Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

[SeanF]

Great analysis Helena.

The Sons of the Harpy have gone back to work. Assuming that the Slaver army is beaten, outside Meereen, I expect the victors will have no patience left with the Great Masters. Even if the child hostages are spared, I doubt if Victarion, Marsalen, Grey Worm, Tyrion etc. will have any hesitation in adopting a policy of heads, spikes, and walls, starting with the Green Grace and working downwards.

The Great Masters may come (too late) to see Dany as the best friend they had.

[BearQueen87]

I'll just start by saying sorry if any of this is incoherent or disorganised. I did mean to go back and check through it but haven't really had time.

The Queen’s Hand

Nice job, Helena!

This is now the fourth chapter inside the walls of Meereen, and I think the audience is a bit like Selmy at this point: where is Dany? And in the back of our heads we think, could she possibly be dead?? I like that with successive Selmy chapter, the danger of war gets ever more present but GRRM keeps Dany away for her own personal journey.

Barristan remains stubbornly loyal to Daenerys and convinced that she will return, despite each day making this seem less likely that the last. He thinks that she will not abandon them, and he is right. Without dipping too much into our final chapter, we know that Daenerys tries desperately to return to Meereen and her people. Even though she had thrown off her “floppy ears” in the Dany IX, she still cares what happens to the people of Meereen.

Barry is right that Dany won't abandon her people, and it's worth remembering that many of these people she won't leave behind were in the fighting pit that day, cheering for the return of their entertainment. This is something Dany remarks on in the Pit chapter. I think this is a sign of Dany's own compassion--she just cannot bring herself to reject those she considers under her care, even if she's confused about their own ideologies at times.

However, we do see that the longer she is gone, the more doubtful Barristan becomes:

Quote

I think this is the motivation for him to act as he does later in the chapter. He is becoming more and more doubtful that his Queen will return, and thus he wants to act in a way that will achieve her goals for her, and break the Slavers.

Barry doesn't have the advantage of having seen Dany after the pyre. He know it happened, that she came forth from the flames unhurt, but I think it's something you need to see to believe. This is why Jorah adamantly believes that Dany is alive and will return; he's seen her come through something similar before.

I also wonder if Barry thinks that by breaking the Slavers, Dany will return upon hearing the news.

Barristan acts in a way here that in my opinion is very reminiscent of Daenerys. He knows that Quentyn is as good as dead already, but that does not stop him showing kindness to him in his suffering, just as Dany did for the victims of the Pale Mare. I also think this is a rather tragic yet poetic end to Quentyn’s arc – as Barristan says, he crossed half of the world to reach this bed, only to die in it.

It reminds me of Dany holding Doreh's hand as she dies in the Red Waste.

Also, we talked maybe a thread or two ago about death by dragon fire and the description of Quentyn is fairly horrific:

After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus.

And of course Quentyn spent three days dying. Death by fire is pretty terrible and I think this plays into Barry's questions about if Dany is really alive: he saw her burning so how could she possibly be alive when Quentyn is in such a rough shape.

The Sons of the Harpy have resumed their nightly murders, and we see just how much things have now escalated. This has become a huge terrorist movement within the city. They have their aims, and they mean to achieve them in whatever way they are able to. If this does not make it clear that Hizdhar is at the very least close to the Harpy, I don’t know what does. It is a shadow war, but if the city is to be put to rights, even if the Slaving Alliance is defeated, the Harpy must be unmasked.

Agreed. Somehow word got out that Hizzy was taken by Selmy and the Harpy resumed her killing. My question is, who told? Reznak?

I am inclined to believe that Skahaz is wrong in this situation – killing the cupbearers would not help the situation, it would simply turn more people against them. I’ll point the Princess and the Queen novella for a moment to illustrate this. The Black’s murder of Jaehaerys (and it is implied that Maelor was killed too, at some point off-page) was one of several things that turned the feelings of the city against them. The murder of children is a heinous crime, and were the cupbearers to be killed, it would not be a great surprise imo if there was open conflict inside the city. Not something that a ruler wants with enemies outside of the gates.

Exactly. The rallying cry of the Sons of the Harpy would suddenly be "For the children!" (Irony...) They would seize this opportunity to show that Dany and her people do not have Meereeneese interests at heart.

This is Barristan’s Council with which he is ruling Meereen. Personally, I think this is a reasonable approach he has taken, in the absence of Daenerys. The majority of people are represented here – Dany’s sellswords, her freedmen, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Pit Fighters. There should perhaps be some Meereenese on the council (other than Skahaz) but then again, it is difficulty to know which of them are trustworthy, and which are too close to the Yunkai’i. But with the council he has, Barristan does get a fairly representative view owhen it comes to reaching a decision. I would be interested to know what others feel about this Council he has put together.

I think you're right that this is a wise course of action. Dany was too surrounded by Meereense, people with questionable loyalties. But here, we have men she bought (sellswords) and who's Captain is being held hostage, so they have a vested interest. You also have men who are VERY loyal to Dany--the freedmen, the Unsullied who refuse to fight for anyone other than their Mother, and her Dothraki who have pretty much followed her from the second she came forth from the pyre.

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't have any Meereneese on my council. I still have no idea who is loyal and who isn't. Shakaz has a personal agenda and I don't trust him at all, and really, neither does Barry. If Barry is intent on doing Dany's work, then to heck with political fairness of keeping a Meereeneese on council. Apart from the freedmen, I don't trust them.

I think this is a very apt quote. Throughout the re-read, we have learned that Dany is not the best ruler there will ever be, and indeed makes a number of disastrous mistakes. However, one thing she is, is a leader. A rallying point. A symbol of hope. Without her, the extremely diverse alliance which makes up her people would fall apart. We can compare this to Jon I suppose, who's arc in a Dance with Dragons closely parallels Dany's, as has been discussed in great detail elsewhere. Both Jon and Dany inspire the loyalty of and rule (or command) a very diverse group of peoples. It takes a special kind of person to achieve this, and it is not something that I personally feel can be learned - it is more an innate quality that people have. In my opinion, anyway.

Agreed. GRRM split the POVs in AFFC and ADWD, but he made sure that Jon and Dany's POV were in the same book, which he didn't have to do. There are a lot of parallels between the two and their ruling style--I think the biggest difference is that Dany lost a lot of hope because she had to chain her literal and metaphorical dragon. It changed her to the point where she begins giving into demands she doesn't believe. Jon stays the course. Of course, Jon also gets stabbed by his fellow brothers and we're not 100% sure if Dany was the intended recipient of the locusts...but in spite of the "For the Watch" moment, I think Dany needs to take a cue from Jon that you can't give in when you know it's the wrong course of action. And this political and personal: she shouldn't have allowed the ex-slavers to keep their wealth, she should have taken different hostages, she should never have married Hizzy, and she should never have bedded Daario.

I also like that Barry mixes up the Targaryen words. He says the city will erupt in blood and fire, instead of fire and blood. I think this is deliberate on GRRM's part...he wants the first time you hear those words to come from Dany when she remembers who she is.

Gerris is very bitter here, and I think some of this comes from his wanting to deny any responsibility for Quentyn’s death. If he tried to look at things reasonably, he would understand that Dany never spurned Quentyn. Indeed, she showed him kindness, and even Quentyn acknowledged that. The plan was doomed from the start, because Dany had committed herself to the idea of remaining in Meereen before going to Westeros, unfortunately for Quentyn. There is definitely an element of guilt and grief playing into Gerris’ reaction here, and we know his reaction is unreasonable. Nevertheless, this is very telling of what kind of reaction the other Dornishmen would have if word of Quentyn's death were to get back to them...especially if it was distorted by rumours, and was not in fact the truth.

Any ideas Dany had about allying herself with Dorne are shot.

Also, we come back to the laughing matter, something Parwan brought up in his last Barry POV. Dany did laugh, but she laughed at the story, not at Quentyn. But once again, Selmy says "she never laughed."

Barristan does have the right of it here, despite Gerris’ protestations. As with all of her suitors so far (Xaro, Hizdhar, Quentyn, Victarion) none of them have sought her because they love her. They want her because she gives them a chance of power, and of strength. They want her dragons and they want her armies. The fact that she is beautiful is simply a bonus for them. Quentyn is no different to the others – he has sought her because of his duty to Dorne, and Dorne wants her for political and power reasons. Nobody wants Dany for who she is, which is part of why, I think, she deluded herself about her affair with Daario. She wanted so much to be loved as a woman, and not a Queen, and so, going back a little to Dany's earlier chapters, she told herself that was why Daario wanted her. Deep down of course, we know that she recognises this as untrue, but the "girl" allows herself this little fantasy. This can probably be contrasted with her relationship with Jorah, but I will leave that to someone with more “expertise” in that area. *ahem, BearQueen*

:blushing: Why thank you. I was just about say..."but Jorah!"

I'll have a lot of say about Jorah and Dany when we get to her final POV, but for now..I do want to touch on the idea of Jorah and how he has sworn to ALL of Dany's aspects (woman, Queen, Mother of Dragons) which is in direct contrast to everyone else in ADWD.

I've been trying to figure out a way to inset this observation into our re-read but it was never really the proper time since it takes us all the way back to aGoT, but Helena has give me one, so I'll take it. I think Helena is absolutely right; no one on her list of suitors wants Dany for Dany. They see her as a means to an end--she has dragons and dragons are power. To quote Quaithe from the TV show: "dragons are fire made flesh and when they seem them, they shall lust." It isn't Dany they are lusting for, it's her dragons. None of them would swear to Dany, the woman or really even Dany, the Queen of Westeros. They would swear by her dragons, Dany just happens to come with them.

Jorah, by contrast, swore to all three of Dany's aspect--woman, rightful Queen of Westoers, and Mother of Dragons--and he does it in one chapter, one right after the next. I'll go in order. (all from Dany's final POV in GOT)

1. Swearing to the woman

Ser Jorah Mormont drew her aside as the sun was creeping toward its zenith. "Princess . . . " he began.

"Why do you call me that?" Dany challenged him. "My brother Viserys was your king, was he not?"

"He was, my lady."

"Viserys is dead. I am his heir, the last blood of House Targaryen. Whatever was his is mine now."

"My . . . queen," Ser Jorah said, going to one knee. "My sword that was his is yours, Dacnerys. And my heart as well, that never belonged to your brother. I am only a knight, and I have nothing to offer you but exile, but I beg you, hear me. Let Khal Drogo go. You shall not be alone. I promise you, no man shall take you to Vaes Dothrak unless you wish to go. You need not join the dosh khaleen. Come east with me. Yi Ti, Qarth, the JadeSea, Asshai by the Shadow. We will see all the wonders yet unseen, and drink what wines the gods see fit to serve us. Please, Khaleesi. I know what you intend. Do not. Do not."

This is Jorah swearing to the woman. This is not a proper Knight swearing to his Queen. Note that what he calls Dany changes from Princess (the girl) to his lady (a lover) to finally Queen, but that Queen comes after hesitation. He's pausing, trying to figure out what exactly to call Dany in this moment. He swears his sword but the speech is focused on his heart and his love for Dany. He even asks her to come away with him.

2. Swearing to the Queen

"Ser Jorah Mormont," she said, "first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well."

"You have it, my queen," Ser Jorah said, kneeling to lay his sword at her feet. "I vow to serve you, to obey you, to die for you if need be."

"Whatever may come?"

"Whatever may come."

"I shall hold you to that oath. I pray you never regret the giving of it." Dany lifted him to his feet. Stretching on her toes to reach his lips, she kissed the knight gently and said, "You are the first of my Queensguard."

This is pretty much exactly how a Knight would swear loyalty to his liege. Vows to serve, protect, and obey. Notice that Jorah doesn't hesitate in his title to Dany; here she is just simply "my queen." He lays the sword at her feet, a sign of taking her under his protection.

3. Swearing to the Mother of Dragons

When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away . . . yet she was unhurt.

The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals.

Wordless, the knight fell to his knees.

Dany's first instance of being the Mother of Dragons. She's something out of a classic painting, with babes suckling at her breasts. Jorah can't even speak, he just falls to his knees. He gets on his knees in every instance, actually. There are no words but Jorah (and everyone else) is sworn to her for all of time with this moment.

A lot of times on the boards, I see people writing Jorah off as just someone who wants to "get inside Dany's pants." There's no denying that he's in love with her and wants her. That's never been in question. But I don't think we can reduce it down something so simple cause these two aren't simple. And unlike Dany's other would be suitors--whether she bedded or rejected them--Jorah sees all aspects of Dany, and loves all aspects of her. He doesn't want her dragons, he wants her. All of her.

We see more bluntly here that Barristan truly is a Hand who only wishes to do as his Monarch wants – to speak with the Queen’s voice, to carry out her wishes. Whilst this is, in theory, what a Hand is supposed to do, we know that it is not necessarily the right way to go about things. For example, if we turn once again to Ned, we know that he refused Robert where it was important to do so, when he made orders that were cruel, or wrong, or stupid. If Barristan is not able to do that, he really should not be the Hand when Dany returns – he should be able to speak both for and against his Queen, if he is to truly help her be an efficient ruler. Nevertheless, this does again show that Dany inspires loyalty in those who serve her.

Agreed. Barry is the best choice right now but not the best choice over all.

Galazzza Galare here presents an aura of wisdom and dignity, as Barristan says. She also shows herself as aged and vulnerable, and thus a threat to no-one. However, as we have seen with the likes of Olenna Tyrell, age is no guarantee that someone is no longer a threat. The image that the Green Grace presents to the world makes her seem unassuming and unthreatening, and who better to play the Game than the last person anyone would ever suspect?

Never trust someone hidden behind a veil. Also, Selmy sent the GG to the Yunikshman to treat and then they started lobbing dead bodies over the wall. That's not suspicious at all. Also, interesting that the GG wanted Hizzy to go treat with the Masters. She's trying to get her number one guy out of his current condition.

Misc Notes

1. I really don't think Selmy is getting out of Meereen alive: "other men might wish to die in bed asleep, but that was no death for a knight of the Kingsguard." But at least he'll die a Knight.

2. Where did Quentyn's body go?

3. Biological warfare. At this point, just burn these guys.

[Parwan]

Great analysis Helena.

The Sons of the Harpy have gone back to work. Assuming that the Slaver army is beaten, outside Meereen, I expect the victors will have no patience left with the Great Masters. Even if the child hostages are spared, I doubt if Victarion, Marsalen, Grey Worm, Tyrion etc. will have any hesitation in adopting a policy of heads, spikes, and walls, starting with the Green Grace and working downwards.

The Great Masters may come (too late) to see Dany as the best friend they had.

It's true that the Great Masters are almost certainly in for a bad time. The men you mention are not likely to proceed "with malice toward none, with charity for all." As to exactly what will happen, that is hard to say. The situation which has developed is interesting in part because of its Byzantine complexity. Even the four men mentioned in your post have very different outlooks on things and very different objectives. I don't, for example, see any way for Victarion and Tyrion to get along with each other. Then there are characters like Hizdahr and Skahaz currently in Meereen; one of those guys may survive, but probably not both. There are people on the way--the Volantenes and the Dothraki. We have Moqorro and the dusky woman; they, in my opinion, have more meaningful power than does Victarion. Finally, one should not forget a character that I find interesting--Marwyn. He may have an important part in future events.

[BearQueen87]

It's true that the Great Masters are almost certainly in for a bad time. The men you mention are not likely to proceed "with malice toward none, with charity for all." As to exactly what will happen, that is hard to say. The situation which has developed is interesting in part because of its Byzantine complexity. Even the four men mentioned in your post have very different outlooks on things and very different objectives. I don't, for example, see any way for Victarion and Tyrion to get along with each other. Then there are characters like Hizdahr and Skahaz currently in Meereen; one of those guys may survive, but probably not both. There are people on the way--the Volantenes and the Dothraki. We have Moqorro and the dusky woman; they, in my opinion, have more meaningful power than does Victarion. Finally, one should not forget a character that I find interesting--Marwyn. He may have an important part in future events.

Just wanted to say: no one is going to get along with Victarion, ships or no. He's come to steal Queen Dany. Barry and Jorah and Grey Worm will have his head mounted before they let him near her, and Tyrion isn't about to let another Lord take his place beside Danny.

Marwyn is an enigma, wrapped inside a box that is full of secrets. I have no idea what he wants.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just wanted to say: no one is going to get along with Victarion, ships or no. He's come to steal Queen Dany. Barry and Jorah and Grey Worm will have his head mounted before they let him near her, and Tyrion isn't about to let another Lord take his place beside Danny.

Agree about Marwyin (to be honest, some times I forgot that character even exist...). But not about Victarion. Whatever his intentions are

In WoW he's already kicking ass. And Barristan has seen it himself. And a QG can't lie to his Queen.

Considering what we know about Victarion, we assume he's going to go and say "me Victarion. You dany. We sex". I've believed that myself. BUT not only is Victarion way smarter than we're meant to believe, but he now has Moqorro on his side. I mean, if we start believing he will try to get Dany by force, I personally doubt it.

In the same way, Dany isn't the monster people like Arianne and Gerris believe. She didn't laughed at Quentyn, she wouldn't laugh at Vic.

[BearQueen87]

Agree about Marwyin (to be honest, some times I forgot that character even exist...). But not about Victarion. Whatever his intentions are

In WoW he's already kicking ass. And Barristan has seen it himself. And a QG can't lie to his Queen.

Considering what we know about Victarion, we assume he's going to go and say "me Victarion. You dany. We sex". I've believed that myself. BUT not only is Victarion way smarter than we're meant to believe, but he now has Moqorro on his side. I mean, if we start believing he will try to get Dany by force, I personally doubt it.

In the same way, Dany isn't the monster people like Arianne and Gerris believe. She didn't laughed at Quentyn, she wouldn't laugh at Vic.

1)

in WOW do Barry et all know Vic's intentions to take Dany and her dragons?

2) Moqorro is playing Vic, I think. I suspect Moqorro doesn't intend for Vic to live very long. He just needed a ride.

3) Dany may not laugh at him, but I do not believe, for a moment, that she's going to marry him or have sex with him. In fact, I actually don't know if he'll be alive when Dany returns to Meereen.

[HexMachina]

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't have any Meereneese on my council. I still have no idea who is loyal and who isn't. Shakaz has a personal agenda and I don't trust him at all, and really, neither does Barry. If Barry is intent on doing Dany's work, then to heck with political fairness of keeping a Meereeneese on council. Apart from the freedmen, I don't trust them.

I disagree there. I understand the difficulty in choosing people who are trustworthy, but if you are going to rule a city state like Meereen, you should ideally have someone who represents its people advising you at least. Dany perhaps made too many compromises on that front, but I agree with her approach. Like the UK Parliament, or the EU Parliament. Having representatives of each locality is important, at least in my opinion

[BearQueen87]

I disagree there. I understand the difficulty in choosing people who are trustworthy, but if you are going to rule a city state like Meereen, you should ideally have someone who represents its people advising you at least. Dany perhaps made too many compromises on that front, but I agree with her approach. Like the UK Parliament, or the EU Parliament. Having representatives of each locality is important, at least in my opinion

Would the freedmen count as Meereeneese?

[HexMachina]

Would the freedmen count as Meereeneese?

I didn't really make myself clear I guess. And to clarify, I'm talking ideal situations here, not necessarily what is practical.

Horrible as slavery is, the ruling class of Meereen are still a part of its people. They have views too, and should at least have a voice on the Council if things are to be conducted in a fair manner, even if their ideas are not eventually followed. Their views will of course differ from those of the freedmen, but that does not mean they are always bad ideas the old nobility are making. By alienating the nobles and allowing them no say in the rule of the city, there would never be integration between the various factions of this alliance. It would be possible to not have them on the council if, as Dany did at first, Barristan were to hold Court where he hears their petitions. But he refuses to do so in the Queen's absence. Thus, if the Council of Meereen were to assume leadership of the city in the long-term, a few changes would need to be made.

[BearQueen87]

I didn't really make myself clear I guess. And to clarify, I'm talking ideal situations here, not necessarily what is practical.

Horrible as slavery is, the ruling class of Meereen are still a part of its people. They have views too, and should at least have a voice on the Council if things are to be conducted in a fair manner, even if their ideas are not eventually followed. Their views will of course differ from those of the freedmen, but that does not mean they are always bad ideas the old nobility are making. By alienating the nobles and allowing them no say in the rule of the city, there would never be integration between the various factions of this alliance. It would be possible to not have them on the council if, as Dany did at first, Barristan were to hold Court where he hears their petitions. But he refuses to do so in the Queen's absence. Thus, if the Council of Meereen were to assume leadership of the city in the long-term, a few changes would need to be made.

I getcha now. Yeah, even if Dany or Barry don't like working with them, the ruling class still live and work in the city and should be given a voice or else Dany/Barry would be accused of doing to them what they did to their former slaves: denying them freedoms.

But I do have to wonder, in a free and fair election (does that concept even exist in Essos? Or Planetos?...well, okay at the Wall it does) what happens if the nastiest old Ghiscari get put on Dany's council and they spend their entire lives making sure she never gets anything done out of spite and because they are trying to push their own agenda? Is it better to have equal representation or is it better to get stuff done?

Wow. I'm an American and saying this. I should probably go bake an apple pie or something now...

ETA: there's probably no answer to that question I posed...and I get what you're saying (ideal vs practical). But it is a lesson Dany needs to learn given that if she wants to be Queen in Westeros, she's going to have to work with people that may not like her and that she may not like.

[Parwan]

Regarding the Council, in fact regarding government in general, I will make some of the same points I made earlier. Dany took revenge when she should have taken control. The Great Masters were thoroughly defeated. Standard operating procedure should have been followed: The queen requires oaths of fealty from everyone. It is understood that a new day has dawned in Meereen. Loyal subjects will be rewarded. Others may not fare so well. Those who resort to armed resistance will regret it. One example: participating in a blockade of your own city is treason. Houses whose members take part in such actions are in deep trouble. It does not matter how old or "honorable" such a house is. In Westeros, King Tommen signed a bill of attainder, stripping Lord Edmure Tully of lands, incomes, and castle. Said lands, incomes, and castle were granted to Ser Emmon Frey and Lady Genna. There is no reason why Queen Daenerys could not make similar transfers. If the Meereenese do not wish to have wealth and power transferred from Loraq to Kandaq, then the Meereenese need to do a much better job of demonstrating their loyalty.

It isn't just Dany who has trouble grasping basic principles. In the current chapter, Skahaz refers to the twenty-nine hundred pieces of gold levied on each pyramid as "a few coins." He says it will not stay the Harpy's hand; the Great Masters will have no trouble paying. My thought here is, "Yeah, this story is really a fantasy. How many governments wouldn't think of increasing the tax?" If twenty-nine hundred doesn't hurt, then make it twenty-nine thousand. If necessary, raise the rates even more. Let your enemies learn the meaning of terms like "confiscation" and "expropriation."

[SeanF]

I'm sure Skahaz would suggest increasing the tax, were it not for the fact that he'd prefer to kill them.

[Parwan]

I'm sure Skahaz would suggest increasing the tax, were it not for the fact that he'd prefer to kill them.

Skahaz is not stupid, but he's not as smart as he thinks he is. Killing your opponents is not the only way of dealing with them. Usually, it is not the best way. Even King Bob realized this.

[SeanF]

I disagree there. I understand the difficulty in choosing people who are trustworthy, but if you are going to rule a city state like Meereen, you should ideally have someone who represents its people advising you at least. Dany perhaps made too many compromises on that front, but I agree with her approach. Like the UK Parliament, or the EU Parliament. Having representatives of each locality is important, at least in my opinion

I don´t think the people in charge - assuming the Slavers are beaten - will be thinking in such terms, after the battle of Meereen. They´ll just see an element of the population who are out to make trouble, and deal with that trouble - finally. Tyrion will think "what would my father do in this situation?" and act accordingly. Skahaz has a mountain of scores he wants to pay off. The leaders of the Freedmen are unlikely to speak up for the Great Masters. Victarion has only one way of dealing with dissent.

Dany won't be there , at least for a while. Missandei will be laughed at, if she advocates more lenient policies. Likewise Barristan, if he survives the battle. Skahaz would probably kick him upstairs, giving him some great honour, while removing him from effective power. Even if the leaders of Meereen are at odds with each other, most of them will be united about what to do with the Great Masters.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thank you for another great analysis Helena.

I agree that most men are coming to Dany because of her dragons, and I believe the dragons at this point in the story are very similar to the ring in LOTR, most people hear about it and lust for it. The fact that there is a horn that might be able to control one might make things even more dangerous.

My views on the councll, is that it was good set up by Barristan. The council is being ruled through Dany's name, is very similar to a constitutional monarchy.

Barristan use of Fire and Blood is very important here, many readers believe "fire and blood" means just burning everything in your path and spilling blood, however that is not true. Barristan uses it as symbol to represent an offensive approach to the enemy, and this is the same way Dany uses the term, it doesn't mean what it literally says.

With how the events are turning up, I wouldn't be shocked if at some point Dany's people (Barristan in particular) assume she is dead since she likely won't be there for awhile, I wonder if Barristan will go to Aegon should that happen.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1)

in WOW do Barry et all know Vic's intentions to take Dany and her dragons?

Definitely nope, but Barry isn't a fool. Remember what he told Quentyn's friends: "you're not here for love but because of the Dragons". I'm sure he knows why are they in Meereen.

[BearQueen87]

.

Barristan use of Fire and Blood is very important here, many readers believe "fire and blood" means just burning everything in your path and spilling blood, however that is not true. Barristan uses it as symbol to represent an offensive approach to the enemy, and this is the same way Dany uses the term, it doesn't mean what it literally says.

Quick aside but I seriously cannot wait for people to realize that fire and blood are also symbols for life and renewal. (y'know beyond just KILL THEM ALL!!!!!!!!)

Definitely nope, but Barry isn't a fool. Remember what he told Quentyn's friends: "you're not here for love but because of the Dragons". I'm sure he knows why are they in Meereen.

Ah thanks. It has been a really long time since I looked at that WOW sample.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Quick aside but I seriously cannot wait for people to realize that fire and blood are also symbols for life and renewal. (y'know beyond just KILL THEM ALL!!!!!!!!)

Ah thanks. It has been a really long time since I looked at that WOW sample.

:agree:

Also in this story, dragonfire has been used for to create several things besides destroying, we have Valyrian Steel, the buildings on Dragonstone and in Old Valyria, the topless towers.

Fire having the qualities of both creation and destruction, life and death is what makes it an important tool, as you said, for renewal.

[MoIaF]

I'm behind on this chapter, but I will catchup. Promise!

Just wanted to say that I can't wait until Sunday to discuss Dany's last chapter and I'm so happy Monday is a holiday. All day to discuss - I hope you're all up to it. :D

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Daenerys X: Mother of Dragons

“I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.” Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children.

Summary

The chapter begins perhaps about three weeks after the events of Daznik’s Pit. Dany has been living in Drogon’s cave since then flying on him by day and eating his scraps for food. After discovering a stream she finally decides to journey back to Meereen since Drogon won’t take her there. On her way she struggles for food and water and has multiple visions from Quaithe, Viserys and Jorah. After the Jorah one she notices a Dothraki scout and decides to hide, after he is gone she mounts Drogon and heads the direction the scout went. The chapter ends with Khal Jhaqo meeting her standing beside Drogon.

Observations

1. Dany appears to have ridden Drogon multiple times since her first flight.

2. Dany seems to have had a miscarriage due to the berries she ate

3. Dany’s visions aren’t due to her being mad but are from the condition she is in, which is that she is in the middle of the Dothraki sea without food and drinking unclean water.

4. It is not stated whther Dany has the Pale Mare or not, though I don’t think she does because the symptoms would’ve shown earlier.

5. Dany’s memories of Daznik’s Pit are a bit different from Barristan.

Analysis

Death and Rebirth: Daenerys as a Phoenix

Death, rebirth, renewal and the themes of the Phoenix are very prominent in Dany’s arc, both in her personal development and in what she is trying to achieve in Slaver’s Bay. The most popular example of this is when she entered the funeral pyre and came out unburnt and was reborn as a new person, there are also other instances such as her being reborn after Drogon appeared in her dream and also being reborn after her dream that occurred during the death of her son. What is important is that in all those instances is that the fire that occurs on Dany, doesn’t hurt her but acts more as a element of renewal, purification etc.

Joe Panek’s thoughts on the mythical nature of the Phoenix are awfully similar here, especially in the sense of the fire not being used to hurt the Phoenix, but more of renewal.

However, the Phoenix is a bird. And as birds can fly and travel
through the element of Air, they have been, since ancient times,
Symbolic representations of mind and Spirit. Therefore, when the
Phoenix "gives up" its old and completed self, it does so because
it is ready to be transformed and reborn unto a much higher realm.
The Phoenix Symbolizes the ultimate Act of Creative Destruction,
Sacrifice, and rebirth within the sublime realm of mind and Spirit.

….

Symbolically, Fire represents light, enlightenment, and illumination.
The Fire in which the Phoenix Sacrifices and renews itself is not
the fire of physical destruction which is portrayed in paintings. It is
the Spiritual, Alchemical Fire indicative of Purification, Wisdom,
Transformation, and Rebirth; it is the "Fire which does not burn".

Similar to Dany, in all those instances there is “Fire which does not burn” but actually renews, transforms and purifies her and it all has to do with the association of dragons.

Now moving back to Dany X, we have a similar situation of a rebirth for Dany, in Daznak’e pit her hair was burnt by Drogon yet she was unhurt.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me.

Now keep in mind I’m not suggesting Dany is fireproof, I’m looking at this on a more symbolic level and seeing dragonfire or fire being associated with dragons such as the pyre being more of a form of rebirth and renewal such as her dream in AGOT.

There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

The chapter also confirms this theme by Dany naming Drogon’s cave as the place she was born

The hill loomed larger down here. Dany had taken to calling it Drag-onstone, after the ancient citadel where she’d been born.

So we can look at this as Dany being born on the Dothraki sea at Dragonstone, just like her being born on the original one.

So more of a conclusion to all my thoughts, I see Drogon burning Dany in Daznik’s pit as another form of rebirth for her and it is completed on the Dothraki sea, which is symbolized by her appearing on “Dragonstone” on the Dothraki sea which is symbolically where she was born (so reborn). Also her hair being burnt and having to grow again is another symbol of her completing a cycle and starting again.

Nature of the Dragon bond: Flight of a rider and his or her dragon

The dragon bond is one of the most mysterious aspects of magic within the series, especially since Valyria was destroyed by the Doom and all of the Targaryen dragons died hundreds of years ago. With Dany being the one to bring them back after many years and also recently becoming a dragonrider in her own right, opens a chance for us to explore the nature of this bond.

From the last chapter and this one, we get to see first hands experience of a rider riding a dragon through Dany’s point of view. The feeling in the last chapter was a very euphoric feeling from Dany. This leads me into believing that the action of a rider riding his or her dragon triggers a form of ecstasy for both parties. The simplest definition of ecstasy is an overwhelming feeling of great happiness to the extent where the rest of the world seems to disappear. In Psychological terms, this would be called an altered state of consciousness. This is also exactly how Dany feels when riding Drogon from the quotes below:

On Drogon’s back she felt whole. Up in the sky the woes of this world could not touch her. How could she abandon that?

This seems exactly like the definition of ecstasy everything around gone except the feeling she got.

And then we also see Dany contrasting the event to some negative things she experiences on Dragonstone.

A few aches, an empty belly, chills by night … what does it matter when you can fly? I would do it all again.

This again shows how powerful the feeling is to the extent that Dany wouldn’t mind living on a harsh place such as Drogon’s cave (Dragonstone) as long as she will continue to experience the ecstasy of flying.

She then again contrasts the risk of falling off Drogon with the feeling of flying.

If I fall and die, it will still have been worth it, she had thought

This also is another example that shows how powerful the feeling was, considering she elevates the feeling as a priority over the risk of her falling off Drogon.

Also if we switch gears into the past (The Rogue Prince), the feeling of riding a dragon was revered by Dany’s ancestors.

During her final hour, it is said, Lady Laena rose from her bed and made her way from her room, intent on reaching Vhagar that she might fly one last time before she died. Her strength failed her on the tower steps, however, and it was there she collapsed and died.

Even on verge of death Laena wanted to experience the feeling of riding a dragon before she dies, which shows that the feeling a rider experiences whiles riding a dragon is one big of a deal.

This also leads me into speculating at least based on what we have seen from the text, that the action of sitting on a dragon and flying is a magical experience, it would also explain why a dragon allowing you to fly it, is some form of acceptance for a some sort of magic to take place. Meaning if the magic doesn’t take place the dragon will shrug you off whiles in flight like Joffrey in The Princess and the Queen and also if you aren’t good enough for the magic to take place the dragon won’t allow you to sit on it and ride it. I believe the magic occurs with those that have bonded with the dragon like Dany or those that the dragon bonds during the action of sitting and flying like Aemon and Vhagar in the Rogue prince.

Behavioural analysis on Dragons

Dany’s flight on Drogon also gives us the opportunity to analyze some of the behaviours of this mythical creature.

The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns. Daenerys made do with a word and a whip. Mounted on the dragon’s back, she oft felt as if she were learning to ride all over again. When she whipped her silver mare on her right flank the mare went left, for a horse’s first instinct is to flee from danger. When she laid the whip across Drogon’s right side he veered right, for a dragon’s first instinct is always to attack. Sometimes it did not seem to matter where she struck him, though; sometimes he went where he would and took her with him. Neither whip nor words could turn Drogon if he did not wish to be turned. The whip annoyed him more than it hurt him, she had come to see; his scales had grown harder than horn.

From this excerpt, we learn that whipping hardly affects a dragon which would mean Dany taming Drogon in the previous chapter had more to do with her conquering her fear rather than using a whip. It also shows how dragons are different than most animals, as fear is used during most methods of taming wild animals.

Dany also describes her experience as “learning to ride again” which might mean this is her second mount, from the Undying telling her that she would have three mounts.

Thrice that day she caught sight of Drogon. Once he was so far off that he might have been an eagle, slipping in and out of distant clouds, but Dany knew the look of him by now, even when he was no more than a speck. The second time he passed before the sun, his black wings spread, and the world darkened. The last time he flew right above her, so close she could hear the sound of his wings. For half a heartbeat Dany thought that he was hunting her, but he flew on without taking any notice of her and vanished somewhere in the east. Just as well, she thought.

This is another interesting behavior of Drogon in this chapter. My guess is that he was continuously checking on Dany as a means of protection just as we have seen him do before in the house of the undying, but Dany at that point hasn’t fully connected with her inner dragon so she saw it in a different light. I don’t think there are any other possible reasons as to why he did this, unless anyone has anymore I’ll leave it at this for conversation in the thread.

Remember who you are…..a dragon: A look into dragons, blood and fire.

A lot of the major focus in this chapter lies on the Daenerys Targaryen remembering who she is. During this re-read we’ve seen occasions in ADWD where other characters such as Quaithe and Daario asked similar questions to Dany around the theme of “Remebering who she is” as a reader you’ll most likely ask yourself “What did Daenerys forget?” and I believe the answer is as we’ve suspected all along which is that she forgot that she is a dragon.This then leads to several more interesting questions, such as “What does a dragon mean to Daenerys?” So what I will try to do is put together all the relevant points of Dany’s encounter with “the dragon” in ADWD and try and tie them down with this final chapter to give us a more better understanding.

From ADWD Daenerys II we learn a lot on how Dany views the concept of her being a dragon.

Safe. The word made Dany’s eyes fill up with tears. “I want to keep you safe.” Missandei was only a child. With her, she felt as if she could be a child too. “No one ever kept me safe when I was little. Well, Ser Willem did, but then he died, and Viserys … I want to protect you but … it is so hard. To be strong. I don’t always know what I should do. I must know, though. I am all they have. I am the queen … the … the …” “… mother,” whispered Missandei. “Mother to dragons.” Dany shivered. “No. Mother to us all.” Missandei hugged her tighter. “Your Grace should sleep. Dawn will be here soon, and court.”

From this quote we see that Dany views the concept of her being the mother of dragons as the only way she can protect her people. This is similar to the last of AGOT where she swears an oath to her people to protect them before she entered the pyre, and I believe the reason she believed was ready to carry that burden is because she knew she would become the Mother of Dragons and hence through that a protector for her people. We also have the case where she then uses her role as the mother of dragons to free slaves in Astapor. However as Dany has now seen the dangers dragons have she fears being the Mother of Dragons and is now confused on how to protect her people.

She also then starts to see the concept of “Dragon” in a negative light and believes a dragon can’t protect people because it also hurts people.

She was the blood of the dragon. She could kill the Sons of the Harpy, and the sons of the sons, and the sons of the sons of the sons. But a dragon could not feed a hungry child nor help a dying woman’s pain. And who would ever dare to love a dragon?

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand.

So at this point Daenerys has painted the concept of a “dragon” as something she can’t use any more to protect her people because it would cause too much harm.

Later in the story despite Dany now looking at “the dragon” in a negative way, she is conflicted based on her previous experiences of the identity, which were all in good light such as Drogon rescuing her from the house of the undying and Drogon helping her to defeat the Masters in Astapor in order to free slaves.

So as time goes on, we find that Dany’s main aim in the story is to still protect her people (Stopping the killings in Meereen and stopping all the military forces from attacking Meereen) however she believes that the concept of being a dragon and doing good to people are mutually exclusive and can’t work together, so she uses a “different” approach to bring peace.

So before heading back into the final chapter, I believe it is important to note that Dany’s view is wrong, and even GRRM shows so in Bran’s POV from Meera and Jojen.

“Up and down,” Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, “then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran.” “Yesterday you said you loved them.” “Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say.” Bran made a face at her. “But you just said you hated them.” “Why can’t it be both?” Meera reached up to pinch his nose. “Because they’re different,” he insisted. “Like night and day, or ice and fire.” “If ice can burn,” said Jojen in his solemn voice, “then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one.”

Just because the identity of dragon, blood and fire can do bad doesn’t mean that identity can’t do good, why can’t it be both?

So after flying on Drogon from Meereen , Dany has three encounters that try to remember her who she is, which is symbolized as the dragon. The first is Quaithe:

“Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?” Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. “Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”

After that Dany still continues her journey to go to Meereen , she then has a vision from her late brother Viserys:

I did wait. For my crown, for my throne, for you. All those years, and all I ever got was a pot of molten gold. Why did they give the dragon’s eggs to you? They should have been mine. If I’d had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words.

After this Dany still continues her journey to Meereen but finally admits that it isn’t her home, the last encounter is with her bear Jorah Mormont:

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. “Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

The first vision is magical since Quaithe uses glass candles however I see the last two more based on Dany’s subconscious of what people she love, would say regarding the dragon identity. The visions also symbolize the inner conflict I talked about earlier, which is about her not accepting that she can use fire and blood/ the identity of a dragon for the good intentions she has. However the fact that she replies to Ser Jorah when he tells her “Remember your words” shows that she is starting to give it a second thought. What’s also important to note is that Dany only started to give into consideration after Mormont’s vision, which shows how much value his words have to her and how important he is to her.

Becoming the Mother of Dragons…. again

Though Dany doesn’t announce in the chapter that she is embracing Fire and Blood, based on the themes of getting closer to Drogon, and saying her House words most readers will agree that she is heading there. Another sign to this is the parallel between this chapter and Dany’s final AGOT chapter, which is also about embracing the dragon/fire and blood.

Dany's last chapter of ADWD is very similar to Daenerys IX in AGOT.

First AGOT:

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. “What is it? I must know. Drogo…and my child.’.’ Why had she not remembered the child until now? “My son…Rhaego…where is he? I want him.”

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself.

ADWD:

“Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …” Dany could not recall the child’s name.

That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. “I will never

have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.”

In both cases she wakes from a fevered dream, can't remember a child but remembers her dragon/dragons and doesn't cry after both events. She also wakes to a miscarriage in both events.

Dragons Plant No Trees

Dany's metaphoric meaning of planting trees is not about "establishing a new structure" or "building a new system", this seems to be a common misconception of the meaning of planting trees in Dany's arc, and is often used to state Dany has given up on ruling. It has more to do with her method of trying to bring peace or dealing with her enemies

First of all, the "Dany building a new structure" isn't one of the overarching themes in ADWD, the main theme is about her trying to bring peace in Meereen thus ending the Harpy's killings. The emphasis is hardly put on her building a structure, the emphasis is on which way or method is she going to bring peace within Meereen, that is her main goal.

When planting trees are mentioned metaphorically its mostly in terms of olive trees and we all know olives are the universal symbol of peace. When Dany took over Meereen the Meerenese ended peace within the city and thus the Harpy's killings came. Burning olives would meaning they are ending peace once Dany came.

Olives had been grown along the shores of Slaver’s Bay for centuries; but the Meereenese had put their ancient groves to the torch as Dany’s host advanced on them, leaving her to cross a blackened wasteland.

This is where Dany has to find a new method to bring peace, in other words stop the Harpy's killings. She uses the method of "marriage" to Hizdahr which is long just like planting and may bear fruit or it may not. Dany even symbolizes her marriage with Hizdahr to bring peace with planting a tree to bear olive.

“Hizdahr zo Loraq is most fortunate in you … and you in him, if I may be so bold as to say. This match will save our city, you will see.” “So we pray. I want to plant my olive trees and see them fruit.” Does it matter that Hizdahr’s kisses do not please me? Peace will please me. Am I a queen or just a woman?

When the issue of "Dragons plant no trees" comes up, it isn't about "dragons don't build structures" , it's that dragons don't use the planting method to bring peace. Or in Dany's mind eye she can bring peace through another way.

A missing King?

Through out ADWD we have had teases that Dany has a missing King, one from Tyrion where he sees the Valyrian Sphinx and one from Irri where she says a Khaleesi must have a Khal. However her missing king is actually her dragon, Drogon. Before Drogon comes the grass is described as having no king.

The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her.

But when he arrives it is shown that he is the King,

When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him.

The closer, the better

The theme of this chapter is about Dany remembering who she is, and I believe that is symbolized through Drogon, as the chapter goes on their bond gets stronger and closer.

It starts with Dany eating off his scraps:

…she had survived as best she could on the dragon’s leavings, on burned bones and chunks of smoking meat, half-charred and half raw.

And she ends eating meal with him:

Dany, starved, slid off his back and ate with him, ripping chunks of smoking meat from the dead horse with bare, burned hands.

She starts with no control:

When she laid the whip across Drogon’s right side he veered right, for a dragon’s first instinct is always to attack. Sometimes it did not seem to matter where she struck him, though; sometimes he went where he would and took her with him. Neither whip nor words could turn Drogon if he did not wish to be turned.

To better control:

When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke.

Her bare legs tightened around the dragon’s neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky. Her whip was gone, so she used her hands and feet and turned him north by east, the way the scout had gone. Drogon went willingly enough; perhaps he smelled the rider’s fear.

She also refers to him as her dragon for the first time in the chapter at the end.

Daario and Hizdahr, From Queen to Khaleesi

I posited earlier in the re-read that Daario symbolizes Dany as a dragon whiles Hizdahr symbolizes her being chained, this presented well in the chapter as Dany makes the distinction between them, and Daario would eating with her like Drogon whiles hIzdahr would find it horrifying just like the way Dany used to think of her dragons earlier in the story.

In Meereen I was a queen in silk, nibbling on stuffed dates and honeyed lamb, she remembered. What would my noble husband think if he could see me now? Hizdahr would be horrified, no doubt. But Daario … Daario would laugh, carve off a hunk of horsemeat with his arakh, and squat down to eat beside her.

It also shows that Dany is not a traditional Queen in silk but more of a Khal/Khaleesi.

Conclusion

The chapter ends with Dany changing her direction from Meereen to head north-east to meet the Dothraki riders, though one thing is for sure, I don’t think she is heading to Mereen at the moment as she clearly knows Drogon doesn’t want to go there. Where she ends up, we’ll have to wait until the next novel.