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You have an army: choose your general.

James Steller

By James Steller,
in General (ASoIaF)

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Hodor's Dragon Council Member

Hodor's Dragon

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Ned was probably a good war leader. He was never the heir but all the task fell on him and he did a good job. And given that he is the one who taught strategy to Robb and Jon, he deserves an honorable mention.

Teaching Robb and Jon was his claim to fame, and we can see enough in Jon's thoughts to know that Ned had some very astute ideas about military command. Of course, teaching and doing are very different things when it comes to military command. Many commanders, even brave and competent ones, freeze in battle, and Ned either didn't face that task, or if he did, it's not described for us. He's not in the running.

Robb was the true military prodigy of the series. He faced massive disadvantages but managed to outmaneuver Tywin.

Robb had great success, and I don't want to diminish it: except by comparison to Daenerys. None of his victories were against the same kinds of odds as hers - Astapor, seemingly impossible; Yunkai, easy to win but nearly impossible to win almost immediately, which is what she had to do, and did; Meereen, seemingly impossible. And the particular word you used, "prodigy," is a word that describes talent more than accomplishment. Robb was trained to command, Daenerys was apparently not. It just comes naturally to her, and to me, that suggests "prodigy." Finally, of course, Robb wound up sticking himself and half his army into a trap, leading to the destruction of his campaign. Perhaps Dany will also come a cropper at some point, and perhaps it will be through her own error, as Robb's disaster was due to his, but to date her record is flawless. Please note, though, that the reason this paragraph is full of criticism of Robb is because you ranked him ahead of Daenerys and I am arguing with you. Outside of that context, Robb was a brilliant young commander.

Jon's defense of the Wall against Magnar and later Mance was one of the finest acts of war leadership.

Jon did a great job that suggests a talent for command, but he hasn't done any battle planning or gone on the offensive yet, so he's not really in the running. Compare him to Robert E. Lee in the Mexican-American War, an underling who won great praise for playing an important role in a key battle that went a long way toward winning him a high command 15-20 years later.

We should evaluate Victarion's skills after the Battle of Fire when he is finally free from the tentacles of his elder brothers and making his own plans.

Not in the running.

We should also ask whether Stannis was the only planner of the Fair Isle or were there other admirals like Paxter?

I wouldn't ignore Stannis' history, but neither would I put too much weight in it, since it's not described in the books. In the books, Stannis' record is mixed. He has a very nice win at the Wall, where his army seems to have been handled well and certainly showed up in a timely fashion. But at the Blackwater he signed off on a questionable plan to bring his fleet up into a protected anchorage without sending scouts ahead, and then after the fleet was smashed he got his military force decimated by a questionable desperation attack against a fortified position, a la Pickett's Charge (making Stannis a second character who can be compared to Lee, at a different stage of Lee's career). At the end of ADWD he has placed his army in a very problematic position, deep inland in the heart of the North with winter falling. I'm not sure how he plans to get his forces out of there, and I can state with pretty good confidence that most of them will not be coming out of there.

JonCon became a highly capable commander during his exile.

I don't know much about this. He did manage to overwhelm a few lightly-defended castles, but I don't think he's really in the running.

Randyll Tarly might be a disgusting person but he is a proven commander.

Tarly has a fairly spotless record in the books. He's a candidate, but I put him below Robb and Dany. They both won more impressive victories, and we also learn more details of what they did, which suggests Martin wants us to focus more on them than on him.

Robert was an inspiring leader but I doubt that was his only trait without any strategy.

This is just a part of what you already said, but I would mention that he was himself a fearsome fighter and he inspired by leading from the front as a macho warrior. Overall, though, we don't know that much about Robert as a military commender.

Dany is also an inspiring leader but far from a military genius.

What makes you flatly state the last few words? Has she made any military mistakes? At all? To me, winning the most against-the-odds battles in the series, at the age of 15 and with (apparently) no military training, is absolutely a mark of genius. I wouldn't know how else to put it, and I think it's beyond question that if that happened in the real world, the word "genius" would get thrown around profusely. Further, if the amount of words Martin spends on describing a commander's military decisions is a mark of how much he wants us to concentrate on that person as a commander, then he wants us to think of Dany as a commander more than any other character in the series. So: brilliant victories, no losses, detailed battle plans, age 15, no training - and NOT a military genius or prodigy? ???

Good move to leave Tywin off the list. He is not in the running.

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Hodor's Dragon Council Member

Hodor's Dragon

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It's not like Cannae at all.

She seriously outnumbers the enemy, it's a surprise night attack, it depends on turncoats launching a rearguard attack and, like GRRM always does, the flank attacks aren't the result of a preordained plan to flex and take advantage of the enemy's strength, but instead one of his blind 'surprise' flank attacks, a la Blackwater and Wall and almost every battle we see. Hammer and anvil and all that, like hitting someone in the rear/flank is some kind of original strategy that just happens because someone thought of it.

I've written about this at length in other threads, and in a way I don't blame Martin. Strategy in literature is almost always reduced to 'surprise' because everything else reads as boring from the planner's POV, confusing from anyone else's. So most writers bail and rely on surprise or Bernard Cornwell grit it out.

Edit: no comment on Dany overall as a commander or your point re: sexism or w/e, just this point about Tbh I typed out my response immediately after reading the CannE thing, and only read the second paragraph in my quote, lol. I think someone raised Cannae about Stannis at the Wall before, and my response/indignation was pretty much the same. :)

I don't know what you mean about not a "preordained plan." It was planned double envelopment attack with a light holding force in the center. That bears enough similarities to Cannae to make me think Martin had Cannae in mind when he wrote it. Of course it is not identical to Cannae, but it got the big parts that you see when you read a brief summation of the battle.

And she didn't actually depend on a rearguard attack from turncoats, her plan was designed to work if the Stormcrows didn't turn. Specifically, she placed half her Unsullied in position to fight the Stormcrows, but after she won them over with her special diplomacy that force was available to take the Yunkish slave soldiers in the flank.

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First Warden Freerider

First Warden

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Daenerys does 100% of the battle planning, and it is described in detail. She doesn't even take council. She just tells them what to do. As I stated above, her planning is elaborated on a great deal more than any other commander's planning.

Anybody can make a mistake, but yours was so 180 degrees off that it suggests that you are not careful about the accuracy of your posts. It doesn't serve the thread when you comment on stuff you don't know about.

I defeated Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time Balon Greyjoy crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, what battles has the 'Mommie of Dragons' ever won that I should fear her?

-Stannis the Mannis

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Hodor's Dragon Council Member

Hodor's Dragon

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I defeated Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time Balon Greyjoy crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, what battles has the 'Mommie of Dragons' ever won that I should fear her?

-Stannis the Mannis

Read my reply to Antz above, the paragraph about Stannis. I don't have much to add to that, except that I didn't deal with Dragonstone in that para because holding out against a siege requires perseverance and determination, each of which Stannis has in spades, but has little or nought to do with generalship.

And why the infantile "Mommie" crap? (I already told y'all that this is sexist.)

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Barty Council Member

Barty

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She has three dragons :dunno:

She actually doesnt have 3 dragons. Its quite clear that no targ can control more than one dragon at a time. She needs riders for the remaining two - riders she can trust and that list has about 0 names in it right now.

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