ummester Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Thoros may not be a good example as a non theist, thinking on it. He kind of is - he's more like a Catholic priest that may doubt the reality of God but still sees God's work all around. He's a fuzzy theist :D I don't think Stannis ever truly becomes a theist though, his beliefs remain pragmatic, or agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 But if an Egyptian scholar claimed Hapi existed because the Nile did, would you say that he's a theist? Or just an ignorant pragmatist? Because while Stannis may think there is evidence for R'hllor's existence, there isn't any real evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I thought Stannis believed that Mel's god caused real events, seeing her and her god as allies, as you state in you op - without ever searching for truth in anything other than what occurs. I also thought he only ever viewed R'hllor as Mel's god, never his. Say your Stannis and I'm Mel (I'd make an ugly Mel, but just saying :) ) I say to you that R'hllor has granted me the power to make assassin shadows from my womb to kill your enemies. Then I make an assassin shadow and you hear tales about them stabbing your enemies. It depends what you believe from there whether you become theistic or not. If you just believe that I made shadow assassins from my womb, because I believe in R'hllor - then you remain pragmatic. If you start to believe in the unique power of R'hllor, then you are turning to theism. You can believe there is a truth to my relationship with R'hllor, without being a theist yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 OK :)I don't get 'the unique power of R'hllor' part, though. Could you explain more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 You have to believe in R'hllor to be a theist, not just believe in the truth of R'hllor (or some power) working through Mel. In a simpler way - does Stannis pray of his own accord, or does he leave the praying, and praying advice, to Mel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Stannis gave up on the gods when he saw his parents die on now in the north he is beginning to believe in the one god Rhllor . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 You have to believe in R'hllor to be a theist, not just believe in the truth of R'hllor (or some power) working through Mel. In a simpler way - does Stannis pray of his own accord, or does he leave the praying, and praying advice, to Mel? He probably wants to avoid praying and just tells Mel to "pray harder". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 He probably wants to avoid praying and just tells Mel to "pray harder". That's how I read him as a character. He views Mel and her god as assets to his cause but remains pragmatic with regards to his own beliefs. In fact, he may not believe anything he does not count as a truth - he's just too hard wired, after his parents dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 Stannis gave up on the gods when he saw his parents die on now in the north he is beginning to believe in the one god Rhllor . Nope. Read my OP. Stannis has been largely ignoring R'hllor since Davos VI ASOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 That's how I read him as a character. He views Mel and her god as assets to his cause but remains pragmatic with regards to his own beliefs. In fact, he may not believe anything he does not count as a truth - he's just too hard wired, after his parents dying. At this point in the books he has seen others use magic without any connection to R'hllor so that probably plays a big part in him not believing. He just needs burn a few traitors here and there to keep the Queen's men satisfied. However even that might change if he get's the North on his side, because he wouldn't have to rely so heavily on the Queen's men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 In a simpler way - does Stannis pray of his own accord, or does he leave the praying, and praying advice, to Mel?Well, he may not be 'praying', but he stares into fires during the blizzard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 At this point in the books he has seen others use magic without any connection to R'hllor so that probably plays a big part in him not believing. He just needs burn a few traitors here and there to keep the Queen's men satisfied. However even that might change if he get's the North on his side, because he wouldn't have to rely so heavily on the Queen's men. I agree that the Queen's Men become less and less important with more and more Northmen, but I believe Stannis still believes in the existence of R'hllor, since he looks into fires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 I agree that the Queen's Men become less and less important with more and more Northmen, but I believe Stannis still believes in the existence of R'hllor, since he looks into fires. I think that he still believes in the power, but less in the existence of this all powerful deity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 I think that he still believes in the power, but less in the existence of this all powerful deity. Of course in ADWD Stannis doesn't believe in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent R'hllor. Doesn't mean he doesn't believe in R'hllor at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Of course in ADWD Stannis doesn't believe in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent R'hllor. Doesn't mean he doesn't believe in R'hllor at all. Sorry. I meant less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 Sorry. I meant less. ? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Well, he may not be 'praying', but he stares into fires during the blizzard. I tend to do that as well, its quite comforting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 I tend to do that as well, its quite comfortingWell, with the implication being that he's trying to get divine help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitron Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."Lucius Annaeus Seneca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitron Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 If they had codified laws, wouldn't they have courts to interpret those laws and lawyers to make arguments to those courts to try to influence those interpretations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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