promise me, Ned." is totally okay.

"Raise him as your own son, Ned. Promise me."... not so much.

I can't believe Ned raised him because he thought it was the best idea.

6 - Agreed.

7 - I meant saying it's Jon is jumping to conclusions, not considering the possibility that he might be. That's totally okay for me. :cool4:

[BearQueen87]

I think you didn't get my point. I meant you didn't succeed(IMHO) at putting it together. :D

Now, guys... Imma have to use all my abilities to respond to your posts. Thank you for giving me such a hard task. XD

1. I don't buy this. If he was so worried about doing the honourable thing, he wouldn't kidnap her in the first place or marry a girl being already married to someone else. It would be totally contradictory.

On the "dragon" thing... I disagree. Of course Jon would be a dragon. From a "prophecy point of view", it's all about the bloodline, not names.

What makes you think Rhaegar actually kidnapped her and it wasn't an agreed upon thing? Also, you have to think about what Rhaegar thinks not what prophecy actually "means." Rhaegar's interpretation is what matters.

[Bran17]

1 - Well, there are theories that Rhaegar had been plotting against Aerys. Why would Rhaegar think that his marriage would count as valid? Because 1) after getting rid of Aerys, he would be king, and no one would have a higher rank to oppose him, and 2) polygamy has never been made illegal.

slip

2 - If Rhaegar believed that his third child, with Lyanna, would be the third head, than he would have believed in all the other parts of the prophecy as well. The prince that was promised could not do great things when he is dead, and thus, Rhaegar would have no fear that Aegon could possibly die.

slip

3 - Neds reasoning is still unknown to us, but some secrets shoudl be kept as close by as possible. Allowing Jon to be raised elsewhere would mean Jon would be out of sight

When did Ned expose himself?

4 - Rhaegar could not see the future. He could not have known beforehand what Brandon would do, how Aerys would respond, and how Jon Arryn would react to that.

5 - It is never stated whether Rhaegar was correct in his interpretation. Is Aegon the Promised Prince? Possible. Would the three heads have to be three siblings? That was Rhaegars idea, it seems, but is it the correct interpretation? Unknown, as of yet.

Would Rhaegar expect his child with Lyanna to be a boy? I, and many people as well, agree that Rhaegar had been expecting a daughter (to replicate Aegon I and his sisters).

Never :)

1 - If he was planning such a important thing, shouldn't him be careful, instead of careless? I mean, what was his focus? To fulfill a prophecy or to dethrone his father? I don't see how kidnapping a highborn girl would help him, actually I see the opposite happening.

(I already said what I think on the parts of your post I removed from the quote)

2 - That makes sense. :)

3 - Out of sight and way safer than by his uncle's side. If he was raised by someone else, there would be no way someone would draw a line between him and Lyanna.

4 - He could tell. It was obvious they wouldn't just accept it and go on with their lifes.

5 - Interesting. Rhaegar misunderstood lots of things, that was exactly my point. We shouldn't rely on him.

[Bran17]

What makes you think Rhaegar actually kidnapped her and it wasn't an agreed upon thing? Also, you have to think about what Rhaegar thinks not what prophecy actually "means." Rhaegar's interpretation is what matters.

I don't know if he kidnapped her or not.

I just think it's more believable if he did, otherwise she was very dumb or very selfish.

But I'm counting on Rhaegar being a logical person. Why would someone think a prophecy would care for someone's name?

[BearQueen87]

I don't know if he kidnapped her or not.

I just think it's more believable if he did, otherwise she was very dumb or very selfish.

But I'm counting on Rhaegar being a logical person. Why would someone think a prophecy would care for someone's name?

1) I think Lyanna is more complex than that. She's about to be sold in marriage to a man she does not care for nor really like. Her father has some serious southron ambitions and we don't know how he would respond if he learned Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert Baratheon. This seemed like an "out." Now if you think that's dumb or selfish, that's perfectly fine. But it's important to understand Lyanna as a person. She has the wolf's blood, she's the girl who became a mystery knight to teach a lesson to some squires.

2) The propehcy isn't about name..it's about proper birth. a PRINCE that was promised. Not a BASTARD that was promised. Every time Rhaegar concludes about who TPTWP is, it's a true born Targaryen prince: himself and then Aegon.