Stannis and Religion

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Stannis’s relationship with religion is one of the countless things that make him such a fascinating and complex character. Sadly, this topic has been riddled with misconceptions. So this is an analysis of Stannis’s religious beliefs.

Stannis the Atheist

I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men.

His reason for his atheism is the problem of evil. The problem of evil itself does not disprove the existence of a deity: it only disproves the existence of an omnibenevolent deity. However, once Stannis had realized that the Seven could not be benevolent, he must have begun to doubt other tenets of the Faith of the Seven.

“The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow.”

Once he applied some good old logic, he knew that the Seven, a supposedly omnipotent deity, did absolutely nothing. He must then have concluded that the Seven did not exist: all things, both good and evil, were created by mankind.

The Red Hawk

After his flight to Dragonstone, Stannis encountered Melisandre of Asshai. Stannis is a pragmatist, and he must have seen that many of his men were converting, and others were:

Half my knights are afraid even to say her name, did you know? If she can do nothing else, a sorceress who can inspire such dread in grown men is not to be despised. A frightened man is a beaten man. And perhaps she can do more. I mean to find out.

Stannis was probably considering a pretended conversion to R'hllorism long before the prologue of ACOK.

Once Stannis sees that Melisandre can survive poisoning, he converts. He is probably quite sure of the fact that R’hllor exists; after all, Melisandre says so, and Melisandre can do magic. However,

Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed.

Stannis clearly believes in the existence of R’hllor, but thinks of him only as a supernatural and very powerful being that fervently wants to be worshipped.

Stannis is the weakest of the five kings. However, he has ships, and he has Melisandre…..and if he has Melisandre, he also has R’hllor. Stannis must win his throne, and to do so, he must please the Red God, and her messenger, the Red Woman. So Stannis begins a series of reforms to please his new ally. He burns the Seven. He makes a new crown. He changes his sigil. He accepts Lightbringer. And all the while, he hopes that R’hllor will make a good ally.

Once Melisandre and, by extension R’hllor, successfully kill Renly and Cortnay, Stannis must have felt quite invincible. Who could dare defy his new ally, the Red God? As Stannis sailed up the Blackwater Bay, he must have been confident of his victory (Not bringing Melisandre to the battlefield was probably a manifestation of this confidence). He had thousands of Queen’s Men in his army. How could R’hllor, both supremely powerful and obsessed with being worshipped, allow his followers to die? Stannis must have been sure that he would win the Iron Throne that day. He may not have Melisandre…but he has R’hllor!

R’hllor’s True Power

Stannis lost.

His ships were all burnt, his men all lost. The banner of the flaming stag was left to rot in the Gullet.

Stannis has lost, and R’hllor has not supported him. Why? Stannis concludes that

1) R’hllor is displeased that he did not bring Melisandre to the battlefield

2) R’hllor is much weaker than he thought

At the time, there is no real evidence for either conclusion. However, what can Stannis do? Even if R’hllor is weak, he and Melisandre are the last assets left to him. So he has to rely on Melisandre, and whatever plan she comes up with:

”The guards keep all others away, even the queen and his little daughter. Servants bring meals that no one eats.” He leaned forward and lowered his voice. “Queer talking I have heard, of hungry fires within the mountain, and how Stannis and the red woman go down together to watch the flames. There are shafts, they say, and secret stairs down into the Mountain’s heart, into hot places where only she may walk unburned.”

Melisandre’s plan is human sacrifice, or specifically, the sacrifice of Edric Storm, an innocent young boy. Stannis is still a man who aspires to be just and fair. Sacrificing his innocent nephew is not at all justice, nor duty. But he must win the Iron Throne, and Melisandre promises that human sacrifice will win him the Throne. But R’hllor may actually be too weak to help him much. So what should Stannis do?

Stannis decides to make two tests of R’hllor’s power: first with the leeches, second with Davos. It is hardly a secret that Davos detests the Queen’s Men and their god, and especially Melisandre. If he makes Davos Hand of the King, will R’hllor be angered enough to kill Davos?

In the end, the leeches worked, but Davos survived, although he was openly gathering a force (the King’s Men) to oppose the followers of R’hllor. So Stannis is still unsure about R’hllor’s true power. However, Stannis no longer has time to test the powers of the Red God; he must act quickly, and Melisandre says that the world will die if Edric lives. So after four months of agonious thinking, he chooses to sacrifice Edric.

But Davos did smuggle out Edric. Let’s see Melisandre’s reaction:

Davos watched Melisandre’s pale, heart-shaped face. He saw the flicker of dismay there, the sudden uncertainty. She did not see it!

Stannis must have noticed this. Stannis has accidentally found out that R’hllor is indeed much weaker than he thought. Though Davos must die for treason, the way Stannis chooses to execute Davos, as well as the fact that he chose to spare Davos in the end, is a huge “Fuck you” to R’hllor while also being a mark of his respect for Davos:

Stannis slid Lightbringer from its scabbard.[…]Lord Seaworth is a man of humble births, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights.

As far as Stannis knows, Davos Seaworth foiled R’hllor’s plan. And Stannis refuses to burn him, in the end spares him, doesn’t even demote him, and goes around telling other people how great Davos is. This is pretty dickish behavior to R’hllor. So Stannis is now confident that R’hllor is far from omnipotent, and he may suspect that R’hllor is not, in fact, real.

Stannis and the North

In Davos VI, ASOS, Stannis realized that R’hllor was either weak (being neither omnipotent nor omniscient) or imaginary. So how is his religious behavior in the North?

Floating above them were the largest banners yet, royal standards as big as sheets: a yellow one with long pointed tongues that showed a flaming heart, and another like a sheet of beaten gold, with a black stag prancing and rippling in the wind.

Stannis now uses the original Baratheon banners too. Another ‘Fuck you’ to R’hllor. It is interesting to note that Catelyn describes Stannis’s new banner as the stag having “shrunken” in ACOK. Now, the stag is “as big as sheets.” I think the stag represents the status of the King’s Men in Stannis’s army.

Stannis forced the wildlings to burn weirwoods, and his men chanted “One god, one realm, one king!” However, the wildlings were clearly not forced to convert, as most wildlings continue to worship the Old Gods after coming south. So why did he force the weirwood burnings? The reason is that the wildlings are a savage folk, who could be a menace to the North since they are now south the Wall. The weirwood burnings and fMance’s burning are to ‘tame’ the wildlings, to make them fear Stannis so they cannot turn on the Watch as easily, and also to make them accept Stannis as their king; Stannis has defeated and burned Mance, the most powerful man beyond the Wall, and wildlings follow power.

Stannis leaves Melisandre and Axell Florent on the Wall.

Jon turned to Melisandre. "My lady, fair warning. The old gods are strong in those mountains. The clansmen will not suffer insults to their heart trees.” That seemed to amuse her. “Have no fear, Jon Snow, I will not trouble your mountain savages and their dark gods. My place is here with you and your brave brothers." That was the last thing Jon Snow would have wanted, but before he could object, the king said, “Where would you have me lead these stalwarts if not against the Dreadfort?”

Stannis and Melisandre have clearly discussed Melisandre being left behind before, since Stannis does not object at all and is not surprised. So Stannis probably knows that Melisandre will hinder his relationships with the North. Same with Axell Florent. Now, Stannis values Northern swords more than divine favor.

Stannis has gained the trust of the Mountain clans, who are proud in their religion. This means that Stannis is now willing to tolerate the Old Gods, which would have been impossible in ACOK.

However, Stannis’s army is caught in a huge blizzard.

"A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire," Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever.” “Half my army is made up of unbelievers.” Stannis had replied. “I will have no burnings. Pray harder.”

Stannis again shows that he values Northmen more than R’hllor or the Queen’s Men.

”The king’s half-blind from staring into fires.

But he also looks into fires, and eventually burns three cannibals. Why? The answer is that Stannis is desperate. He must keep the Northmen and the Queen’s Men together, and divine help would be nice. So he pleases the Northmen by advancing to save the Ned’s little girl and kill the Boltons, and by not burning a Northman, and he pleases the Queen’s Men by burning three Stormlanders as a sacrifice. And he asks for divine help from R’hllor, but he will not burn a Northman; R’hllor may not exist, but Northern swords do.

Summary

Stannis was originally an atheist after his parent’s death. He accepted the fact that R’hllor existed in ACOK, but he did not think it was benevolent: he saw it as a powerful ally, and tried to please it throughout ACOK. After the Blackwater, he began to doubt R’hllor’s power, and the fact that R’hllor was not as powerful as he thought was realized when Melisandre failed to see Edric’s escape. In the North, Stannis constantly takes Northern swords over Queen’s Men or R’hllor, but still tries to get help from R’hllor when desperate.

[Mladen]

As seen from the hawk story, for Stannis religion is nothing more than a tool for obtaining a goal. He is not believer per se, he just recognizes that Mel has powers that can help him becoming King so he goes with it. In his heart, Stannis basically believes in no God.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

As seen from the hawk story, for Stannis religion is nothing more than a tool for obtaining a goal. He is not believer per se, he just recognizes that Mel has powers that can help him becoming King so he goes with it. In his heart, Stannis basically believes in no God.

I still think he believed, at least in ACOK, that there is a being that powers Mel's magic. He has no reason to doubt R'hllor's existence, only his supposed goodness. Right now, in ADWD, I think he's agnostic.

[Mladen]

I still think he believed, at least in ACOK, that there is a being that powers Mel's magic. He has no reason to doubt R'hllor's existence, only his supposed goodness. Right now, in ADWD, I think he's agnostic.

He believed in Mel's magic, not R'hllor per se. He witnessed what Mel can do and he went with it. His belief in R'hllor was always belief in Mel, nothing more. When he lost at Blackwater, he behaved just as he behaved when his parents died, just as people normally behave when their faith is challenged by the loss. So, at the end, I don't think Stannis much transforms throughout the series in his religious views. They are rather simple, if you can help me, you have my belief.

[Good Guy Garlan]

He believed in Mel's magic, not R'hllor per se. He witnessed what Mel can do and he went with it. His belief in R'hllor was always belief in Mel, nothing more. When he lost at Blackwater, he behaved just as he behaved when his parents died, just as people normally behave when their faith is challenged by the loss. So, at the end, I don't think Stannis much transforms throughout the series in his religious views. They are rather simple, if you can help me, you have my belief.

Well, kinda. I mean, he did leave Mel behind at the Wall, maybe confident in his own abilities for battle, but when things started to go sour he got desperate and started gazing at the fires. So I think he must believe in some notion of R'hllor that is not necessarily linked to Mel. But yeah, his whole "you help me, I believe in you" attitude is spot on, and quite in character for him. It's so like Stannis to expect fealty of the gods, I guess :lol:

[Stannis's Lawyer]

He believed in Mel's magic, not R'hllor per se. He witnessed what Mel can do and he went with it. His belief in R'hllor was always belief in Mel, nothing more. When he lost at Blackwater, he behaved just as he behaved when his parents died, just as people normally behave when their faith is challenged by the loss. So, at the end, I don't think Stannis much transforms throughout the series in his religious views. They are rather simple, if you can help me, you have my belief.

I do not think that he did not believe in R'hllor, because he has no reason to doubt Melisandre about the source of her power, and because after converting, everything has gone well for him more or less, until the Blackwater.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

But yeah, his whole "you help me, I believe in you" attitude is spot on, and quite in character for him. It's so like Stannis to expect fealty of the gods, I guess :lol:

I was reminded of Cressen's "Gods make untrustworthy allies at best". :lol:

[Good Guy Garlan]

I was reminded of Cressen's "Gods make untrustworthy allies at best". :lol:

Stannis was like, "Tell me about it"

[kimim]

I still think he believed, at least in ACOK, that there is a being that powers Mel's magic. He has no reason to doubt R'hllor's existence, only his supposed goodness. Right now, in ADWD, I think he's agnostic.

Does he ever mention R'hllor with any kind of belief? Is he ever shown praying to R'hllor, calling on him for help, etc? I think he's an atheist who uses Mel, as he believes Mel has power. Whether R/hllor exists is another question.

...and then there's the possibility that R'hllor is a god he can believe in, so he could be agnostic about him (won't deny outright, the way he does with Seven). The Seven is the classic omni-omni-omni god, and falls to the problem of pain. Stannis says this is one reason why he can't believe in that god anymore. R'hllor is one half of a duality, Manichean, so not vulnerable to the problem of pain in the same way.

Nah. He';s an atheist.

[Mladen]

I do not think that he did not believe in R'hllor, because he has no reason to doubt Melisandre about the source of her power, and because after converting, everything has gone well for him more or less, until the Blackwater.

You discuss here religion, not trust. Stannis believed Mel and her powers, he believed her story because it gave results. But, Stannis wasn't a religious follower of Red God. And that is what I meant that for him religion is a tool. He believed in R'hllor because he believed in Mel, but that wasn't the sentiment Mel had, but rather practical look on things.

Well, kinda. I mean, he did leave Mel behind at the Wall, maybe confident in his own abilities for battle, but when things started to go sour he got desperate and started gazing at the fires. So I think he must believe in some notion of R'hllor that is not necessarily linked to Mel. But yeah, his whole "you help me, I believe in you" attitude is spot on, and quite in character for him. It's so like Stannis to expect fealty of the gods, I guess :lol:

Although we can say there are some moments where we can say he behaved like true believer, fact is that for the most time Stannis behaves like deities are there to either help him, which would bring them his trust and belief or ignore him, in which case he would ignore them too. Stannis simply is rather pragmatic in his belief. That is what hawk story was meant to tell us. It all comes down to that story. I might even say that it is one of interesting things about him.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Does he ever mention R'hllor with any kind of belief? Is he ever shown praying to R'hllor, calling on him for help, etc? I think he's an atheist who uses Mel, as he believes Mel has power. Whether R/hllor exists is another question.

He looks into fires, presumably trying to get help from him.

...and then there's the possibility that R'hllor is a god he can believe in, so he could be agnostic about him (won't deny outright, the way he does with Seven). The Seven is the classic omni-omni-omni god, and falls to the problem of pain. Stannis says this is one reason why he can't believe in that god anymore. R'hllor is one half of a duality, Manichean, so not vulnerable to the problem of pain in the same way.

True.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

For the most time Stannis behaves like deities are there to either help him, which would bring them his trust and belief or ignore him, in which case he would ignore them too.

That's what I'm saying. Stannis's belief in R'hllor falters when he fails to produce results. Only in very desperate situations does he truly show faith (belief without real evidence) in R'hllor.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of deities. Well, everything depends on what a deity is, but I think that in ACOK he believed in the existence of a deity that fuels Melisandre's magic, hence he was not atheist. He is currently agnostic, leaning towards atheism.

[Mladen]

That's what I'm saying. Stannis's belief in R'hllor falters when he fails to produce results. Only in very desperate situations does he truly show faith (belief without real evidence) in R'hllor.

No. Stannis is not a believer. He is not religiously believing in R'hllor, and even when he sees in fire, it is more like "this worked before, why not now"... You are confusing the trust put in Mel's powers and religious belief.

[Lharys]

As some have said before, Stannis is a pragmatist and only cares about religion if it has a practical application and, in this case, that application is helping him to win the Iron Throne.

I think Stannis believes in Melisandre and Mel believes in R'holler. I don't think there's a direct believe in the Red God.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

No. Stannis is not a believer. He is not religiously believing in R'hllor, and even when he sees in fire, it is more like "this worked before, why not now"... You are confusing the trust put in Mel's powers and religious belief.

What does 'religiously' mean? I'm saying that Stannis probably believes in the existence of a supernatural being that enables Melisandre to do magic.

[Mladen]

What does 'religiously' mean? I'm saying that Stannis probably believes in the existence of a supernatural being that enables Melisandre to do magic.

That doesn't make him religious. That makes him just believing in something connected with Mel's magic. Stannis, at least for me, never gets religious about R'hllor in terms of praying, believing that R'hllor is his God etc. For him, R'hllor is just a powerful tool. Stannis is always practical, never deeply involved in Red faith as Mel, Selyse or any of the believers we have seen.

[James Arryn]

An interesting angle.

1) Stannis repeatedly cites the law.

2) Westerosi law is premised on oaths rather than codified standards.

3) Oaths are premised on religion/faith.

4) Ergo Stannis does not actually believe in law.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

That doesn't make him religious. That makes him just believing in something connected with Mel's magic. Stannis, at least for me, never gets religious about R'hllor in terms of praying, believing that R'hllor is his God etc. For him, R'hllor is just a powerful tool. Stannis is always practical, never deeply involved in Red faith as Mel, Selyse or any of the believers we have seen.

So you're saying that to Stannis, R'hllor is just a very powerful ally. To Melisandre and Selyse, he is the One True God.

If so, I agree with you. That was my point, sort of. Maybe I should learn how to express myself more clearly?

[Stannis's Lawyer]

An interesting angle.

1) Stannis repeatedly cites the law.

2) Westerosi law is premised on oaths rather than codified standards.

3) Oaths are premised on religion/faith.

4) Ergo Stannis does not actually believe in law.

Evidence for 2) and 3)?