James Arryn Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Evidence for 2) and 3)?Repeated use of religiously based oaths for legal proceedings ( alternative to combat~ judgment of the gods) and complete lack of any evidence for codified legal structure, civil code, etc. found in series of books by George R.R. Martin including A Song of Ice and Fire series and short stories involving the characters Dunk & Egg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 Repeated use of religiously based oaths for legal proceedings ( alternative to combat~ judgment of the gods) and complete lack of any evidence for codified legal structure, civil code, etc. found in series of books by George R.R. Martin including A Song of Ice and Fire series and short stories involving the characters Dunk & Egg. There is codified law, like the inheritance laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 There is codified law, like the inheritance laws.Where?(Edit: prop vs. crime, too, but either way, where?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Repeated use of religiously based oaths for legal proceedings ( alternative to combat~ judgment of the gods) and complete lack of any evidence for codified legal structure, civil code, etc. found in series of books by George R.R. Martin including A Song of Ice and Fire series and short stories involving the characters Dunk & Egg. We still use religiously based oaths for legal proceedings - "so help me God," placing one's hand on the Bible, etc. But I don't think this is sufficient to say that law therefore flows from religion. Law in Westeros seems to flow mostly from the sovereign, but (unlike real Medieval Europe) the Iron Throne is not considered to be divinely ordained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Law in Westeros seems to flow mostly from the sovereign, but (unlike real Medieval Europe) the Iron Throne is not considered to be divinely ordained. I don't know, the blessing of the Faith seems like a big deal in Westeros. Even Aegon felt it was necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 We still use religiously based oaths for legal proceedings - "so help me God," placing one's hand on the Bible, etc. But I don't think this is sufficient to say that law therefore flows from religion. We use it as a custom, but we have a criminal code. If we didn't have a criminal code, the oath would be much, much more important, and is in fact a carry-over from the time when it was. Law in Westeros seems to flow mostly from the sovereign, but (unlike real Medieval Europe) the Iron Throne is not considered to be divinely ordained.It is, though. Look up law and Justice in the wiki. It's custom grounded by faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 There is codified law, like the inheritance laws. Actually Martin has stated that inheritance law in Westeros is uncodified, vague, subject to interpretation and at times contradictory. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 So you're saying that to Stannis, R'hllor is just a very powerful ally. To Melisandre and Selyse, he is the One True God.If so, I agree with you. That was my point, sort of. Maybe I should learn how to express myself more clearly? Yeah, and that is not a small difference... Well, I should have realized that we are basically saying the same thing only from different perspectives... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 We use it as a custom, but we have a criminal code. If we didn't have a criminal code, the oath would be much, much more important, and is in fact a carry-over from the time when it was. It is, though. Look up law and Justice in the wiki. It's custom grounded by faith.The sept in Westeros seems far more tolerant of different religions than medieval Christianity. No one's outraged when Ned becomes Hand and head of Robert's council. Had an English king allowed a Muslim or a Jew or even a member of the Orthodoxy to be a major advisor to him, there would have been hell to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 If Stannis believes that a supernatural being exists, would that make him a theist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 If Stannis believes that a supernatural being exists, would that make him a theist? imo not if the supernatural being is not a deity. He could believe in elves and leprechauns and remain atheist or agnostic. I think theist is specifically a believer in some sort of divinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 Yeah, and that is not a small difference... Well, I should have realized that we are basically saying the same thing only from different perspectives... :)So we were actually debating while having the same opinion. :) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 imo not if the supernatural being is not a deity. He could believe in elves and leprechauns and remain atheist or agnostic. I think theist is specifically a believer in some sort of divinity. My dictionary says 'god' is 'the spirit or being who is worshipped as the creator and/or ruler of the world' or 'a spirit or being believed to have power over a particular part of the world.' So if Stannis believes in the existence of a powerful spirit influencing Westerosi events, would that make him a theist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 imo not if the supernatural being is not a deity. He could believe in elves and leprechauns and remain atheist or agnostic. I think theist is specifically a believer in some sort of divinity. This, and more... I don't think Stannis is ever a theist - he remains pragmatic, even if being pragmatic means you have to accept that spiritual or otherworldly events are a reality. A theist believes in the otherworldly things, a pragmatist just accepts them. Oh, Vampires are real are they? Can they help me? No. Can they be killed by me? No. Well, I best stay away from them then. You can be pragmatic about vampires. Stannis is just pragmatic about the Red God. Any agnostic is, ultimately, pragmatic, where an atheist or theist are not, even if it concerns a diety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 So theism requires unsubstantiated belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 In my understanding, if a deity were proven real, then theism (for that deity) would be unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 In my understanding, if a deity were proven real, then theism (for that deity) would be unnecessary. But isn't theism the belief in the existence of a deity? So if gods were proven to exist (which has never happened, both IRL and in Planetos), everyone would be theists (except the mentally ill). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 It depends on how you define belief, I guess. I don't think you need to believe in something you know to be real, you just have to accept and understand it. Here's the first Google result for belief beliefbɪˈliːf/noun 1.an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof."his belief in extraterrestrial life" 2.trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)."a belief in democratic politics" Any truth an individual clings to is only relative to given POV. In the real world and in ASoIaF, there is no universal truth. A belief, by any definition, is less proven than truth and theism requires belief. Stannis, I think, sees the Red God's power as a truth, not a belief. BTW - I think your break down of Stannis' motives in the OP is accurate, to what I have read, just not the application of theism, belief and relative truth, from his POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Here is an example for contrast. Mel believes in The Red God and is a theist. Thoros accepts The Red God's power as truth and is not a theist. This seems contradictory - but it isn't really. Within the world of ASoIaF, as reader's, we should accept that aspects of power associated with The Red God are true, a tangible part of the fictional world because it is written as such. Here is the catch - though the power is true within ASoIaF it is not proven to come from R'hllor, only Mel believes it does. Isn't it strange that the dead can both be raised by R'hllor's kiss of fire and the cold power of The Others? Magical power is real in Planetos - how the characters understand it may not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 BTW - I think your break down of Stannis' motives in the OP is accurate, to what I have read, just not the application of theism, belief and relative truth, from his POV. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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