Are Jon and Dani twins? (R+L=J+D)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Excellent Post... You have hit the nail right on the head... All GRRM statements must be read very carefully, he is very shrewd...

Jon & Dany somehow being twins would also explain why Ned only felt that he had broken his promise after he thought Dany was dead...

Ned never thought about Dany as being dead, though.

[addicted to snow]

No not really. What those theories claim is that all those clues in the books are either lies or mean nothing. As GRRM said;

Now that he has said that he isn't a liar do you believe that those clues are wrong?

Give me a specific clue & I'll let you know how I feel about it...

In General, I do not seem to think that clues / foreshadowing are not always as rigid as you seem to assume that it is... GRRM is the Author, he could have planned ways of delivering a curveball that still manages to satisfy the foreshadowings...

Dany being called the "Storm Born" for instance, is pretty compelling evidence that she was not born as Jon's Twin. However, if Varys or someone was trying to invent a backstory, he would want to come up with a easily-remembered name such as Stormborn to help conceal whatever he was hiding...

As for the SSM I was referring to... If GRRM says "It's closer to 8-9 months than it is to a year"... Based upon other tricky statements that I have seen GRRM use to answer questions, I think that the answer can be anywhere between 0 & 10 Months, but you better not discount 0 months - Because GRRM loves to make sneaky statements like this...

[Consigliere]

LOL.

8/9 months is now the same as 0 months. I guess some people will just twist GRRM's words to the point of absurdity in a desperate attempt to cling onto a pet theory.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Give me a specific clue & I'll let you know how I feel about it...

I will give you a unique clue. Top of the General (Asoiaf) under Recently updated there is a Pinned thread called R+L=J v. 107

As for the SSM I was referring to... If GRRM says "It's closer to 8-9 months than it is to a year"... Based upon other tricky statements that I have seen GRRM use to answer questions, I think that the answer can be anywhere between 0 & 10 Months, but you better not discount 0 months - Because GRRM loves to make sneaky statements like this...

I don't understand your math. 8-9 months is only 3-4 months shy of a year, whereas 8-9 months is...8-9 months away from 0 months.

This. Also any mother would be able to tell you that they happen to know when the baby comes out of there body. I have heard that it's quite uncomfortable. Do you believe that Rhaella didn't knew that there was a baby coming out of her or that her entourage hadn't noticed that Dany wasn't a newborn? Even how the heck Dany appeared at Dragonstone?

[addicted to snow]

Ned never thought about Dany as being dead, though.

He only considered the promise as being broken after Varys advised him that it was too late to recall the assassins sent for Dany...

He thinks about the promise quite often...

Then all of the sudden he's thinking that the promise is broken & Dany is the only thing that I can see that changes...

[addicted to snow]

LOL.

8/9 months is now the same as 0 months. I guess some people will just twist GRRM's words to the point of absurdity in a desperate attempt to cling onto a pet theory.

Is 0 closer to 8 or is it closer to 12???

Or are you guys/girls just not very proficient at math? For Christ's Sake, it is not like we are doing Calculus of Differential Equations...

LOL

I don't really care about this theory, I only know that you are making a mistake if you don't examine GRRM's words more closely...

[addicted to snow]

I will give you a unique clue. Top of the General (Asoiaf) under Recently updated there is a Pinned thread called R+L=J v. 107

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzwuwvYhI31r4mv5l.gif

He would have a difficult time getting out of this one, but that does not mean that he cannot complicate this piece of the plot or add more to it...

Just for the record, I am not a proponent of Dany being Jon's Twin & It is not really even a part of the series that interest me... I am commenting here because I think it is very important to examine SSM Quotes very closely... GRRM lays in bed at night & thinks of ways to answer a popular questions in the trickiest way possible without actually lying...

[No Song so Sweet]

This theory can work without the timeline... don't you think the 8-9 months difference gives a clue? R+L get pregnant twice, first with Jon then they conceive Dany 1 month afterwards. Jon is old enough to travel and has Stark looks so Ned takes him with, Dany is given to someone else to raise because Ned couldn't possibly lie to everyone and bring two bastard kids with him to his wife. They don't have to be twins to be both from R+L.

Also, Martin seems to avoid putting too much of a time difference between Jon and Dany, and he actually says "Nono it's definately not 12 months. Closer to 8 months than 12 months" so he could be trying to not lie without telling that the difference is actually 0.

That being said, I think Daenerys' parents are Aerys and Rhaella. This theory is just convoluted and raises many questions.

[Consigliere]

Is 0 closer to 8 or is it closer to 12?

Classic case of twisting an SSM to fit a pet theory. The interviewer draws a conclusion from the text in AGoT that Jon is a year or more older than Dany. GRRM corrects him/her by saying that "no Jon was not born more than a year before Dany" but probably closer to 8 or 9 months or thereabouts. Simply put; Jon is older than Dany by quite a number of months.

[addicted to snow]

Classic case of twisting an SSM to fit a pet theory. The interviewer draws a conclusion from the text in AGoT that Jon is a year or more older than Dany. GRRM corrects him/her by saying that "no Jon was not born more than a year before Dany" but probably closer to 8 or 9 months or thereabouts. Simply put; Jon is older than Dany by quite a number of months.

You did not read my post or answer the question... Perhaps a bulleted format will help with your comprehension:

• This is not a "Pet Theory" of mine

Before accusing people of 'twisting SSM's to fit a pet theory', you should make damn sure that it's not GRRM doing the twisting & you are the one being fooled.

Is 0 closer to 8? Or is it closer to 12?

[addicted to snow]

This theory can work without the timeline... don't you think the 8-9 months difference gives a clue? R+L get pregnant twice, first with Jon then they conceive Dany 1 month afterwards. Jon is old enough to travel and has Stark looks so Ned takes him with, Dany is given to someone else to raise because Ned couldn't possibly lie to everyone and bring two bastard kids with him to his wife. They don't have to be twins to be both from R+L.

Also, Martin seems to avoid putting too much of a time difference between Jon and Dany, and he actually says "Nono it's definately not 12 months. Closer to 8 months than 12 months" so he could be trying to not lie without telling that the difference is actually 0.

That being said, I think Daenerys' parents are Aerys and Rhaella. This theory is just convoluted and raises many questions.

It definitely seems that he went out of his way to keep that option alive... or to even suggest it as an option...

[Consigliere]

You did not read my post or answer the question... Perhaps a bulleted format will help with your comprehension:

• This is not a "Pet Theory" of mine

Before accusing people of 'twisting SSM's to fit a pet theory', you should make damn sure that it's not GRRM doing the twisting & you are the one being fooled.

Is 0 closer to 8? Or is it closer to 12?

1. Good to know

2. GRRM's answer in the SSM is fully consistent with what is in the text. So, no, GRRM is not the one doing the twisting. Just a few people who lack reading comprehension.

3. 0 is obviously closer to 8.

So answer my question: Is 8 closer to 12? Or is it closer to 0?

[addicted to snow]

So answer my question: Is 8 closer to 12? Or is it closer to 0?

8 is closer to 12, BUT your question is taking the SSM out of context... Martin said "IT (Jon/Dany age difference) is closer to 8 or 9 than to a year"... Surely you realize that all numbers below 10 satisfy this statement...

Not 100% of the time, but quite often, SSM are riddles... He goes out of his way not to lie, he is a master at evading questions, and keeping these points in mind, the reader can often extract more information from a given SSM than meets that eye...

Knowing this & knowing the way GRRM operates, this SSM does not discredit the theory that Jon & Dany are Twins... In my opinion, at least...

People, R+L=J is correct, we get that, but GRRM is going to make it more complicated. How, I don't know... I just know that we don't have the whole story & the bits we are missing are the big bits... Who knows where he is going with this, But Jon/Dany twins doesn't seem like a bad guess, unless there is solid evidence against it in the books & it is not GRRM's writing style to offer firm evidence for or against anything...

[Consigliere]

8 is closer to 12, BUT your question is taking the SSM out of context... Martin said "IT (Jon/Dany age difference) is closer to 8 or 9 than to a year"... Surely you realize that all numbers below 10 satisfy this statement...

Not 100% of the time, but quite often, SSM are riddles... He goes out of his way not to lie, he is a master at evading questions, and keeping these points in mind, the reader can often extract more information from a given SSM than meets that eye...

Knowing this & knowing the way GRRM operates, this SSM does not discredit the theory that Jon & Dany are Twins... In my opinion, at least...

People, R+L=J is correct, we get that, but GRRM is going to make it more complicated. How, I don't know... I just know that we don't have the whole story & the bits we are missing are the big bits... Who knows where he is going with this, But Jon/Dany twins doesn't seem like a bad guess, unless there is solid evidence against it in the books & it is not GRRM's writing style to offer firm evidence for or against anything...

Well look, people can interpret the SSM however they want. For me when GRRM says that Jon is not more than a year older than Dany but closer to 8/9 months, I take that to mean that Jon is anywhere from 7 months to 10 months older. If the meaning is 0 months then that feels like a straight up lie to me.

This twins theory is not well supported imo. Nothing in Ned's PoV alludes to a blood relation to Dany but does with Jon. Dany's birth on DS is well known hence the nickname "Stormborn" and they were not isolated on DS. There was a garrison there and people talk. I mean Dany's age is a lie, identity of her parents is a lie, Alfie Allen said... etc. This theory relies on the fact that there is nothing in the text that explicitly refutes it but there is nothing in the text that supports it either. This is like me coming up with a theory that The Lands of Always Winter are filled with Unicorns with rainbows shooting out their arses. Nothing to support it but nothing to refute it either.

[ChillyPolly]

Here's a list of clues I just posted in another thread. Some of them are a bit different from the OPs:

(1) "They" found Ned with Lyanna's body = a hint there may have been more than 2 survivors at the Tower of Joy, at least initially.

(2) Ned made 8 cairns at the Tower of Joy. Why not 9, since there were (as most people assume) 9 bodies? Yes, Ned eventually brought Lyanna's bones North, but not right away, and in the meantime she would need a cairn to protect her body.

(3) Lady Dustin holds a bitter grudge against Ned for never bringing her husband's bones north. If it meant so much to her, why didn't Ned eventually arrange to have them brought, as he did with Lyanna's bones? Were the bones not available? They ought to be available if Ned made a cairn to protect them.

(4) Lord Dustin's first name was "Willam". The knight Dany dimly remembers from her childhood, who would call her "little princess", was named "Willem". Two names are phonetically identical.

(5) It is repeatedly emphasized that Dany only dimly remembers her childhood and that her understanding of her early history is based more on Viserys' stories than on her own memories. (Hence, if she thinks the man she remembers was Ser Willem Darry, that may merely be because that fits with the stories she was told by Viserys).

(6) Her few explicit memories of this early period do not seem to involve Viserys. Her memories of her room are that it was her OWN room, implying Viserys was not present. Her memories of Ser Willem was that he was kind to her and a terror to the servants, but there is no mention of his interactions with Viserys. When she remembers running barefoot towards a red door, she is, as far as we can tell, alone. Another memory or vision only shows Ser Willem standing in the doorway. She clearly believes that Viserys must have been present somewhere, but there is no evidence she explicitly remembers him.

(7) When Dany reads the secret marriage pact, which was signed in Braavos between Doran Martell and Ser Willam Darry, with the Sealord as witness, while Dany was at the house with the red door, it suddenly makes her feel very strange, but she does not understand why. (There is some mystery here, or some conflict with half-forgotten memories that she cannot put her finger on).

(8) The house with the red door is a huge Checkov’s Gun. It gets mentioned, not just once, but again and again and again and again. It is fair to guess that we may someday see the house with the red door, and that when we do, we will find out something important - and perhaps very surprising.

(9) Dany remembers a lemon tree growing outside the window to her room in the house with the red door. This is mentioned twice. However, GRRM has dropped repeated clues in the text indicating that lemons do not grow as far North as Braavos. The “do you think this is Dorne” sarcasm about lemons in the Riverlands, for instance. He has even indicated that Braavos barely has any trees at all, much less lemon trees (pine trees grow along the coast, outside the city).

(10) When Dany visits the Western Market, she buys scented oils whose fragrance reminds her of the house with the red door. But the scents are not identified or described. Why the mystery? What could it be? The scent of blue roses? The smells of the South in summer that both King Robert and Pycelle reminisce about so fondly? Meanwhile, Braavos seems primarily associated with fish smells and sea smells; smells Dany has long familiarity with from having crossed the narrow sea scores of times in the interim.

(11) Dany remember’s Ser Willem’s smell: “the smell of sickness clung to him night and day, a hot, moist, sickly-sweet odor”. Does not this suggest a climate where even the nights are hot and sweaty

(12) Illyrio hints to Tyrion that his scheme to marry Dany to Drogo involved "years" of planning, so his association with the plan obviously precedes the last 6 months they stayed at his manse. If the plan has been in the works for 8 years or more, then his plans may go back further than Dany can reliably remember.

(13) Illyrio is one of the conspirators involved in the “Young Griff” scheme, in which a young boy is raised from early childhood to believe he is someone he is not. (I am here assuming that Aegon is “fake”. This is admittedly not proven, but it is a widespread theory).

(14) It is revealed early on that Illyrio has his fingers in the slave trade, a trade in which silver-haired, purple-eyed girls are in high demand and carry high prices. Hence, he is the go-to man if you need a fake princess to give to a dumb barbarian in exchange for an army. (Meanwhile, if Willam Dustin had died with a silver-haired girl in his protection, it is only natural that she would have snatched up by someone, sold into slavery, and might find her way into Illyrio’s hands).

(15) Viserys and Illyrio's final conversation on the eve of the wedding makes it sound like Illyrio is trying to convince a dubious Viserys that Dany can pass for a Targaryen princess. Viserys eventually shrugs it off on the ground that barbarians have queer tastes, and even go for horses and sheep. Huh? Where's his Targaryen pride that holds that Targaryens do not mate with lesser men just as Dragons do not mate with lesser beasts? Should he not think that Dany is too good for Drogo? People shrug this off by the explanation that he is just talking cruel to Dany, but he is not even talking to Dany here. He is talking to Illyrio, who is one of those "lesser men" that he supposedly thinks Targs are too good for.

(16) There is also considerable focus, before Dany’s wedding to Drogo, in making her LOOK like a Targaryen (as if that were an issue), her garments being chosen to bring out the violet in her eyes.

(17) Jorah Mormont (and IIRC, Barristan as well) repeatedly hints to Dany that she is more like Rhaegar than she is like Viserys or King Aerys. (If she is Rhaegar’s daughter, she would be more closely related to her father Rhaegar than to her uncle Viserys or grandfather Aerys.)

(18) Illyrio also comments to Tyrion, on Dany’s failure to take after King Aerys: “Viserys was Mad Aerys’s son, just so. Daenerys ... Daenerys is quite different.” Note the hesitation. Was he about to say something else before he stopped himself?

(19) Dany’s vision of the face in the stars in her final chapter, which whispers “Remember who you are, Daenerys. The dragons know. Do you?” (But why does Dany need to remember who she is? Does she not already know?)

(20) Quaithe (and the Star-face) tell Dany “To go north you must go south.” What will she find in the south? The house with the red door?

(21) Rhaegar appears to have believed, from several indications, that the 3 heads of the dragon would be his own three children. Rhaegar’s own connection to the prophesy seems to be confirmed by the omen that he was born in the same year as the events of Summerhall.

(22) The original 3-headed dragon (Aegon, Rhaella and Visenya) consisted of 3 siblings; it is unclear if they were full-siblings, or half-siblings like the 3 “great bastards”.

(23) The Undying tell Dany she is a “child of three”. But she is no longer a child. In what sense, then, is she a “child of three” if she is not one of three offspring of a particular parent (Rhaegar) or parents (Rhaegar & Lyanna)?

(24) “three mounts will you ride”; If Drogon is only her second mount of three, the one she will “ride to dread”, then this seems a hint that her final destiny will be somewhat different than her current path.

(25) One of Mel’s visions: "I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will." Later, in her own chapter, Mel searches again for the Grey Girl because she is convinced it is terribly important, and is able to deduce that she must have been riding to the east of Long Lake. Despite all this emphasis, the supposed solutions are quite underwhelming. Both interpretations (that the “girl in grey” is “Fake Arya” and that she is Alys Karstark) involve minor characters, neither of whom is in fact Jon’s sister (as far as we know). And though Alys does come on a dying horse, she does not ... as far as we know ... wear grey (it is odd the care that GRRM goes to to conceal the color of her outfit, hidden under a black cloak, when Jon meets her). And Alys came from the direction of Karhold, which would not bring her anywhere near Long Lake. A prophesy about a sister implies, of course, that he has a sister.

[JPJK79]

My opinion is that has the more and more evidence suggest to R+L=J the more and more people who will try to believe in anything to dispel come along. This Dany being a product of R+L in any fashion whether Dany is the lone child or Jon's twin is the latest in theories that have come up. To me its the flavor of the month.

[ChillyPolly]

My opinion is that has the more and more evidence suggest to R+L=J the more and more people who will try to believe in anything to dispel come along.

The first problem here is that you are attacking the motives of the posters instead of addressing the merits of their arguments. The second problem is that the motives you ascribe make no sense, since no-one is attacking R+L=J.

[TheLastStark]

Very well done ChillyPolly

[Lord Damian]

If Jon has a twin, it is not Dany. He may in fact have a twin but that is waaaay out there considering how supposedly close we are to the end, unless the twin is a fairly well known character at this point.

[addicted to snow]

If Jon has a twin, it is not Dany. He may in fact have a twin but that is waaaay out there considering how supposedly close we are to the end, unless the twin is a fairly well known character at this point.

I'm not convinced that we have reached the 1/2 way point in the series... Much less being close to the end of the end of the story... I would be willing to wager 10,000 U$D right now that more than two books remain in the series...