About Ice and Ned

[RumHam]

That's damn unlikely.

Ned was a twenty-years-old nobleman. Of course he was trained to fight with a greatsword. He was trained to fight with every weapon the Westerosi use. That's what is a damn big part of any nobleman's education is about.

Are you sure? Where do we ever see anyone training with a greatsword? Or a bow for that matter? I'm not saying that he's totally clueless how to hold it, but he was probably far more comfortable fighting with a longsword during Roberts Rebellion.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Based on a symbolic parallel: Ice is melted down at the same time Arya regains Needle.

Tywin believes he's destroyed the Stark legacy by melting down the sword, but in reality it hadn't even been in the family that long (Valyrian steel remember), while "Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile."

Needle actually means something.

I'm not so sure Needle would become THE Stark family sword, but I do love the quote you brought and how it is all about Arya's love for her family and Winterfell. As far as Arya regaining Needle when Ice is melted down, I'm afraid that isn't the exact timing. Perhaps you are thinking of the S4 premiere episode, Two Swords? IIRC, Tyrion is shown the swords a little after his wedding to Sansa on a visit with his father in the Tower of the Hand. The swords will continue to be worked on, ornamentally, but ICE was already melted down. It's obviously before the PW, as Joffrey gets the finished product of Widow's Wail, and Tywin is still awaiting Jaime's hopeful return. As far as Arya, she must still be on the way to or from almost busting into the RW, I'd have to double check the books for her exact location, but it's not until way after the PW and Joff's death and Jaime's return that Arya and The Hound come upon Polliver and The Tickler at The Inn of the Crossroads. Come to think of it, they'd had a long bout of travel, and stopping for Sandor to take a job building a stockade or something even before they hit The Inn. A big chunk of time, it seems to me, passed between the actual melting of ICE and the recovery of Needle in the book verse.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

It means something to Arya, yes. It's the Stark legacy to her, but right now she's a very long way (geographically AND mentally) from Winterfell and not really in a position to instigate or support a Stark heritage. Also, Needle is a very atypical sword, more like a rapier than a broad- or long sword. While that doesn't rule it out, it's not something a Lord would carry - it's the sword of a child.

It's made from regular old steel, so it doesn't have that going for it either.

As much as I hope for a Stark restoration, I would be very surprised to see Needle ever become anything but Arya's weapon.

It's true that it's atypical, but it also represents the new guerilla way of war, but it's a fair point that not everybody fights like Arya.

Arya is still intensely Stark; her Mercy Chapter starts with her having a warging dream, and so far she has failed every "who are you?" test that KM has given her. Every time she asked to invent a new name for herself, she's chosen a Winterfell name: "Cat", "Beth", "Arry."

This is OT, but Arya, like her siblings, will be very important to the Stark restoration, (which is half the purpose of these books; Bran, Sansa, and Arya are all having these coming-of-age stories that began with the death of their mentor-parents: Ned and Cat)

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I'm not so sure Needle would become THE Stark family sword, but I do love the quote you brought and how it is all about Arya's love for her family and Winterfell. As far as Arya regaining Needle when Ice is melted down, I'm afraid that isn't the exact timing.

Yeah, sorry, it wasn't the "exact" same time, my memory of the books is foggy, they were just both in ASOS.

I do wonder what will be done with it after the end of the series and Arya dies.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Are you sure? Where do we ever see anyone training with a greatsword? Or a bow for that matter? I'm not saying that he's totally clueless how to hold it, but he was probably far more comfortable fighting with a longsword during Roberts Rebellion.

It was part of the standard education for nobles in real life. Fighting with a greatsword is basically the same as fighting with a longsword without a shield. Jon Snow switches from longsword to bastard sword without problems.

He may prefer another weapon, but he'll be damn good with any weapon. The Master-of-Arms at Winterfell and the Eyrie made sure he is.

It's true that it's atypical, but it also represents the new guerilla way of war, but it's a fair point that not everybody fights like Arya.

For a grown man, Needle is basically a dagger. Not a serious weapon.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Yeah, sorry, it wasn't the "exact" same time, my memory of the books is foggy, they were just both in ASOS.

I do wonder what will be done with it after the end of the series and Arya dies.

I do find that to be an interesting question, now that you mention it, LOL Will Arya live long enough to have children and pass it to a daughter or even a son? Could it become an heirloom for girls who prefer one type of Needle to another in the Stark family? I would like to see that sword last.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

It was part of the standard education for nobles in real life. Fighting with a greatsword is basically the same as fighting with a longsword without a shield. Jon Snow switches from longsword to bastard sword without problems.

He may prefer another weapon, but he'll be damn good with any weapon. The Master-of-Arms at Winterfell and the Eyrie made sure he is.

For a grown man, Needle is basically a dagger. Not a serious weapon.

Technically, isn't more so a bravos blade, the type men use in Braavos?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Technically, isn't more so a bravos blade, the type men use in Braavos?

Nope. It's a (short) bravos blade for an eight-year-old girl. Probably about 120 cm tall or less. An actual adult male Bravo of average height would use something at least twice as long or longer.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Nope. It's a (short) bravos blade for an eight-year-old girl. Probably about 120 cm tall or less. An actual adult male Bravo of average height would use something at least twice as long or longer.

The use of the word probably, along with how Polliver actually kept it, make me wonder on it's exact comparison to a true bravo blade. That and the obvious weighted practice sword that Syrio had Arya use leave me feeling that I think we could use more information on it. I must admit, a girl is too lazy to go look it up, LOL

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The use of the word probably, along with how Polliver actually kept it, make me wonder on it's exact comparison to a true bravo blade. That and the obvious weighted practice sword that Syrio had Arya use leave me feeling that I think we could use more information on it. I must admit, a girl is too lazy to go look it up, LOL

And Polliver used it as a dirk/dagger. Meaning as a backup blade of about 40-50 cm, which fits Arya's size at the time Mikken made Needle. A true bravo blade for an adult male would be about 100-120 cm.

[BastardlyRock]

And Polliver used it as a dirk/dagger. Meaning as a backup blade of about 40-50 cm, which fits Arya's size at the time Mikken made Needle. A true bravo blade for an adult male would be about 100-120 cm.

I do agree an actually Braavosi blade would be longer, and that Needle is a smaller version of one... I don't have the books on me but isn't there a line from Polliver about using it to pick his teeth? (jokingly of course, but it may shed light on the notion that it's smaller than would be expected of a sword from Braavos)

edit: In retrospect that may have been a show-only line. If that's the case please strike my comment from the records :D

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I do agree an actually Braavosi blade would be longer, and that Needle is a smaller version of one... I don't have the books on me but isn't there a line from Polliver about using it to pick his teeth? (jokingly of course, but it may shed light on the notion that it's smaller than would be expected of a sword from Braavos)

edit: In retrospect that may have been a show-only line. If that's the case please strike my comment from the records :D

That's the basic issue with my inquiry on it, what are the exact differences in a full blown bravo blade and Needle. I've been a bit a busy since posting the initial posts yesterday, along with the fact that I am much too lazy to look it up. Another reason I haven't looked this up specifically is that I suspect if there were exact details on the differences between Needle and the average bravo blade......someone would have brought some quotes, LOL

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That's the basic issue with my inquiry on it, what are the exact differences in a full blown bravo blade and Needle. I've been a bit a busy since posting the initial posts yesterday, along with the fact that I am much too lazy to look it up. Another reason I haven't looked this up specifically is that I suspect if there were exact details on the differences between Needle and the average bravo blade......someone would have brought some quotes, LOL

We know that Mikken shortened a man's sword to fit Arya, who is both a young girl and small for her age. We know that Polliver used it as a dirk. We know that the older Arya thinks it is small and a child's toy.

And we know that Braavosi blades are somewhere in the evolution from sidesword to rapier.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

We know that Mikken shortened a man's sword to fit Arya, who is both a young girl and small for her age. We know that Polliver used it as a dirk. We know that the older Arya thinks it is small and a child's toy.

And we know that Braavosi blades are somewhere in the evolution from sidesword to rapier.

I do get that Needle seems to be smaller, I'd just be interested in having something that tells us the EXACT preportions and differences, from GRRM, that is all I meant, LOL

[Le Cygne]

I do get that Needle seems to be smaller, I'd just be interested in having something that tells us the EXACT preportions and differences, from GRRM, that is all I meant, LOL

Maybe not what you are looking for, but I do love this scene.

Her face lit up. "A present?"

"You could call it that. Close the door."

Wary but excited, Arya checked the hall. "Nymeria, here. Guard." She left the wolf out there to warn of intruders and closed the door. By then Jon had pulled off the rags hed wrapped it in. He held it out to her.

Arya's eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his. "A sword," she said in a small, hushed breath.

The scabbard was soft grey leather, supple as sin. Jon drew out the blade slowly, so she could see the deep blue sheen of the steel. "This is no toy," he told her. "Be careful you don't cut yourself. The edges are sharp enough to shave with."

"Girls don't shave," Arya said.

"Maybe they should. Have you ever seen the septa's legs?"

She giggled at him. "It's so skinny."

"So are you," Jon told her. "I had Mikken make this special. The bravos use swords like this in Pentos and Myr and the other Free Cities. It won't hack a man's head off, but it can poke him full of holes if you're fast enough."

"I can be fast," Arya said.

"You'll have to work at it every day." He put the sword in her hands, showed her how to hold it, and stepped back. "How does it feel? Do you like the balance?"

"I think so," Arya said.

"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."

[LadySaeryn]

I'm actually a bit confused about this. Shouldn't the Stark lord be buried with his sword? Like the ones in the crypt?

[messem]

And we know that Braavosi blades are somewhere in the evolution from sidesword to rapier.

FYI A bravo's blade is not same thing as a Braavosi blade. I think Ned called Needle a bravo's blade.

[aryagonnakill#2]

LadySaeryn the Stark lords weren't buried with their swords, they had Iron Swords to keep their spirits locked away. Iron is commonly used to block ghosts in mythology/religion/whatever.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I do get that Needle seems to be smaller, I'd just be interested in having something that tells us the EXACT preportions and differences, from GRRM, that is all I meant, LOL

Hanging beside his dagger was a slimmer bade, too long to be a dirk, too short to be a man's sword ... but it felt just right in her hand.

Storm, Arya whatever, at the Crossroads Inn.

So noticeably longer than the 17-53 cm for a dirk and noticeably shorter than the 100-130 cm for a man's sword (as the men of Winterfell would use them). Let's call it 70 cm.

I'm actually a bit confused about this. Shouldn't the Stark lord be buried with his sword? Like the ones in the crypt?

Those are specially made for that purpose. Pure iron, not state of the art.

FYI A bravo's blade is not same thing as a Braavosi blade. I think Ned called Needle a bravo's blade.

It's both. Braavos is probably named after the bravos or at least has the same root.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Ned wouldn't have had Ice until his father and brother were dead. It would have been their blade first...he was a second son.

I agree that all the Stark brothers would have trained with a greatsword, Benjen would have probably been too young to do much with it though. But as it was pointed out above, a great part of a noble boy's education was to train with all available weapons of the day.

Blades were forged especially for the crypts from what I can tell, and the family blade (Ice) passed to the heir. I think the original Ice is a Checkov's Gun...why even mention it if it isn't important. So, even though the current Ice had been in the family for 400 years, it was a replacement. I think the original Ice is probably deep in the crypts somewhere and may even be Lightbringer. It can't be Valyrian steel because of the timeline, but I don't think it is simply bronze or iron either.