The misunderstood Lord Walder Frey: He should’ve killed Robb

[Quentyn Kartell]

Roose talks a decent game to Ramsay but he doesn't enforce it in anyway. There's no denying that Ramsay has done things that hurt the family, even things that Roose specifically tells him he shouldn't have done, just because he wants to. And there's no denying that he hasn't suffered for it.

But they're not. The Freys are a young house with a reputation as being upstarts being run by a man with a reputation for breeding like a rabit and showing up late. The Westerlings are an old house fallen on hard times and run by a man who married a foreigner. The Westerlings are older and more respectable than the Freys, they're just poorer. All of Freys 'social status' comes from their wealth, which is miniscule in comparision to actually weathly families in the Westerlands and Reach. Besides which, both are of clearly lower status than Robb's own House.

Roose needs Ramsay so he can hold/control Winterfell. That's why he lets Ramsay get away with murder.

[TheWanderer]

Roose needs Ramsay so he can hold/control Winterfell. That's why he lets Ramsay get away with murder.

He sort of does, but only because they decided on the whole fake-Arya thing. Roose is in charge of the North with or without Arya and if he hadn't agreed to go that route he'd have no use for Ramsay at all. Plus Ramsay would be a more useful tool if he hadn't murdered his last wife and wasn't raping this one. And Domeric would be an even more useful tool and that was way before they came up with this plan. Ramsay is, and has been for a long time, allowed to do whatever he wants effectively because Roose doesn't care.

[amitbernard]

regardless of how you feel about the freys it doesn't matter you know they are going to die.

At the end of ADOD they fighting each other in TTWOW they are getting slaughtered cause they are surrounded enemies on three sides riverland lords , vale and the north

[Quentyn Kartell]

He sort of does, but only because they decided on the whole fake-Arya thing. Roose is in charge of the North with or without Arya and if he hadn't agreed to go that route he'd have no use for Ramsay at all. Plus Ramsay would be a more useful tool if he hadn't murdered his last wife and wasn't raping this one. And Domeric would be an even more useful tool and that was way before they came up with this plan. Ramsay is, and has been for a long time, allowed to do whatever he wants effectively because Roose doesn't care.

In terms of appointment, yes Roose runs the north. But to solidify his seat, he needs Winterfell, which Arya holds the key to being that all the boys are believed to be dead and Sansa is married to Tyrion, who is a fugitive. So Arya or fArya in this case has the right to the seat. With fArya, the other northern houses can be persuaded to fall in line with Roose. One thing you can't fight or argue is tradition. Without fArya, Roose hold of Winterfell can be protested. So it's better to have her. I believe Roose doesn't care about Ramsay, he lets Ramsay play his games as long as it falls in line with Roose's goals. Could be why Ramsay never told Roose the Stark boys are alive... because he fears losing his position with Roose.

[marsyao]

I would say, Walder Frey has very legit cause to kill Robb, but he made two mistakes, one is breaking laws of hospitality which is sacre in the Westero, second, he killed too many highborns of North and riverland house. Because of these two mistakes, not only House Stark but also many powerful North and riverland noble houses would never forgive him, and sooner or later House Frey would pay dearly for this folly.

What Walder Frey ought to do is finding a way kill Robb and his directly family members, but not when Robb is his guest, and spare others. But to be fair to him, Robb is not stupid, he knew he did Walder Frey wrong, and I guess he would never go near Walder Frey without surrounding himself with his bannermen and not been granted a guest's right

[Allyria Dondarrion]

On the future of the Freys:

In aGoT when Catelyn is negotiating with Walder Frey (BTW, don't you remember he wanted Robb to enter his castle alone? :cool4: ) he boasts about how many sons he has, how he can match Catelyn son for son and still have some 16 or so left.

I think it foreshadows their deaths, I mean the Freys' :devil:

[House Obama]

On the future of the Freys:

In aGoT when Catelyn is negotiating with Walder Frey (BTW, don't you remember he wanted Robb to enter his castle alone? :cool4: ) he boasts about how many sons he has, how he can match Catelyn son for son and still have some 16 or so left.

I think it foreshadows their deaths, I mean the Freys' :devil:

I do remember that, lol I'm surprise I still do. I think you're right because the Freys always bicker back and forth with one another, and one of the ons may start killing the others to become the heir.

[House Obama]

I would say, Walder Frey has very legit cause to kill Robb, but he made two mistakes, one is breaking laws of hospitality which is sacre in the Westero, second, he killed too many highborns of North and riverland house. Because of these two mistakes, not only House Stark but also many powerful North and riverland noble houses would never forgive him, and sooner or later House Frey would pay dearly for this folly.

What Walder Frey ought to do is finding a way kill Robb and his directly family members, but not when Robb is his guest, and spare others. But to be fair to him, Robb is not stupid, he knew he did Walder Frey wrong, and I guess he would never go near Walder Frey without surrounding himself with his bannermen and not been granted a guest's right

I said he should’ve killed Robb, but I never supported him killing highborns of great houses of the North and Riverlands. And the lie his family made to explain the death of these sons and daughters of high lords was asinine. The notion that Robb Stark transformed into a wolf and killed them is beyond stupid. If Walder Frey was a respectable lord, he may have received less scrutiny from lord for initiating the RW. But due to his bad image, he’s getting no pass whatsoever.

[JonBranRickon]

Killing Robb, especially the way he did was a huge mistake. You will see the Freys play dealry for this.

[Ampelisca]

Davos calls it when he hears about the RW. The Frey's are cursed. No matter what the provocation, you don't break guest rights.

I think we might find that Robb played the game of thrones at the end and pulled a fast one on his betrayers

[marsyao]

I said he should’ve killed Robb, but I never supported him killing highborns of great houses of the North and Riverlands. And the lie his family made to explain the death of these sons and daughters of high lords was asinine. The notion that Robb Stark transformed into a wolf and killed them is beyond stupid. If Walder Frey was a respectable lord, he may have received less scrutiny from lord for initiating the RW. But due to his bad image, he’s getting no pass whatsoever.

To be fair, his original plan was to kidnappe these great Lords of North and riverland attending the wedding, we know he took both Big Jon and Edmure captive, and he did not intend to kill Catelyn, but when he decided to kill Robb in a wedding, then when the arrow start to fly and Knives bare, many of guests would die

[House Obama]

Everyone have to look back at the picture for a second. Walder Frey committed the RW because he had Roose, the Karstarks, and Tywin Lannister backing him. If you were in his shoes what would you have done? Your king broken an oath to marry one of your daughters, and if he did not your house would have risen in status tremendously because your daughter will become queen. Walder’s heir, who he groomed to rule, died in the war while shielding Robb from Jaime Lannister, and his second heir died shortly after.

Walder remained loyal to Robb, but upon hearing of Robb marrying another girl, would you have stayed loyal? I wouldn’t.

Who in their right mind would have guessed that Tywin would get killed by his dwarf son on the privy? Also who would have thought that Catelyn will become alive again? This is just a case of bad luck. And with Cersei ruling the seven kingdoms this is even worse luck. Everyone naturally assumed that Cersei would have let Kevan Lannister become Lord Regent (though, he became Lord Regent afterward), but she denied him that right. Everyone who read the series must admit that Walder is just having a string of bad luck.

[Sword of the Morgan]

The Red Wedding went too far, though. They didn't just kill Robb (in a treacherous and dishonorable manner, besides): they also slaughtered his mother and many northern / riverlander lords, not to mention thousands of soldiers. It was a massacre and many people died and suffered because of it.

Yes.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Everyone have to look back at the picture for a second. Walder Frey committed the RW because he had Roose, the Karstarks, and Tywin Lannister backing him

Small correction: the Karstarks were never involved in the Red Wedding ;)

House Karstark later did join House Bolton. Though that support might disappear now that Alys has returned to her seat in force

[TheWanderer]

Walder remained loyal to Robb, but upon hearing of Robb marrying another girl, would you have stayed loyal? I wouldn’t.

I might not either. It's somewhat odd then that Walder did. Walder does not abandon Robb's cause at any point. He demands Robb make amends, Robb does so and Walder accepts. Walder accepts Robb's apology and alternate deal. And then he murders Robb in cold blood. That's why it's not revenge.

Who in their right mind would have guessed that Tywin would get killed by his dwarf son on the privy? Also who would have thought that Catelyn will become alive again? This is just a case of bad luck. And with Cersei ruling the seven kingdoms this is even worse luck. Everyone naturally assumed that Cersei would have let Kevan Lannister become Lord Regent (though, he became Lord Regent afterward), but she denied him that right. Everyone who read the series must admit that Walder is just having a string of bad luck.

None of this has anything to do with the Frey's situation though. The Frey's were being hunted by the Brotherhood before Lady Stoneheart. Manderly baking them into pies isn't because of Cersei's rule. The Frey's aren't hated because Tywin died, they're hated for what Walder did.

The Frey's doom isn't coming at the hands of bad luck, it's coming as payback for what they've done.

[mediterraneo]

....

Everyone who read the series must admit that Walder is just having a string of bad luck.

I agree. But I should add that both Machiavelli and Napoleon advise leaders to be lucky

[yankee211]

What Walder and Roose did was cowardly, I understand why he was upset, but he told of told Robb no he will not support him. Instead he ends up angering the northmen and the riverlords.

[ImpinDornish]

Even the Wildlings observe guest right, as Mance explains when he offers Jon food and mead when they meet for the first (third) time. I certainly agree that Walder had every right to be pissed off. If there'd been a battle against the Lannisters and then just before battle The Freys turned on the Starks and Robb was killed as a result, you'd go "fair enough. Dirty, but fair." But at a wedding? Too much. And killing Catelyn and every other guest in attendance? He broke the most solemn vow in all the lands hundreds, thousands of times over and will pay dearly for it.

On another note, who does Robb think he is breaking a marriage vow then getting all "high and noble" concerning the Karstarks? He deserved to die. Just, not at a wedding.

[House Obama]

I agree. But I should add that both Machiavelli and Napoleon advise leaders to be lucky

Lol. I agree.

[House Obama]

I might not either. It's somewhat odd then that Walder did. Walder does not abandon Robb's cause at any point. He demands Robb make amends, Robb does so and Walder accepts. Walder accepts Robb's apology and alternate deal. And then he murders Robb in cold blood. That's why it's not revenge.

None of this has anything to do with the Frey's situation though. The Frey's were being hunted by the Brotherhood before Lady Stoneheart. Manderly baking them into pies isn't because of Cersei's rule. The Frey's aren't hated because Tywin died, they're hated for what Walder did.

The Frey's doom isn't coming at the hands of bad luck, it's coming as payback for what they've done.

Okay, I never said the Freys are hated because of Cersei’s ruling, or Tywin’s death. The Freys are looked down upon because Walder arrived late to aid Robert Baratheon, and the fact that he has countless sons and daughters. But as I said throughout this post, Walder was loyal to Robb during the War of the Five Kings, until Robb broke his oath.