Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

[Parwan]

hey could you guys help out here?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118099-did-benerro-make-up-his-aar-sermons-in-volantis/

So are the red priests opportunists or legit?

I posted some thoughts on the other thread. Here I'll make a few comments relevant to this thread.

The question in Martin's post presents us with a false dichotomy. There is no reason that the red priests could not be both legit and opportunists. And there are other interesting possibilities. It is clear to me that Benerro and company do have magical abilities. This is far from the end of the matter though. The priests also are leaders of a popular movement, and this fact will help shape their attitudes and actions. Furthermore, they have allies and associates, some of whom very likely do not share their theology. The widow of the waterfront, for example, appears to be basically a secular leader. The kitchen slaves that Qavo Nogarys fears are sharpening their knives may have a variety of gods, or no gods at all. How does all of this relate to Dany? Will she and Moqorro find a way of working together? What will happen in Volantis. Significant (and violent) events may take place in the city before Daenerys Targaryen arrives.

The Shavepate warns Barristan about the large Volantene fleet that is heading toward Meereen. He doesn't say how much of this military force is composed of slaves and mercenaries. I don't know the exact percentage of each, but I'm pretty sure that those two groups make up the bulk of the force. Most of the slaves, and possibly a good many of the free men, are followers of the red god. Tyrion has some relevant information. He probably remembers the widow's comment that the Volantene leadership will not get the war they're expecting. It will be interesting to see how all of this works out.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thanks for the great analysis Parwan! And also everyone else's posts are spot on.

I definitely agree that Selmy showed some shrewdness in politics, which was unexpected. I also agree with Maia that it's a shame he doesn't speak up more, I think it comes down to the oaths again as I stated in the last thread, Barry feels duty bound to only protect the King/Queen so this becomes trouble in situations where he feels he should act more or speak up.

Now, concerning the dragontaming attempt itself, it was foolish and Quentyn should have known it. I mean, what is striking about his PoV, is that he didn't see the wonder or beauty of dragons at all. For him, they were only dangerous monsters, nothing else. I am quite sure that the successful riders will feel drawn to the dragons and will admire them, even if/when feeling afraid. It is not just a matter of courage.
Which is why, BTW I am firmly convinced that Arya will never be a dragonrider. She was never drawn to or amazed by the dragon bones she saw in the basement of the Red Keep, never felt them soaking in the fire, and even thought that "they loved her not".
In fact, I'd feel that it would be cheating if any Starks, apart from Jon for obvious reasons, became a dragonrider. Unless a Targaryen ancestor gets revealed for them in the World Book, that is. And even then I won't like it.

I definitely agree with the bolded part, that's why I brought up Shireen in the last thread, some might argue that she was afraid of it but we also have to remeber that Dany was afraid of Drogon in her first dream as well.

I don't know where Shireen's future lies so I'll stick with what JCRB said in the last thread "her blood will be important", whether its as a sacrifice or bonding with a dragon.

I think the Harpy and her Sons were surprised at how much support Dany has even after she flew off on Drogon. They've usurped her symbols and adopted them to tie themselves to Dany. This is evident not only in the chairs but also in how Hizdahr is heralded upon entering. His titles include: "Consort to Dragons" (not father to dragons, note...just consort). They are trying to tie themselves to Dany by using her symbols because we know how split Meereen is over the Queen. In this chapter we have men who are yelling that Hizdahr is no king of their and they want their mother. If the Harpy thought everyone would be glad to be rid of Dany and return to Ghiscari culture, they were wrong.

Agreed, the Harpy definitely know how much power Dany gives them, thats why the GG found it important for Dany to have a child with Hizdahr, so even if anything happens to her, the child is still there. That's one of the reasons I don't think the Harpy poisoned Dany, since they lose all their power if she dies.

Agreed--though you know where my loyalty lies with regards to our Queen ;)

But look at the most successful marriage in ASOIAF: Ned and Cat. North/South, prefer quiet life/politically savvy, old gods/new gods. They balance each other.

Interesting, I like the idea of successful relationships (power couples) going along with the theme of the series which is about balance between two extremes, like ice and fire.

Ned and Cat is a good example, as Cat was fiery and Ned was more calm (ice)

I'll also add the Old King and Queen Alysanne, we don't know much about them but I expect Queen Alysanne to have some sort of fiery nature on her character, considering she was a hunter and loved to ride her dragons around, and the Old King would be more quiet and down to earth (ice).

An observation I saw from this chapter:

Fox, hawk, seal, locust, lion, toad. Selmy wondered if the masks had meaning to the men who wore them. Did the same men wear the same masks every day, or did they choose new faces every morning?

Someone mentioned Shakaz is the Varys/LF of Meereen and I definitely agree, this quote makes me think of the Faceless Men, so he has got all that aura of intrigue around.

Based on the politics in Meereen I 100% disagree with statements that Dany's antagonists in Meereen are idiots, so when she gets to Weteros she is going to shatter to pieces, cause LF etc. are more smarter. I believe Martin has written very shrewd characters out of the GG and Shakaz, and to dismiss them as idiots is clearly missing the literary richness of the Meereen plot.

Also I wanted to talk about something, I forgot to talk about in the last chapter, Barristan adds Dany's grandfather to the list of King's he failed, so I'm guessing that means he didn't die a natural death or by sickness, but was killed by someone or something

[BearQueen87]

An observation I saw from this chapter:

Fox, hawk, seal, locust, lion, toad. Selmy wondered if the masks had meaning to the men who wore them. Did the same men wear the same masks every day, or did they choose new faces every morning?

I also wonder if the masks have greater significance. Some of the animals they depict make sense: the hawk and the lion, for start. Those are predatory animals; they are what you think of when you want a protective and fierce guard around the ruler of Meereen. But then you have ones that do not generate the same amount of predatory fear: locust, today and I don't know about you guys but when I think of a seal I picture this

If Brazen is defined as bold and without shame....some of those animal choices are weird. Was this done intentionally?

Based on the politics in Meereen I 100% disagree with statements that Dany's antagonists in Meereen are idiots, so when she gets to Weteros she is going to shatter to pieces, cause LF etc. are more smarter. I believe Martin has written very shrewd characters out of the GG and Shakaz, and to dismiss them as idiots is clearly missing the literary richness of the Meereen plot.

Not only are they not idiots, they aren't cartoon villains either. People often talk about the villains Dany has had to face so far as being "cartoony" and depicted as so comically evil that of course we root for Dany over them but when she has to go up against a "villain" that is more gray or that can garner sympathy, Dany fans will finally see her "true colors." To this I say, "pah!"

The villains she faced are not un-nuanced. Xaro, for one, isn't a mustache twirler. He's a terrible guy, but he's also cunning and smart and got the better of her in ADWD with words not cartoony showings. The Green Grace and the Son of the Harpy are well organized, well funded, and again cunning since no one seems to be able to figure out who they are. None of their crimes are of the ludicrous nature. They aren't the ones throwing children to bears rolled honey. They are performing quick, violent attacks on Dany's citizens under the cover of darkness. They are terrorists, the kind you would see in our all too real world. The slavery Tyrion and Jorah under go is not the sort we heard about in Astapor which did have some "cartoony" elements to it: it's incredibly realistic. And horrifying.

[HexMachina]

The Kingbreaker

“This is what I was made for, he thought. The dance, the sweet steel song, a sword in my hand and a foe before me.”

Summary:

Ser Barristan and Skahaz mo Kandaq meet again to discuss their plan of seizing Hizdhar. Skahaz tells Barristan that Hizdhar’s horrified reaction to the incident with Groleo was a sham, and it was all a ruse to give Hizdhar a pretext to kill the dragons. He explains that Hizdhar will likely hesitate to show his reluctance, and give the Yunkish the opportunity to kill the hostages Daario and Jhogo. Skahaz wishes to attack the Yunaki’I at first light and take them by surprise, but Barristan refuses, asserting that he will not break his Queen’s peace.

The pair also discuss rescuing the hostages of the Yunkai’I; Skahaz believes it is not possible, and is not concerned if the Yunkish kill them. Barristan however believes that each hostage is dear to Daenerys, and they must make an effort to free them. Barristan privately agrees with Skahaz that Daario is bad for Dany, and it would be better if he were not around.

Skahaz mentions that they have hostages of their own who can be killed if the Yunkai’I kill Daario, Hero or Jhogo – the Queen’s cupbearers, kin of the Great Masters. Barristan is reluctant to do this, and Skahaz reluctantly agrees to his decision.

Barristan spends the remainder of the day training his squires, and thinks that some will soon be ready for knighthood. He also warns Missandei not to leave the Queen’s chambers. Before he sets out, Barristan muses on his failures – in particular failing to beat Prince Rhaegar at a joust during the Tourney of Harrenhal.

Barristan dons his white armour of the Kingsguard and sets out to seize Hizdhar. Once inside the King’s chambers, Barristan questions Hizdhar as to whether he is the Harpy. Hizdhar is outraged, but under Barristan’s persistent questioning becomes more angry and anxious. He eventually calls for Khrazz, who fights with Barristan and is killed. Barristan then takes Hizdhar and is about to lead him to a cell, when the cupbearers return and announce that the dragons have escaped their pit.

Analysis:

I would first like to say that this chapter to me is very reminiscent of Ned in a Game of Thrones, in the chapter where he is about to seize Joffrey and the Queen. Both Ned and Barristan feel very strongly about their honour, and as a result, both feel extremely conflicted in their actions.

On to the analysis.

The Mummer King:

No, thought Selmy. “Hizdhar seemed distraught.”

“Sham. His own kin of Loraq were returned unharmed. The Yunkai’I played us a mummer’s farce, with noble Hizdhar as chief mummer. The issue was never Yurkhaz zo Yunzak. The other slavers would gladly have trampled the old fool themselves. This was to give Hizdhar a pretext to kill the dragons.”

Regardless of whether Hizdhar and the Yunkai’I were in cahoots here, it is obvious that this is awfully convenient for Hizdhar, and that the hostages who were returned were chosen very carefully. Even if this was not arranged with Hizdhar, it does send him a message – your kin are safe, you no longer need to fear repercussions against them. We have scratched your back, now you scratch ours. Personally, I believe that this was done exactly as Hizdhar wished though.

The Loyal Knight:

“There is a peace, signed and sealed by Her Grace the queen. We will not be the first to break it. Once we have taken Hizdhar we will form a council to rule in his place, and demand the Yunkai’I return our hostages and withdraw their armies. Should they refuse, then and only then will we inform them the peace is broken, and go forth to give them battle.”

Barristan’s thoughts about Meereen and the people of Slaver’s Bay are clear throughout his chapters – he does not consider them honourable and thinks they are all snakes. This contrasts with his personality, which seeks to do the right and honourable thing at all times. That becomes apparent here, with his unwavering desire to uphold his Queen’s decisions, despite the advantage that breaking them would give. It does make him a particularly loyal advisor to Dany, but that does not necessarily mean he would be her best advisor. If he is unable to question her, or go against her word when it is clearly the wrong decision, he does not help her to be a good ruler. This is a problem faced with people like Aerys, Joffrey etc. who had advisors who would just not tell them NO when the ocassion warranted it.

We will rue you old man’s honour…

“As you wish. Though we will rue you old man’s honour, before this game is done, I think.”

Skahaz is well aware that in the political game that is Meereen (an Westeros) there is no room to be honourable. I agree with Skahaz’s quote – we have already seen what doing things the most honourable way led to before, when Ned tried to seize Joffrey and Cersei. I believe Barristan will come to rue this decision, though I’m not quite sure how yet. His ways are more honourable, more ethical, more moral perhaps. But those things do not guarantee power or victory, as we see multiple times in the series.

The Cost of Love:

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies when he might have made fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire and grief.

These are Barristan’s thoughts about Dany and Daario’s situation, and I agree with him. If Dany wants to be Queen, she cannot have Daario. Dany herself recognises this too, when she sets him aside to marry Hizdhar. Nevertheless, if he is around, he will always be a danger and a threat to whatever stability Daenerys has. If he survives the battle of Meereen, and is still alive when Daenerys inevitably returns, I will be curious to see how the situation is handled.

The Hostages:

“Innocent girls and sweet faced boys.” Ser Barristan had come to know them all during the time they had served the Queen, Grazhar with his dreams of glory, shy Mezzara, lazy Miklaz, vain, pretty, Kezmya, Quezza with her big soft eyes and angel’s voice, Dhazzar the dancer, and the rest.”

A couple of points here. Firstly, I do respect both Dany and Barristan for their refusal to kill the children, which is an abhorrent notion. That said, it does make taking them as hostages seem somewhat foolish – if their parents know that the children will not be killed, them being held will do nothing to deter the families from acting against the Queen. Dany and Barristan’s way is perhaps the most ethical and moral way, but Skahaz supports the much more brutal and arguably effective plan. That said, I cannot support his ideas.

I would also like to draw attention to Quezza, who is kin of the Galazza Galare, the Green Grace. Her description makes her appear very innocent, and she is mentioned frequently throughout Dany’s chapters. This reminded me of another book I’ve read, Royal Assassin, (I’ll spoiler tag in case people want to read it)

where a young girl named Rosemary is the attendant of the new Queen, who is also foreign to the place she will rule beside her husband. The little girl, Rosemary, is mentioned only in passing during the novel, but is present during several confidential and important conversations the Queen has. It is eventually revealed that the girl had been spying for her husband’s half-brother, who wanted to usurp the Throne. In addition to spying, young Rosemary had also interfered with some tower steps, so that the Queen fell whilst pregnant, in an attempt to kill this unborn heir.

Anyway, the point of the comparison is that young, innocent children are often overlooked, and can easily be used to spy or do various other things. Vary’s little birds also remind me of this concept.

Revenge, not justice:

Barristan could sense the grin beneath the mask. “Long has Kandaq waited for this night.”

This is another reference to the familial feud between Loraq and Kandaq, and in my opinion shows that Skahaz’s motives in this coup are less than pure. To him, this is not about Daenerys and who poisoned her. This is about the feud between the two families. This casts some doubts in my mind as to the legitimacy of some of the things that Skahaz says about Hizdhar - his motivation seems more about vengeance, than actually caring whether or not Hizdhar is guilty of these crimes.

The Caring King:

“Take Draqaz with you. One flagon of Arbor gold, and one of that sweet red. None of our yellow piss thank you. And next time my flagon is dry, I may have to take a switch to those pretty pink cheeks of yours.”

We get a glimpse here of Hizdhar’s true nature again. He is not the smiling, placid man that Dany married for peace. He clearly has little respect for others, even if they are from his own status/culture, and certainly does not approach things the way his wife would wish, if he is willing to beat the cupbearers. This is definitely not what Dany would do - we know she has particular fondness for the cupbearers.

A slave…no, a freewoman:

The King looked around wildly. “Her? She’s nothing. A bedslave.” He raised his hands. “I misspoke. Not a slave. A free woman.”

So she is being paid for her "services"? Hizdhar's mask is truly slipping now. What began in Daznak's Pit is becoming more and more pronounced. He shows his true colours time and again - he is a slaver at heart, and always will be.

The Harpy

“You say that, yet when you told them to stop killing they obeyed. Why would they do that if you were not one of them?”

Hizdahr shook his head. This time he did not answer.

Throughout the confrontation, Hizdhar has been becoming increasingly nervous, yet still manages to provide answers. His rather quick response to the question “did you poison the locusts" leads me to believe he genuinely did not do it (he may have known who did, but that is another matter). When it comes to this however, he has no answer. What can he say, how can he tell Barristan that he either is the Harpy, or knows who the Harpy is and did as they asked? It would likely mean his head. The title of the chapter is rather apt imo – the King truly is being broken here, in both a literal sense (As in, he is no longer King) and a metaphorical sense (his facade of Hizdhar of the placid face is broken)

You dare speak to me of lust?

“Tell me true,” Ser Barristan said, “did you ever love her, even a little? Or was it just the crown you lusted for?”

“Lust? You dare speak to me of lust?” The king’s mouth twisted in anger. “I lusted for the crown, aye … but not half so much as she lusted for her sellsword. Perhaps it was her precious captain who tried to poison her, for putting him aside. And if I had eaten of his locusts too, well, so much the better.”

I touched on this before in the re-read, but I will go into a little more depth now. He is obviously well aware of Dany and Daario's liaisons, and there seems to be a hint of jealousy there too. It is possible that his knowledge of their affair could feed into the abortion locusts idea, but mostly, I think this is important because we see Hizdhar for what he really is; he is not “Hizdhar the Friendly Slaver”, this was just a mask he wore to claim power. In truth he is an ambitious, ruthless man, and all he ever wanted was power and status.

Khrazz and Barristan fight:

*quote snipped for length*

I don’t have much to add here, except that this is one of my favourite scenes.

Conclusion:

In this chapter, we see Barristan continuing to feel the constraints of following a code of honour, and the disadvantages this may bring him (in terms of the Yunkai’i). However, we also see him at his finest, away from the political intrigue, simply doing what he does best – fighting. In the end, I think that arresting Hizdhar is a big step to untangling the Meereenese Knot, and is a decision that Daenerys would have approved of, given the information available at the time.

NOTE: I kind of trailed off at the end of the chapter. I would liked to have written more but found myself short of time.

[SeanF]

Helena,

Many thanks. I actually think that Barristan did the right thing, both in participating in the coup, and in sparing Hizdahr's life, pending further investigation. By that, I mean right both ethically, and in terms of acting sensibly.

I think that Hizdahr's regime has to be overthrown, and the time is ripe to hit the enemy forces with everything at their disposal. The Slavers have been hurt by the Pale Mare, but reinforcements are on their way. And they have no intention of honouring the peace.

But the Shavepate is evil like Qyburn. He shouldn't be allowed to have his fun with Hizdahr, who may well be innocent of the locust poisoning. Nor should the Shavepate be given a free hand to murder his enemies and their children, even if necessity requires Barristan to make common cause with him. I doubt he'll betray Barristan, (unlike LF with Ned) as his life is on the line, too.

[BearQueen87]

The Kingbreaker

“This is what I was made for, he thought. The dance, the sweet steel song, a sword in my hand and a foe before me.”

Great job Helena!

This is a good chapter, especially for Barry. I think we see him at his best; he's right, this is what he was made for. With Parwan's analysis we've seen that Selmy isn't "bad" politically speaking. He's got some right instincts and is more adept at the GoT then he might given himself credit for. But when it comes down to it, at his heart, he's Barristan the Bold, knight.

Regardless of whether Hizdhar and the Yunkai’I were in cahoots here, it is obvious that this is awfully convenient for Hizdhar, and that the hostages who were returned were chosen very carefully. Even if this was not arranged with Hizdhar, it does send him a message – your kin are safe, you no longer need to fear repercussions against them. We have scratched your back, now you scratch ours. Personally, I believe that this was done exactly as Hizdhar wished though.

I don't think Hizdahr's reaction to Groleo was a sham mostly because Hizzy seems like a pawn with every passing chapter. He's only the face of power, the real power lies elsewhere. However, I do think that you're right that the Yunkai'i were sending a message to Hizzy. These two--Hizzy and the Yunkai'i--have more in common than one would like. Their end goal is the same: a return to the old ways of Slaver's Bay.

Barristan’s thoughts about Meereen and the people of Slaver’s Bay are clear throughout his chapters – he does not consider them honourable and thinks they are all snakes. This contrasts with his personality, which seeks to do the right and honourable thing at all times. That becomes apparent here, with his unwavering desire to uphold his Queen’s decisions, despite the advantage that breaking them would give. It does make him a particularly loyal advisor to Dany, but that does not necessarily mean he would be her best advisor. If he is unable to question her, or go against her word when it is clearly the wrong decision, he does not help her to be a good ruler. This is a problem faced with people like Aerys, Joffrey etc. who had advisors who would just not tell them NO when the ocassion warranted it.

I completely agree. Barry's time as a KG has taught him how not to speak up, even when he should. Which is a shame since he has good instincts and good ideas. He's suspicious and wary and those are the things Dany does need when she's ruling. You're right that Barry is more suspicious here of everyone, and actually this makes him more like Jorah than he was originally set up to be. Jorah was suspicious of everything and Dany grew tired of it. Barry might be equally suspicious but his problem is that he doesn't voice it. Dany's two key advisers (at least in ASOS) have the same mind set but different problems: one doesn't know when to stop talking, and one doesn't know when to start. It's an idea we've discussed a few times now: Dany needs better advisers, though both Barry and Jorah have served her well to an extent.

Skahaz is well aware that in the political game that is Meereen (an Westeros) there is no room to be honourable. I agree with Skahaz’s quote – we have already seen what doing things the most honourable way led to before, when Ned tried to seize Joffrey and Cersei. I believe Barristan will come to rue this decision, though I’m not quite sure how yet. His ways are more honourable, more ethical, more moral perhaps. But those things do not guarantee power or victory, as we see multiple times in the series.

The price of honor seems to be one of GRRM's biggest ideas that he likes to play with. Ned's probably one of the most honorable men in the entire series and he didn't even survive past book one, whereas men like Tywin Lannister or Jaime Lannister who are perceived to have "shit for honor" manage to outlive Ned. If GRRM keeps with this motif, then Barristan is probably not long for this world, though he'll die the way he should: as a knight, defending his Queen. I'd like for Dany and Barry to have one last meeting so she can thank him for his service, but we rarely get such happy things in this world.

These are Barristan’s thoughts about Dany and Daario’s situation, and I agree with him. If Dany wants to be Queen, she cannot have Daario. Dany herself recognises this too, when she sets him aside to marry Hizdhar. Nevertheless, if he is around, he will always be a danger and a threat to whatever stability Daenerys has. If he survives the battle of Meereen, and is still alive when Daenerys inevitably returns, I will be curious to see how the situation is handled.

I know MOIAF and I have stated that we think Daario might betray Dany at some point (don't kill us, Kyoshi!) Queen Alysanne made a really good point many many chapters ago that Daario represents the war and dragon side to Dany. He's blood and war and revenge. Up thread, a few of us mentioned balance in relationships and that's what Dany needs. Not more fire, but something that balances her and that's not Daario. I also believe we should keep Daario as a symbol in our heads when we get to the end of ADWD.

I like that Barry knows it's the girl that loves Daario, not the queen. Her relationship with Daario is that of a young girl; she even begins eschewing a lot of her responsibilities once they take up together. By the time we're done with ADWD, Dany is ready to be Queen and Woman, and I think that she'll recognize that she can't keep Daario around. She might send him out to war for her, but she'll never invite him back to her bed. I pointed this out in one of my Tyrion chapters, but Daario here is likened to a poison, whereas Tyrion named Jorah as a Bezoar, something that is believed to cure poison. Will be interesting to see how all three of them interact in WOW (or S6 of GOT, whichever we get first, lol)

Quick aside: Please GRRM...tell us what happened at Summerhall. I REALLY want to know.

A couple of points here. Firstly, I do respect both Dany and Barristan for their refusal to kill the children, which is an abhorrent notion. That said, it does make taking them as hostages seem somewhat foolish – if their parents know that the children will not be killed, them being held will do nothing to deter the families from acting against the Queen. Dany and Barristan’s way is perhaps the most ethical and moral way, but Skahaz supports the much more brutal and arguably effective plan. That said, I cannot support his ideas.

I agree. And this comes back to what we've said before, better advisers who could have come up with a better workable plan. Dany would never kill those children. Ever. And everyone knew it. Her hostages were a toothless threat. Skahaz reminds me a bit of Tywin Lannister who had no problem not only ordering the death of children but then presenting their bloody corpses to a king.

Anyway, the point of the comparison is that young, innocent children are often overlooked, and can easily be used to spy or do various other things. Vary’s little birds also remind me of this concept.

That's a really good point. And think about how ADWD ends, little children with daggers.

The Caring King:

Quote

We get a glimpse here of Hizdhar’s true nature again. He is not the smiling, placid man that Dany married for peace. He clearly has little respect for others, even if they are from his own status/culture, and certainly does not approach things the way his wife would wish, if he is willing to beat the cupbearers. This is definitely not what Dany would do - we know she has particular fondness for the cupbearers.

A slave…no, a freewoman:

Quote

So she is being paid for her "services"? Hizdhar's mask is truly slipping now. What began in Daznak's Pit is becoming more and more pronounced. He shows his true colours time and again - he is a slaver at heart, and always will be.

Yeah, Hizzy is scum. He isn't reformed or enlightened. He's perfectly fine with the Old Ways and slavery. And note that even after he corrects himself that the lady in his bed is "a free woman," he doesn't change his position that "she is nothing." His misstep, in his mind is about slavery but there's a misogynistic quality there as well. Had Dany not flown off on Drogon, I think Hizzy would have very slowly broken Dany down and out of power totally. She's be a figurehead to keep the free people happy, but Hizzy/ The Harpy would be ruling.

I touched on this before in the re-read, but I will go into a little more depth now. He is obviously well aware of Dany and Daario's liaisons, and there seems to be a hint of jealousy there too. It is possible that his knowledge of their affair could feed into the abortion locusts idea, but mostly, I think this is important because we see Hizdhar for what he really is; he is not “Hizdhar the Friendly Slaver”, this was just a mask he wore to claim power. In truth he is an ambitious, ruthless man, and all he ever wanted was power and status.

I agree there is jealousy there and I don't think it's because Hizzy loves Dany. He wants to posses her (he is a Slaver after all). He wants Dany to belong to him and only him not out of love but out of power. "Look how I have cowed the Great Dragon Queen!"

Khrazz and Barristan fight:

*quote snipped for length*

I don’t have much to add here, except that this is one of my favourite scenes.

Agreed. Great fight.

Misc Notes

1. We see here, something Helena touched on, that Barry has quite a bit of knowledge about Targaryen history. And yet on the way to Dany's wedding, he was hesitant to share what he knows. Dany gets a lot (and I mean a lot) of flack for not learning about the Targaryen past. But many times she is interrupted before she can learn OR her advisers hesitate to tell her the truth. Barry could have spoken up about doomed Targaryen love to Dany many times. All of the examples he gives in that "better for Daenerys and for Westeros" speech are good ones!

2. Skahaz might be a villain figure but he does understand one aspect of Dany: "tell her some tale of the old days, she likes those." Skahaz sees Dany as a girl who enjoys the "fairy tales" which to be fair, she does have a tendency to like think of as the way things should be (ie: no true knight would kiss his Queen...)

3. "As for those who would never be ready, well, not every boy was meant to be a knight. The realm needs candlemakers and innkeeprs and armorers as well That was true in Meereen as it was in Westeros." This reminds me of what Jon says to Maester Aemon in GOT when he goes to plead for Samwell. The realm needs all sorts. It cannot just be knights and lords. It takes everyone to run a land.

4. Knights who play the Game of Thrones: nothing really to do with Dany directly but we get more of the Harrnehal story, particularly that Rhaegar was trying to overthrow his father. Dany needs to know that. She uphold Rhaegar as a hero and as someone she wants to emulate. She's very proud that she is Rhaegar's sister and has more of him in her than she originally though. But she needs to know everything because her view of "Rhaegar fought honorably,..." equates to not fighting at all.

5. Hizzy has a tendency to lick his lips whenever the Pit is brought up. He was doing in at the Pit, IIRC, and he does it here when Barry mentions it. He finds a sort of perverse delight in it.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thanks for the analysis Helena!

This was a really interesting chapter and again puts the arguments that the Meereen plot is full of idots and mustache twirling Villains to dust, its just a different culture but the characters are as smart as those in Westeros. Just like you, I found this very similar to Ned in AGOT, which again shows us that GRRM cares about this plot and it isn't just "filler".

The Hostages:

A couple of points here. Firstly, I do respect both Dany and Barristan for their refusal to kill the children, which is an abhorrent notion. That said, it does make taking them as hostages seem somewhat foolish – if their parents know that the children will not be killed, them being held will do nothing to deter the families from acting against the Queen. Dany and Barristan’s way is perhaps the most ethical and moral way, but Skahaz supports the much more brutal and arguably effective plan. That said, I cannot support his ideas.

I would also like to draw attention to Quezza, who is kin of the Galazza Galare, the Green Grace. Her description makes her appear very innocent, and she is mentioned frequently throughout Dany’s chapters. This reminded me of another book I’ve read, Royal Assassin, (I’ll spoiler tag in case people want to read it)

where a young girl named Rosemary is the attendant of the new Queen, who is also foreign to the place she will rule beside her husband. The little girl, Rosemary, is mentioned only in passing during the novel, but is present during several confidential and important conversations the Queen has. It is eventually revealed that the girl had been spying for her husband’s half-brother, who wanted to usurp the Throne. In addition to spying, young Rosemary had also interfered with some tower steps, so that the Queen fell whilst pregnant, in an attempt to kill this unborn heir.

Anyway, the point of the comparison is that young, innocent children are often overlooked, and can easily be used to spy or do various other things. Vary’s little birds also remind me of this concept.

I agree with you on this, hostages should only be taken if you are willing to kill them. I don't think Dany would ever have the guts to kill children but I do think she would have the guts to kill adult enemies, so if she wants to take hostages next time I propose adults would work in a favour more

I also found your point on Qezza interesting, I now think it's highly possible that she is a spy.

Another thing I found interesting in this chapter was this quote.

Six Brazen Beasts were with him. All were masked as insects, identical to one another. Locusts, Selmy realized. “Groleo,” he said. “Groleo,” one of the locusts replied. “I have more locusts if you need them,” said Skahaz. “Six should serve. What of the men on the doors?”

Bearqueen touched on it earlier in her response to me, that they might have some significance and I actually think they do. This might be hint as to who is behind the locust, poisoning. If Skahaz's intended target was Hizdahr, then symbolically it's almost a similar situation here, where he is metaphorically giving "locusts" (The Brazen Beasts) to Hizdahr to hurt him and in the pit it was more literal. I also find it telling by the fact most of the time the warriors wear mixed masks, but for this spcific purpose they all wear "locusts" .

And this quote aswell

The floors were covered with silk carpets out of Qarth. On the walls were priceless tapestries, ancient and much faded, depicting the glory of the Old Empire of Ghis. The largest of them showed the last survivors of a defeated Valyrian army passing beneath the yoke and being chained.

Considering Dany has abolished slavery in Meereen, I find this tapestry insulting and I wonder whether it has always been or was posted when she left.

If he recently did, it would fit with one of the themes of this chapter, that the Harpy is slowly bringing back the old ways, such as Hizzy's "bedslave".

Misc Notes

1. We see here, something Helena touched on, that Barry has quite a bit of knowledge about Targaryen history. And yet on the way to Dany's wedding, he was hesitant to share what he knows. Dany gets a lot (and I mean a lot) of flack for not learning about the Targaryen past. But many times she is interrupted before she can learn OR her advisers hesitate to tell her the truth. Barry could have spoken up about doomed Targaryen love to Dany many times. All of the examples he gives in that "better for Daenerys and for Westeros" speech are good ones!

He does seem to know a lot, and I hope we do find out what happened at Summerhall. I have a bad feeling it might be after ASOIAF is done, in the D and E novellas.

[BearQueen87]

And this quote aswell

The floors were covered with silk carpets out of Qarth. On the walls were priceless tapestries, ancient and much faded, depicting the glory of the Old Empire of Ghis. The largest of them showed the last survivors of a defeated Valyrian army passing beneath the yoke and being chained.

Considering Dany has abolished slavery in Meereen, I find this tapestry insulting and I wonder whether it has always been or was posted when she left.

If he recently did, it would fit with one of the themes of this chapter, that the Harpy is slowly bringing back the old ways, such as Hizzy's "bedslave".

Dany would have had that tapestry taken down and burned. I think Hizzy brought it from his family home. It feel antique, like something that was hanging in one of the Slaver's household as a symbol of pride. He put it up after Dany left on Drogo.

[MoIaF]

The Kingbreaker

“This is what I was made for, he thought. The dance, the sweet steel song, a sword in my hand and a foe before me.”

Excellent analysis, thanks Helena!

Regardless of whether Hizdhar and the Yunkai’I were in cahoots here, it is obvious that this is awfully convenient for Hizdhar, and that the hostages who were returned were chosen very carefully. Even if this was not arranged with Hizdhar, it does send him a message – your kin are safe, you no longer need to fear repercussions against them. We have scratched your back, now you scratch ours. Personally, I believe that this was done exactly as Hizdhar wished though.

I agree with BearQueen87 that it doesn't seem that Hizzy was in cahoots with the Yunkai. However, I would further agree that the Yunkai were given Hizzy a message that yours are safe, this is about breaking what the Dragon Queen built. The obvious act being the return of Hizzy's family.

They want to destroy what Dany created and know that Hizzy's views are aligned with theirs. But they also know they can't just come in and do it because they'd face a freemen revolt. So, they are going about laying the groundwork to destroy the peace the the slave revolution.

Skahaz is well aware that in the political game that is Meereen (an Westeros) there is no room to be honourable. I agree with Skahaz’s quote – we have already seen what doing things the most honourable way led to before, when Ned tried to seize Joffrey and Cersei. I believe Barristan will come to rue this decision, though I’m not quite sure how yet. His ways are more honourable, more ethical, more moral perhaps. But those things do not guarantee power or victory, as we see multiple times in the series.

I have to disagree here, I actually think he did the right thing. He might not know all the reasons why he did the right thing but he did. If Meereen falls (and I don't think it will fall) then perhaps he'd regret his restraint but I don't think he'd regret not being dishonorable. However, Barristan honor does all a certain dwarf to negotiate the reversal of the Second Sons which will further weaken the Yunkai army and strengthen the fighting power of the Meereen.

This is another reference to the familial feud between Loraq and Kandaq, and in my opinion shows that Skahaz’s motives in this coup are less than pure. To him, this is not about Daenerys and who poisoned her. This is about the feud between the two families. This casts some doubts in my mind as to the legitimacy of some of the things that Skahaz says about Hizdhar - his motivation seems more about vengeance, than actually caring whether or not Hizdhar is guilty of these crimes.

Oh, I agree this isn't about Dany for Skahaz, this is about an old family feud. However, the coup was still the right thing to do given the weakness of Hizzy rain. His beliefs are not aligned with those of Dany and he would have destroyed little by little everything that she has worked and sacrificed herself for. It was the right thing for Dany and her legacy but also for her people.

Khrazz and Barristan fight:

*quote snipped for length*

I don’t have much to add here, except that this is one of my favourite scenes.

Barristan Selmy: Ultimate Badass™

I know MOIAF and I have stated that we think Daario might betray Dany at some point (don't kill us, Kyoshi!) Queen Alysanne made a really good point many many chapters ago that Daario represents the war and dragon side to Dany. He's blood and war and revenge. Up thread, a few of us mentioned balance in relationships and that's what Dany needs. Not more fire, but something that balances her and that's not Daario. I also believe we should keep Daario as a symbol in our heads when we get to the end of ADWD.

I like that Barry knows it's the girl that loves Daario, not the queen. Her relationship with Daario is that of a young girl; she even begins eschewing a lot of her responsibilities once they take up together. By the time we're done with ADWD, Dany is ready to be Queen and Woman, and I think that she'll recognize that she can't keep Daario around. She might send him out to war for her, but she'll never invite him back to her bed. I pointed this out in one of my Tyrion chapters, but Daario here is likened to a poison, whereas Tyrion named Jorah as a Bezoar, something that is believed to cure poison. Will be interesting to see how all three of them interact in WOW (or S6 of GOT, whichever we get first, lol)

I liked Barristan's comparison of Daario to poison. He is poisonous to her because he doesn't bring out the best in her, he tries to bring out the worst. Let me explain, he encourages Dany to embrace being the dragon queen, which in itself isn't a bad thing. But what he want's from this dragon queen is fire and blood without restraint, without morals, without compassion. Fire and blood can be a good thing when directed appropriately but like any fire if it's left to it's own devices, unrestrained, it will consume everything in it's path both bad and good.

As to the underline part, I'm not sure that Dany's there, yet. Don't want to jump to far ahead but in her last chapter she still holding on to the illusion of Daario. I think something needs to happen where she'll have to choose between Daario and her people, a true choice not like Hizzy vs. Daario, that was just the lessor of the two evils. She'll have to make a true honest decision which will define the path her character will take. IMHO.

Also, I totally have to give you props for bringing up Jorah Bezoar. I have conflicting feelings abotu Jorah but you're turning me around little by little. :D

Hizzy has a tendency to lick his lips whenever the Pit is brought up. He was doing in at the Pit, IIRC, and he does it here when Barry mentions it. He finds a sort of perverse delight in it.

Which goes to show how truly gross he is, his true nature.

Six Brazen Beasts were with him. All were masked as insects, identical to one another. Locusts, Selmy realized. “Groleo,” he said. “Groleo,” one of the locusts replied. “I have more locusts if you need them,” said Skahaz. “Six should serve. What of the men on the doors?”

Bearqueen touched on it earlier in her response to me, that they might have some significance and I actually think they do. This might be hint as to who is behind the locust, poisoning. If Skahaz's intended target was Hizdahr, then symbolically it's almost a similar situation here, where he is metaphorically giving "locusts" (The Brazen Beasts) to Hizdahr to hurt him and in the pit it was more literal. I also find it telling by the fact most of the time the warriors wear mixed masks, but for this spcific purpose they all wear "locusts" .

Good observation.

[BearQueen87]

I have to disagree here, I actually think he did the right thing. He might not know all the reasons why he did the right thing but he did. If Meereen falls (and I don't think it will fall) then perhaps he'd regret his restraint but I don't think he'd regret not being dishonorable. However, Barristan honor does all a certain dwarf to negotiate the reversal of the Second Sons which will further weaken the Yunkai army and strengthen the fighting power of the Meereen.

I think this coup decision might go down as something Selmy knows he had to do and it was the right thing to do--especially if Hizzy had any part or knowledge of the poisoning or was working for the Harpy like we all suspect--but will never weigh easily on him. If he survives Meereen I think he'll always be plagued by if he can consider himself a good knight after this.

Side note: but I'm curious as to what Jaime (or the next LC) will write in the book for Selmy when all is said and done.

I liked Barristan's comparison of Daario to poison. He is poisonous to her because he doesn't bring out the best in her, he tries to bring out the worst. Let me explain, he encourages Dany to embrace being the dragon queen, which in itself isn't a bad thing. But what he want's from this dragon queen is fire and blood without restraint, without morals, without compassion. Fire and blood can be a good thing when directed appropriately but like any fire if it's left to it's own devices, unrestrained, it will consume everything in it's path both bad and good.

Agreed. Just like being too much of the "mother" was a bad thing for Dany in ADWD, being too much of the Dragon is equally bad. Balance. It's all about balance with Dany. (Golly, it's like it's a theme of ASOIAF or something...)

Also, I totally have to give you props for bringing up Jorah Bezoar. I have conflicting feelings abotu Jorah but you're turning me around little by little. :D

Victory!!!! :) It'll be interesting to read what you think at the end of ADWD...I may have a little something tucked away for Dany's final POV.

[MoIaF]

I think this coup decision might go down as something Selmy knows he had to do and it was the right thing to do--especially if Hizzy had any part or knowledge of the poisoning or was working for the Harpy like we all suspect--but will never weigh easily on him. If he survives Meereen I think he'll always be plagued by if he can consider himself a good knight after this.

Side note: but I'm curious as to what Jaime (or the next LC) will write in the book for Selmy when all is said and done.

Indeed, But I think this decision was made easier because he kept to a certain code of honor within the coup. It wasn't an easy decision to make, however, he gains comfort in that things where done in a certain way. Hizzy wasn't killed, the child hostages weren't murder and he didn't break the peace with Yunkai. I think for Barristan that is important, that there was honor in the way they conducted themselves aside from the coup.

I would be very curious to know who will write Selmy's story in the White Book.

Agreed. Just like being too much of the "mother" was a bad thing for Dany in ADWD, being too much of the Dragon is equally bad. Balance. It's all about balance with Dany. (Golly, it's like it's a theme of ASOIAF or something...)

This need for balance is very much also tied to her identify, an ongoing theme both in her arc and the series itself.

Victory!!!! :) It'll be interesting to read what you think at the end of ADWD...I may have a little something tucked away for Dany's final POV.

Hmmm, interesting. Can't wait to hear it.

[HexMachina]

Just to be clear, I do agree with the coup - it was definitely a necessary move. However, what I am less certain of is Barristan's "honour" getting in the way in terms of pressing the advantage against the Yunkai'i forces. Had he acted with the element of surprise on his side, well...who knows. Its the choice I would have made morally, but it perhaps wasn't the most practical choice.

[Maia]

Just to be clear, I do agree with the coup - it was definitely a necessary move. However, what I am less certain of is Barristan's "honour" getting in the way in terms of pressing the advantage against the Yunkai'i forces.

I disagree. There is value in not being seen as a treacherous aggressor. Makes people much more willing to make peace with you or submit to you, once beaten. Even Tywin Lannister tried to goad Edmure into attacking him first and only went on the offensive himself after his ploy failed.

While comparisons with Ned in KL do offer themselves, personally I'd say that Barristan is, surprisingly, closer to Davos's end on the scale of honour and practicalty. Because let's face it, honor doesn't need to be stupid and Ned didn't fail just because he was honorable, but also because he made a number of big mistakes and was generally willfully blind.

It was also surprising for me - and quite different from Ned, to see how open Barristan is to advice. Even from Missandei - a young girl! And he doesn't trust Skahaz, but sees sense in _some_ of the things he says

Barristan's actions remind me of Davos's plot to spirit Edric away, in that he at least conspires with people who have actual reasons to support him/Dany.

Skahaz may be mainly pursuing revenge against the other Great Masters and hoping to amass power, but he has positioned himself in such a way that it would be very difficult for him to turn on the freedmen. Nor is it likely that he'd be willing or able to make common cause with the Yunkish/volantene. He understands that the sellswords are and Volantenes will be there for plunder and won't make any distinction betweenwho they take it from.

Ditto Unsullied, freedmen, etc. Only the Storm Crows are really suspect.

Barristan being a legendary warrior and one of the few experienced military commanders they have also gives him a lot of authority. Skahaz would want to rid himself of Barristan at some point in the future no doubt, but so far he is obeying Barristan's wishes, because he is clever enough to know that he needs Barristan desperately. That without Dany, Barristan is the only one capable of uniting their their motley coalition and leading it effectively.

Dany's name is already being trampled into the mud by the enemy propaganda, no reason to prove them right. And, at this point, atrocities won't help anyway. There is a delicate balance to be found in being reasonably honorable and benevolent, yet sufficiently competent, decisive and hard to be respected and obeyed.

Sure, Dany should have taken adult hostages and executed them if needed_and_ she should have also been raising blood money to the level that it would have actually pinched the Great Masters. And made the families whose ships joined the enemy recall them or pay heavily.

In fact, evicting them from the pyramids and trying to win over free Meerenese of middle classes may have been a better first step for trying to rule Meeren to begin with.

If the murders didn't stop, she should have helped the freedmen to organize themselves in self-defense. It would have been much more difficult to attack them that way, even though it would have produced gettos and made amalgamation of society much more difficult. At the same time, it may have helped to show the Meerenese that they were playing with fire. Etc, etc.

But from the situation that Dany left him, Barristan is right not to succomb to Skahaz's blandishments, IMHO.

[MoIaF]

So...

I was thinking further about Hizzy's reaction to Groleo's head and it seems to me now that his reaction is unusual to say the least.

Hazzy runs the fighting pits in Meereen, he at least ran a few of them before Dany took over and from what we saw in Daznak's Pit, those fights are extremely violent. His reaction during the fight there were of exhilaration, he was enjoying the violence. He must have been doing this for a few years at least and growing up in Salver's Bay as part of a slaving family he had to have grown up at least seeing a minimum amount of violence towards the slaves. Further Groleo was nothing to him, he had no connection to him and I'd be surprised if he even knew him.

So why a man who has been around violence act so scared or whatever it was he was doing? It could have been that it was more real than the pits, but still it seems strange at least to me.

[MoIaF]

I disagree. There is value in not being seen as a treacherous aggressor. Makes people much more willing to make peace with you or submit to you, once beaten. Even Tywin Lannister tried to goad Edmure into attacking him first and only went on the offensive himself after his ploy failed.

While comparisons with Ned in KL do offer themselves, personally I'd say that Barristan is, surprisingly, closer to Davos's end on the scale of honour and practicalty. Because let's face it, honor doesn't need to be stupid and Ned didn't fail just because he was honorable, but also because he made a number of big mistakes and was generally willfully blind.

It was also surprising for me - and quite different from Ned, to see how open Barristan is to advice. Even from Missandei - a young girl! And he doesn't trust Skahaz, but sees sense in _some_ of the things he says

Barristan's actions remind me of Davos's plot to spirit Edric away, in that he at least conspires with people who have actual reasons to support him/Dany.

Skahaz may be mainly pursuing revenge against the other Great Masters and hoping to amass power, but he has positioned himself in such a way that it would be very difficult for him to turn on the freedmen. Nor is it likely that he'd be willing or able to make common cause with the Yunkish/volantene. He understands that the sellswords are and Volantenes will be there for plunder and won't make any distinction betweenwho they take it from.

Ditto Unsullied, freedmen, etc. Only the Storm Crows are really suspect.

Barristan being a legendary warrior and one of the few experienced military commanders they have also gives him a lot of authority. Skahaz would want to rid himself of Barristan at some point in the future no doubt, but so far he is obeying Barristan's wishes, because he is clever enough to know that he needs Barristan desperately. That without Dany, Barristan is the only one capable of uniting their their motley coalition and leading it effectively.

Dany's name is already being trampled into the mud by the enemy propaganda, no reason to prove them right. And, at this point, atrocities won't help anyway. There is a delicate balance to be found in being reasonably honorable and benevolent, yet sufficiently competent, decisive and hard to be respected and obeyed.

Sure, Dany should have taken adult hostages and executed them if needed_and_ she should have also been raising blood money to the level that it would have actually pinched the Great Masters. And made the families whose ships joined the enemy recall them or pay heavily.

In fact, evicting them from the pyramids and trying to win over free Meerenese of middle classes may have been a better first step for trying to rule Meeren to begin with.

If the murders didn't stop, she should have helped the freedmen to organize themselves in self-defense. It would have been much more difficult to attack them that way, even though it would have produced gettos and made amalgamation of society much more difficult. At the same time, it may have helped to show the Meerenese that they were playing with fire. Etc, etc.

But from the situation that Dany left him, Barristan is right not to succomb to Skahaz's blandishments, IMHO.

:agree: Very well said.

[BearQueen87]

So...

I was thinking further about Hizzy's reaction to Groleo's head and it seems to me now that his reaction is unusual to say the least.

Hazzy runs the fighting pits in Meereen, he at least ran a few of them before Dany took over and from what we saw in Daznak's Pit, those fights are extremely violent. His reaction during the fight there were of exhilaration, he was enjoying the violence. He must have been doing this for a few years at least and growing up in Salver's Bay as part of a slaving family he had to have grown up at least seeing a minimum amount of violence towards the slaves. Further Groleo was nothing to him, he had no connection to him and I'd be surprised if he even knew him.

So why a man who has been around violence act so scared or whatever it was he was doing? It could have been that it was more real than the pits, but still it seems strange at least to me.

What I find interesting about Hizzy's reaction to the Groleo's head is that he is not repulsed, he's transfixed.

(snips from text)

Hizdahr sat frozen, a man transfixed...

Hizdarh zo Loraq could not seem to look away from the head. Only when Reznak whispered something in his ear did he finally bestir himself.

When Hizzy does finally speak about the head it is like he's weighing each word carefully, trying not to sound excited, trying to sound Kingly, I suppose.

I think Hizzy is drawn to violence. I made note of his lip licking above, but in this situation we have others--like Reznak, petitioners who are slipping away, and one of the Brazen Beasts who is vomiting--who find the head distasteful or repulsive. Hizzy can't look away from it. I think he relishes these acts of violence.

[SeanF]

My impression of Hizdahr is that he's a weak, but very ambitious, man, who's a long way out of his depth.

I think his reaction to the head is that of someone who doesn't know what he's got into.

[Parwan]

HelenaAndTheMachine said:

A couple of points here. Firstly, I do respect both Dany and Barristan for their refusal to kill the children, which is an abhorrent notion. That said, it does make taking them as hostages seem somewhat foolish – if their parents know that the children will not be killed, them being held will do nothing to deter the families from acting against the Queen. Dany and Barristan’s way is perhaps the most ethical and moral way, but Skahaz supports the much more brutal and arguably effective plan.

The discussion of hostages, killing, and ethics brings me back to some important points, Earlier in this reread, I made the following comparison:

“...Daenerys Targaryen is in a big city. It is a foreign place to her. A situation has developed where she has great difficulties and she is dependent on enemies for help. Does this remind you of anything? I say that it is very similar to Lord Eddard Stark's situation in King's Landing.”

It is now worthwhile to expand things considerably:

There are significant parallels in the stories of Eddard Stark and Daenerys Targaryen. This can be seen from the early pages of AGoT. In both character arcs, we find an important theme—“the children.” The first conversation Ned has is with his son Bran. The first time he talks to his wife, he leads with the question, “Where are the children?” Near the beginning of Dany’s first POV, she hears the children of Pentos playing outside her window. She wishes she could be one of them. Lord Stark is haunted by the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon, Dany by the deaths of Eroeh and Hazzea. At a crucial point in the succession crisis, Renly wants Eddard to move against Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella. Eddard refuses. When things get tense in Meereen, Skahaz wants the queen to kill one of the cupbearers. Dany refuses. These facts are worth considering on their own. They relate to the conflicts between honorable behavior and power politics.

They also are relevant to the “Usurper’s dogs” business. We discussed and debated the significance of Daenerys's discussion with Barristan about Lannister, Stark, and the killing of the Targaryen children. Dany is saying, "all dogs are just as guilty" when she suddenly remembers Hazzea. It's true that this doesn't prove that she now has had a complete change of opinion about the men who rebelled against her father. To me, however, her sudden and intense difficulty cannot easily be waved aside. It is a good indication that she is at least beginning to see things in a different light. This is particularly true when you consider the importance of the "children" theme. If there is a big problem with the "all dogs are just as guilty" argument, then it's obvious that some dogs may innocent, or at least less guilty. The man who spoke against killing her and her unborn child wouldn't seem as bad as the guy responsible for the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon. The dragon queen has not come to this conclusion. However, it is very possible that she will come to it. She may be headed in that direction.

[MoIaF]

What I find interesting about Hizzy's reaction to the Groleo's head is that he is not repulsed, he's transfixed.

(snips from text)

When Hizzy does finally speak about the head it is like he's weighing each word carefully, trying not to sound excited, trying to sound Kingly, I suppose.

I think Hizzy is drawn to violence. I made note of his lip licking above, but in this situation we have others--like Reznak, petitioners who are slipping away, and one of the Brazen Beasts who is vomiting--who find the head distasteful or repulsive. Hizzy can't look away from it. I think he relishes these acts of violence.

Ugh, can we just be collectively disgusted with Hizzy.

Well, whether or not her knew about Groleo in advance it was an easy excuse / pretense to get rid of the dragons.

HelenaAndTheMachine said:

The discussion of hostages, killing, and ethics brings me back to some important points, Earlier in this reread, I made the following comparison:

“...Daenerys Targaryen is in a big city. It is a foreign place to her. A situation has developed where she has great difficulties and she is dependent on enemies for help. Does this remind you of anything? I say that it is very similar to Lord Eddard Stark's situation in King's Landing.”

It is now worthwhile to expand things considerably:

There are significant parallels in the stories of Eddard Stark and Daenerys Targaryen. This can be seen from the early pages of AGoT. In both character arcs, we find an important theme—“the children.” The first conversation Ned has is with his son Bran. The first time he talks to his wife, he leads with the question, “Where are the children?” Near the beginning of Dany’s first POV, she hears the children of Pentos playing outside her window. She wishes she could be one of them. Lord Stark is haunted by the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon, Dany by the deaths of Eroeh and Hazzea. At a crucial point in the succession crisis, Renly wants Eddard to move against Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella. Eddard refuses. When things get tense in Meereen, Skahaz wants the queen to kill one of the cupbearers. Dany refuses. These facts are worth considering on their own. They relate to the conflicts between honorable behavior and power politics.

They also are relevant to the “Usurper’s dogs” business. We discussed and debated the significance of Daenerys's discussion with Barristan about Lannister, Stark, and the killing of the Targaryen children. Dany is saying, "all dogs are just as guilty" when she suddenly remembers Hazzea. It's true that this doesn't prove that she now has had a complete change of opinion about the men who rebelled against her father. To me, however, her sudden and intense difficulty cannot easily be waved aside. It is a good indication that she is at least beginning to see things in a different light. This is particularly true when you consider the importance of the "children" theme. If there is a big problem with the "all dogs are just as guilty" argument, then it's obvious that some dogs may innocent, or at least less guilty. The man who spoke against killing her and her unborn child wouldn't seem as bad as the guy responsible for the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon. The dragon queen has not come to this conclusion. However, it is very possible that she will come to it. She may be headed in that direction.

Really excellent observations Parwan.

Dany's arc is so intertwined with that of motherhood and children, both playing an important role in her development and identity. We see her struggle to reconcile these roles with those of a conqueror "a dragon".

The example you used about her stopping herself from continuing to bash the "Usurper Dogs" when she realizes that she herself is responsible by proxy of Hazzea's death is a very good one and agree with your conclusion. When we were discussing it that was pretty much my position, she might not have changed her mind completely, but there was recognition there that things aren't as clear cut as they seem.

Don't want to jump to far ahead but we'll have to discuss the significance of her forgetting Hazzea's name while in the Dothraki sea.

[HexMachina]

I'll just start by saying sorry if any of this is incoherent or disorganised. I did mean to go back and check through it but haven't really had time.

The Queen’s Hand

Summary:

It is raining in Meereen, for which Barristan is grateful – it has helped to douse the worst of the fires. Quentyn Martell is dead, after three days of suffering whilst Missandei cared for him. Barristan decides that he should be returned to Dorne, but is unsure how he will do that. Barristan momentarily considers whether Daenerys may be dead, but hastily dismisses the idea, insisting to himself that he saw he riding the dragon, though each day makes it harder for him to believe this.

At dawn, the Shavepate arrives, already aware that Quentyn has died. He also informs Barristan that the Green Grace, whom Barristan had sent to treat with the Yunkai’I, has not yet returned to the city. The gates of Meereen have been closed and barred, but an angry mob of tokar wearers have gathered outside of the pyramid, demanding Hizdhar be released, Skahaz killed and for Barristan to slay the dragons. In addition, the Sons of the Harpy have resumed their killing – 29 in one night, up from 9 murders the previous day. Skahaz insists that the Sons want Hizdhar freed, and have also left messages on the walls regarding slaying the dragons – both literal and metaphorical (i.e. Daenerys). The families of Meereen have been charged their blood tax for the killings, but Skahaz does not think it will help.

The two men go down to the Council of Meereen. Barristan is acting as the Queen’s Hand, and also present at the council are; the commanders of the companies of freed men, Marselen, Symon Stripeback and Tal Toraq; Grey Worm and three of his sergeants, for the Unsullied; Jokin and the Widower for the Stormcrows; Rommo for the Dothraki; Hizdhar’s Pit Fighters; and Strong Belwas, who has survived the poisoning attempt, but has lost much weight.

The council is told of Quentyn’s death, and that the other Dornishmen have been imprisoned for the time being. The Fighting Pits are to remain closed for fear that they will attract the dragons. At present they have been stocked with livestock for the dragons to eat, and thus far there have been no reports of them eating people. None of the council believes that the Yunkai’i will not agree to the terms or release the hostages. When asked what he will do if the Yunkai’I refuse the terms, Barristan replies “Fire and Blood” – he will shatter the peace. The remainder of the meeting is given over to discussing battle plans.

After the meeting, Barristan visits the Dornishmen in their cell, to tell them of their friends’ death. Gerris is angry that Daenerys rejected him, but Yronwood is calmer, and understands that Barristan has come to ask something of them. If they will offer the Tattered Prince Pentos to turn his cloak, he will provide them with a ship to return to Dorne with Quentyn’s bones. Yronwood agrees on behalf of both of them.

The Green Grace finally returns, telling Barristan the his terms have been refused. The chapter ends with Skahaz informing them both that the Yunkai’I have begun to throw corpses over the walls.

Analysis:

He stood beside the parapets of the highest step of the Great Pyramid, searching the sky as he did every morning, knowing that the dawn must come and hoping that his queen would come with it. She will not have abandoned us, she would never leave her people, he was telling himself, when he heard the prince’s death rattle coming from the queen’s apartments.

Barristan remains stubbornly loyal to Daenerys and convinced that she will return, despite each day making this seem less likely that the last. He thinks that she will not abandon them, and he is right. Without dipping too much into our final chapter, we know that Daenerys tries desperately to return to Meereen and her people. Even though she had thrown off her “floppy ears” in the Dany IX, she still cares what happens to the people of Meereen. Barristan is correct in his thought process here, and it shows his fierce loyalty to her that he refuses to accept she is dead. However, we do see that the longer she is gone, the more doubtful Barristan becomes:

“No,” he said aloud. “Daenerys is not dead. She was riding that dragon. I saw it with mine own two eyes.” He had said the same a hundred times before … but every day that passed made it harder to believe. Her hair was afire. I saw that too. She was burning … and if I did not see her fall, hundreds swear they did.

I think this is the motivation for him to act as he does later in the chapter. He is becoming more and more doubtful that his Queen will return, and thus he wants to act in a way that will achieve her goals for her, and break the Slavers.

At his command, Quentyn Martell had been laid out in the queen’s own bed. He had been a knight, and a prince of Dorne besides. It seemed only kind to let him die in the bed he had crossed half a world to reach.

Barristan acts in a way here that in my opinion is very reminiscent of Daenerys. He knows that Quentyn is as good as dead already, but that does not stop him showing kindness to him in his suffering, just as Dany did for the victims of the Pale Mare. I also think this is a rather tragic yet poetic end to Quentyn’s arc – as Barristan says, he crossed half of the world to reach this bed, only to die in it.

Not for many years, child. Not since the Trident. Grand Maester Pycelle had once told him that old men do not need as much sleep as the young, but it was more than that. He had reached that age when he was loath to close his eyes, for fear that he might never open them again. Other men might wish to die in bed asleep, but that was no death for a knight of the Kingsguard.

Barristan is clearly feeling the weight of his years upon him. He is at a fairly advanced age at this point, and is suddenly burdened with the type of political intrigue and rule that as a member of the Kingsguard he has previously been able to avoid. A kingsguard generally follows orders, yet Barristan is now thrust into a position where he is in charge of a huge city on the brink of war. Small wonder that he feels his age pressing down on him.

Ser Barristan had known all that. “And the butcher’s tally?” he asked, dreading the answer.

“Nine-and-twenty.”

“Nine-and-twenty?” That was far worse than he could ever have imagined. The Sons of the Harpy had resumed their shadow war two days ago. Three murders the first night, nine the second. But to go from nine to nine-and-twenty in a single night …

“The count will pass thirty before midday. Why do you look so grey, old man? What did you expect? The Harpy wants Hizdahr free, so he has sent his sons back into the streets with knives in hand.”

The Sons of the Harpy have resumed their nightly murders, and we see just how much things have now escalated. This has become a huge terrorist movement within the city. They have their aims, and they mean to achieve them in whatever way they are able to. If this does not make it clear that Hizdhar is at the very least close to the Harpy, I don’t know what does. It is a shadow war, but if the city is to be put to rights, even if the Slaving Alliance is defeated, the Harpy must be unmasked.

‘Dragons must die,’ they wrote, and ‘Harghaz the Hero.’ ‘Death to Daenerys’ was seen as well, before the rain washed out the words.”

“The blood tax …”

“Twenty-nine hundred pieces of gold from each pyramid, aye,” Skahaz grumbled. “It will be collected … but the loss of a few coins will never stay the Harpy’s hand. Only blood can do that.”

“So you say.” The hostages again. He would kill them every one if I allowed it. “I heard you the first hundred times. No.”

Again, we see Barristan enforcing Dany’s earlier decision here. He knows how she feels about the killing of the cupbearers, and won’t go against that decision – he will not overstep his authority as the Hand, which I think is quite an admirable quality, though as I will mention later, it has its problems too. I am inclined to believe that Skahaz is wrong in this situation – killing the cupbearers would not help the situation, it would simply turn more people against them. I’ll point the Princess and the Queen novella for a moment to illustrate this. The Black’s murder of Jaehaerys (and it is implied that Maelor was killed too, at some point off-page) was one of several things that turned the feelings of the city against them. The murder of children is a heinous crime, and were the cupbearers to be killed, it would not be a great surprise imo if there was open conflict inside the city. Not something that a ruler wants with enemies outside of the gates.

“Queen’s Hand,” Skahaz grumbled with disgust. “An old woman’s hand, I am thinking, wrinkled and feeble. I pray Daenerys returns to us soon.” He pulled his brazen wolf’s mask down over his face. “Your council will be growing restless.”

Skahaz seems to have forgotten here that Daenerys took exactly the same stance as Barristan on this matter. She would not have killed the cupbearers either. He prays for her to return (or so he says) but he wouldbe in the exact same situation if she were present.

They rose when Ser Barristan came down the marble steps, Skahaz Shavepate at his side. Marselen of the Mother’s Men was present, with Symon Stripeback, commander of the Free Brothers. The Stalwart Shields had chosen a new commander, a black-skinned Summer Islander called Tal Toraq, their old captain, Mollono Yos Dob, having been carried off by the pale mare. Grey Worm was there for the Unsullied, attended by three eunuch serjeants in spiked bronze caps. The Stormcrows were represented by two seasoned sellswords, an archer named Jokin and the scarred and sour axeman known simply as the Widower. The two of them had assumed joint command of the company in the absence of Daario Naharis. Most of the queen’s khalasar had gone with Aggo and Rakharo to search for her on the Dothraki sea, but the squinty, bowlegged jaqqa rhan Rommo was there to speak for the riders who remained.And across the table from Ser Barristan sat four of King Hizdahr’s erstwhile guardsmen, the pit fighters Goghor the Giant, Belaquo Bonebreaker, Camarron of the Count, and the Spotted Cat. Selmy had insisted on their presence, over the objections of Skahaz Shavepate. They had helped Daenerys Targaryen take this city once, and that should not be forgotten. Blood-soaked brutes and killers they might be, but in their own way they had been loyal … to King Hizdahr, yes, but to the queen as well. Last to come, Strong Belwas lumbered into the hall.

This is Barristan’s Council with which he is ruling Meereen. Personally, I think this is a reasonable approach he has taken, in the absence of Daenerys. The majority of people are represented here – Dany’s sellswords, her freedmen, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Pit Fighters. There should perhaps be some Meereenese on the council (other than Skahaz) but then again, it is difficulty to know which of them are trustworthy, and which are too close to the Yunkai’i. But with the council he has, Barristan does get a fairly representative view owhen it comes to reaching a decision. I would be interested to know what others feel about this Council he has put together.

Or without her. Should Drogon return to Meereen without Daenerys mounted on his back, the city would erupt in blood and flame, of that Ser Barristan had no doubt. The very men sitting at this table would soon be at dagger points with one another. A young girl she might be, but Daenerys Targaryen was the only thing that held them all together.

I think this is a very apt quote. Throughout the re-read, we have learned that Dany is not the best ruler there will ever be, and indeed makes a number of disastrous mistakes. However, one thing she is, is a leader. A rallying point. A symbol of hope. Without her, the extremely diverse alliance which makes up her people would fall apart. We can compare this to Jon I suppose, who's arc in a Dance with Dragons closely parallels Dany's, as has been discussed in great detail elsewhere. Both Jon and Dany inspire the loyalty of and rule (or command) a very diverse group of peoples. It takes a special kind of person to achieve this, and it is not something that I personally feel can be learned - it is more an innate quality that people have. In my opinion, anyway.

“Their sellswords will want the gold, though. What are the hostages to them? If the Yunkishmen refuse, it will drive a blade between them and their hirelings.” Or so I hope. It had been Missandei who suggested the ploy to him. He would never have thought of such a thing himself. In King’s Landing, bribes had been Littlefinger’s domain, whilst Lord Varys had the task of fostering division amongst the crown’s enemies. His own duties had been more straightforward. Eleven years of age, yet Missandei is as clever as half the men at this table and wiser than all of them. “I have instructed the Green Grace to present the offer only when all of the Yunkish commanders have assembled to hear it.”

This is indeed a very clever plan, and is somewhat similar to Dany’s attempts to turn the sellswords’ cloaks outside of Yunkai. Once again, I’m struck by little Missandei’s intelligence and contributions to the discussions. She is a very bright girl, wise beyond her years, and very loyal to Daenerys. I very much hope she remains with Dany throughout the coming books, and continue to offer her advice. I'll be looking to see what goes on with her in Winds, actually.

Ser Gerris punched a wall. “I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that. He crossed the world to offer her his love and fealty, and she laughed in his face.”

“She never laughed,” said Selmy. “If you knew her, you would know that.”

“She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword.”

Gerris is very bitter here, and I think some of this comes from his wanting to deny any responsibility for Quentyn’s death. If he tried to look at things reasonably, he would understand that Dany never spurned Quentyn. Indeed, she showed him kindness, and even Quentyn acknowledged that. The plan was doomed from the start, because Dany had committed herself to the idea of remaining in Meereen before going to Westeros, unfortunately for Quentyn. There is definitely an element of guilt and grief playing into Gerris’ reaction here, and we know his reaction is unreasonable. Nevertheless, this is very telling of what kind of reaction the other Dornishmen would have if word of Quentyn's death were to get back to them...especially if it was distorted by rumours, and was not in fact the truth. Winds of Winter spoiler

like the rumours about Viserys death in the Arriane sample, I very much doubt Dorne will hear the way things

really happened in Meereen.

“What he did he did for love of Queen Daenerys,” Gerris Drinkwater insisted. “To prove himself worthy of her hand.”

The old knight had heard enough. “What Prince Quentyn did he did for Dorne. Do you take me for some doting grandfather? I have spent my life around kings and queens and princes. Sunspear means to take up arms against the Iron Throne. No, do not trouble to deny it. Doran Martell is not a man to call his spears without hope of victory. Duty brought Prince Quentyn here. Duty, honour, thirst for glory … never love. Quentyn was here for dragons, not Daenerys.”

Barristan does have the right of it here, despite Gerris’ protestations. As with all of her suitors so far (Xaro, Hizdhar, Quentyn, Victarion) none of them have sought her because they love her. They want her because she gives them a chance of power, and of strength. They want her dragons and they want her armies. The fact that she is beautiful is simply a bonus for them. Quentyn is no different to the others – he has sought her because of his duty to Dorne, and Dorne wants her for political and power reasons. Nobody wants Dany for who she is, which is part of why, I think, she deluded herself about her affair with Daario. She wanted so much to be loved as a woman, and not a Queen, and so, going back a little to Dany's earlier chapters, she told herself that was why Daario wanted her. Deep down of course, we know that she recognises this as untrue, but the "girl" allows herself this little fantasy. This can probably be contrasted with her relationship with Jorah, but I will leave that to someone with more “expertise” in that area. *ahem, BearQueen*

The Dornishmen, Hizdahr, Reznak, the attack … was he doing the right things? Was he doing what Daenerys would have wanted? I was not made for this. Other Kingsguard had served as Hand before him. Not many, but a few. He had read of them in the White Book. Now he found himself wondering whether they had felt as lost and confused as he did.

We see more bluntly here that Barristan truly is a Hand who only wishes to do as his Monarch wants – to speak with the Queen’s voice, to carry out her wishes. Whilst this is, in theory, what a Hand is supposed to do, we know that it is not necessarily the right way to go about things. For example, if we turn once again to Ned, we know that he refused Robert where it was important to do so, when he made orders that were cruel, or wrong, or stupid. If Barristan is not able to do that, he really should not be the Hand when Dany returns – he should be able to speak both for and against his Queen, if he is to truly help her be an efficient ruler. Nevertheless, this does again show that Dany inspires loyalty in those who serve her.

I would also like to point out the other Kingsguard that we know has been a Hand of the King – Criston Cole. He played the Game of Thrones in a dangerous way, and it ended with his death and a Kingdom torn apart by a brutal civil war. Having someone who is both Kingsguard and holds a high ranking political office is dangerous, as ambitions and personal agendas can easily interfere with one duty or the other.

Galazza Galare was attended by four Pink Graces. An aura of wisdom and dignity seemed to surround her that Ser Barristan could not help but admire. This is a strong woman, and she has been a faithful friend to Daenerys. “Lord Hand,” she said, her face hidden behind shimmering green veils. “May I sit? These old bones are weary.”

Galazzza Galare here presents an aura of wisdom and dignity, as Barristan says. She also shows herself as aged and vulnerable, and thus a threat to no-one. However, as we have seen with the likes of Olenna Tyrell, age is no guarantee that someone is no longer a threat. The image that the Green Grace presents to the world makes her seem unassuming and unthreatening, and who better to play the Game than the last person anyone would ever suspect?