The misunderstood Lord Walder Frey: He should’ve killed Robb

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Oh yes it does, remember that whenever a king gets overthrown, his supporters and army must be obliterated. Pick up an old history book, or even the Bible, and you will see that I am right. Robb breaking his oath was the icing on the cake that Walder needed in order to justify (himself or his family) that killing the king was necessary. Robb severed Lord Rickard Karstark’s head, thus making the Karstarks leave him. Also, the ironborns were pillaging the North slowly and slowly. Catelyn told Robb to not let Theon return to Pyke and he ignored her prudent advice and did it anyway. The Frey and Karstark made up for approximately 60, 000 together, so Robb losing them basically signal the end of his rebellion.

And Lyonel Baratheon situation is different than Robb because the realm was arguably intact at that time, and Lyonel was not rebellion against the Iron Throne like Robb was. Robb needed Frey, but the Targaryens could’ve easily killed Lyonel if they wanted to… honor had nothing to do with it.

Robb breaking his vow does justify Walder killing him. Walder would’ve look weak if he just allowed Robb to break his oath and marry a house that is currently struggling financially, with a paltry number of soldiers… you need better reasons if you think Walder should have remained loyal and “honorable”. Ned Stark was honorable and looks where that got him J .

Did I say that Walder needed to remain loyal? No, I did not. Walder could have simply refused an alliance with Robb.

He had three choices, the way I see it:

• Quietly remain loyal and accept the breaking of the betrothal

Stop being loyal, breaking all ties with House Stark

Quit being loyal, and become loyal once more, after getting what you want (a new betrothal, eventual rights, etc.)

What Walder did, was swearing loyalty to Robb's enemy. He is allowed to do that, surely. But instead of only swearing loyalty, he lies and promises Robb he would like to renew their alliance... He offers Robb and his army the guest right, acknowledged the guest right, and then breaks it, forever putting dishonour on his own house.. If Walder wants his 600 year old house to be seen as worth anything, he shouldn't break the laws of the gods..

If a man commits a crime, does his child deserve to physically suffer by being punished? Does his neighbour? His friends? His employees? No, they don't. When someone commits a crime, in your eyes, towards you, you punish said person... You don't slaughter half an army, just because..

[TheWanderer]

The Lannister broke GR when Jamie tried to kill Bran by pushing him from a window.

Jamie (and Joffery) broke Guest Right, House Lannister did not. Tyrion is completely and utterly blameless, which was not the wording of your original post.

Why should he have risked losing hundreds of his men, if he could annihilate them more easily and efficiently? Answer this question truly, and look at it from Walder’s pov.

Because his men are still at risk. His family is at greater risk in fact. Are Frey men not dying in defense of Winterfell? Are Frey's not being hunted and hanged in the Riverlands?

To quote Tyrion, "Explain to me why it is more noble to kill 10,000 men in battle than a dozen at dinner."

Those 10,000 men know the risk they face, even if they didn't directly chose it, and that means those 10,000 men, if they are valiant and skilled and lucky, can avert their fate.

And the other reason is that, nobility is about being trustworthy. Killing someone at dinner destroys any trust you've built, not just with the victim but with everyone.

You're forgetting one thing: Robb betrayed Walder first. This was not an unprovoked attack.

Yes it was. Robb had betrayed Walder and then he had made amends. And Walder had accepted Robb's apology.

Consider the following: A man elbows you at the bar, he turns around and says "Oh, sorry about that. Here let me buy you a beer." You say "Yeah that's fine." and then, when he goes to hand you the beer you punch him in the face. Is that justified? No.

What about the king’s honor? Robb broke a holy oath to Walder, but everyone brushed it under the rug because nobody likes Walder Frey…

It didn't get swept under the rug though. Robb made amends.

Also, this may be a blemish on House Frey, but they are currently doing what House Lannister does, which is rule by fear.

What are they ruling? Not the Riverlands, that's been given to Littlefinger.

What fear? I don't see any fear in the Brotherhoods hanging of them on their own land.

By Killing Robb and slaughtering his army, Walder had proved to the Iron Throne that the Frey wants no trouble. He also possibly saved his family from extinction.

His family was in no danger of extinction, until they committed the Red Wedding.

Oh yes it does, remember that whenever a king gets overthrown, his supporters and army must be obliterated.

This has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the prior point. Robb's betrayal did not warrant Walder's response. Arguing about the practicality of overthrowing a King is a moot point in determining the scale of betrayal and the response justified.

Walder would’ve look weak if he just allowed Robb to break his oath

Would he have though? Robb didn't get off scott-free, Walder made him make amends. He'd have a daughter married to the Heir of Riverrun (whose father is ailing badly). In other words, he'd be a pretty important person.

Instead of possibly being viewed as weak (unlikely) he's viewed as scum... that's way worse.

[imaginepageant]

Consider the following: A man elbows you at the bar, he turns around and says "Oh, sorry about that. Here let me buy you a beer." You say "Yeah that's fine." and then, when he goes to hand you the beer you punch him in the face. Is that justified? No.

No.

But if the biggest, strongest guy in the whole bar was standing right behind me—a guy known to have brutally killed people who've gone against him in the past, a guy who had equally intimidating friends watching me from every corner of the bar—and this guy was whispering in my ear to punch the other guy in the face, and I knew that if I didn't, it was a good possibility that he or his friends would beat me to a pulp... then yeah, I'd probably punch that first guy in the face.

[Prince of the Green]

House Obama, on 11 Dec 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

What about the king’s honor? Robb broke a holy oath to Walder, but everyone brushed it under the rug because nobody likes Walder Frey… we all know Walder’s back story, so I won’t wander into it. Also, this may be a blemish on House Frey, but they are currently doing what House Lannister does, which is rule by fear. The RW was truly the only card Walder had at his disposal.

There was no agreement to a 'holy oath' between Robb and Walder Frey. That would entail Robb being present to make such oath. Besides, his religious proclivities were swinging further and further towards the Old Gods rather than the Seven. We are at least aware of Robb visiting the Godswood after battle and not the Sept, at Riverrun.

And to state that the only card Walder Frey had at his disposal of a broken engagement was complete and utter annihilation of men and women who you've welcomed into your home is broken logic. The Freys have lost and will lose a lot more than they have gained since such a heinous act.

As far as a broken betrothal equating death for all parties involved, even those on the very fringe of the debate, I point to the unfulfilled Pact of Ice and Fire, in which House Stark was promised a Targaryen princess for their support of the Blacks in the Dance of the Dragons. The only instance we have of the Starks trying to beat their overlords is during Robert's Rebellion, and I can guarantee you that Ned did not bring that up as some sort of justifying fact for the war.

So, in your own words, the Starks must have been seen as weak by both the people south of the Neck and their own people in the North for roughly 150 years; but we have evidence of the contrary, in regards to those houses both North and South.

To argue that the Starks made their bed and would have to lie in it, bile and thorns and suffering all, because of one broken marriage contract is silly and very shortsighted. It is quite to the contrary, actually, with Walder Frey and most of his ilk painting massive targets on themselves, and with no friends in the South and outright enemies in the North.

My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables

Even Lord Wyman Manderly followed the laws of guest right to the letter, presenting each despicable Frey with a guest gift before killing them. Surely a man who has to suffer men who were present or even complicit in his son's murder would have the right of it to despoil guest right and kill them in his own hall. Yet, he is aware that even he is not above reproach when it comes to laws and sacredly held traditions that have been in place far longer than his own people have even been residents of the continent.

[Attitude]

No.

But if the biggest, strongest guy in the whole bar was standing right behind me—a guy known to have brutally killed people who've gone against him in the past, a guy who had equally intimidating friends watching me from every corner of the bar—and this guy was whispering in my ear to punch the other guy in the face, and I knew that if I didn't, it was a good possibility that he or his friends would beat me to a pulp... then yeah, I'd probably punch that first guy in the face.

Are you talking about Tywin?

Frey could've just said to Robb; no you promised to mary me so one of my children would've been a queen of the North, now you betray me, so go f*ck yourself, I don't want an alliance anymore.

Do you really think that Tywin would've said: Oh mr frey, now you're going to die? Tywin would've been satisfied, because Robb's army would've been a lot less without the frey's. Walder Frey breaking the alliance with Robb in any way was the final blow to Robb's rebellion. Killing Robb didn't change anything, it only damaged his reputation.

And being pushed around by other 'big houses' was just the thing that Walder Frey was sick & tired off. That's the reason he wanted a queen was just because of that. And what did he end up to? Being pushed around and being a puppet of a big house (house lannister).

[House Obama]

House Obama, on 11 Dec 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

What about the king’s honor? Robb broke a holy oath to Walder, but everyone brushed it under the rug because nobody likes Walder Frey… we all know Walder’s back story, so I won’t wander into it. Also, this may be a blemish on House Frey, but they are currently doing what House Lannister does, which is rule by fear. The RW was truly the only card Walder had at his disposal.

There was no agreement to a 'holy oath' between Robb and Walder Frey. That would entail Robb being present to make such oath. Besides, his religious proclivities were swinging further and further towards the Old Gods rather than the Seven. We are at least aware of Robb visiting the Godswood after battle and not the Sept, at Riverrun.

And to state that the only card Walder Frey had at his disposal of a broken engagement was complete and utter annihilation of men and women who you've welcomed into your home is broken logic. The Freys have lost and will lose a lot more than they have gained since such a heinous act.

As far as a broken betrothal equating death for all parties involved, even those on the very fringe of the debate, I point to the unfulfilled Pact of Ice and Fire, in which House Stark was promised a Targaryen princess for their support of the Blacks in the Dance of the Dragons. The only instance we have of the Starks trying to beat their overlords is during Robert's Rebellion, and I can guarantee you that Ned did not bring that up as some sort of justifying fact for the war.

So, in your own words, the Starks must have been seen as weak by both the people south of the Neck and their own people in the North for roughly 150 years; but we have evidence of the contrary, in regards to those houses both North and South.

To argue that the Starks made their bed and would have to lie in it, bile and thorns and suffering all, because of one broken marriage contract is silly and very shortsighted. It is quite to the contrary, actually, with Walder Frey and most of his ilk painting massive targets on themselves, and with no friends in the South and outright enemies in the North.

Even Lord Wyman Manderly followed the laws of guest right to the letter, presenting each despicable Frey with a guest gift before killing them. Surely a man who has to suffer men who were present or even complicit in his son's murder would have the right of it to despoil guest right and kill them in his own hall. Yet, he is aware that even he is not above reproach when it comes to laws and sacredly held traditions that have been in place far longer than his own people have even been residents of the continent.

I’m sorry, but you seem to have added word or imagined words that I’ve never said. Or maybe I have misread your argument.

I have never said that House Stark was weak; however, I did say that House Stark was honorable, even when Robb became an oathbreaker.

Also, once again, I seem to be running into more naïve readers. Do you truly think Tywin or Robb would have just got allowed Walder to hide in his castle? Robb probably would have, but what if he didn’t. Remember in the first book when Theon said, “We can take the Twins if you want to.” What if Robb had decided that Walder was going to betray him by attacking him when he was weakest? Moreover, what would happened when Tywin defeated Robb because Robb was going to lose eventually to Twin (Let’s be honest). Tywin had more men, and the North was staring to turn on him regardless, due to his poor leadership off the battlefield.

Walder could not defeat Robb with his own men, and Robb’s hopes of winning were fading. And the RW was not Walder’s only card, it was his best card at his disposal, to ensure his family’s safety, and to get revenge for being spurned by The King who lost the North. Tywin could’ve easily rooted House Frey’s members from their castle and kill or let them take the black. Thus, when the Freys are gone, Tywin could’ve gave the Twins to a faithful lord in the Westerlands, like Kevan Lannister.

Furthermore, I know that lords hold the Guest Rights (GR) sacred in Westeros, so your quote was basically void, but I enjoyed reading it nevertheless. I said throughout this thread that the RW was going to leave a blemish on House Frey’s image, but that’s the price I’d pay after the king I served lied to me in the face of gods and men. Walder cares for his family, more than many readers give him credit for.

[House Obama]

No.

But if the biggest, strongest guy in the whole bar was standing right behind me—a guy known to have brutally killed people who've gone against him in the past, a guy who had equally intimidating friends watching me from every corner of the bar—and this guy was whispering in my ear to punch the other guy in the face, and I knew that if I didn't, it was a good possibility that he or his friends would beat me to a pulp... then yeah, I'd probably punch that first guy in the face.

Yeah lol.

Are you talking about Tywin?

Frey could've just said to Robb; no you promised to mary me so one of my children would've been a queen of the North, now you betray me, so go f*ck yourself, I don't want an alliance anymore.

Do you really think that Tywin would've said: Oh mr frey, now you're going to die? Tywin would've been satisfied, because Robb's army would've been a lot less without the frey's. Walder Frey breaking the alliance with Robb in any way was the final blow to Robb's rebellion. Killing Robb didn't change anything, it only damaged his reputation.

And being pushed around by other 'big houses' was just the thing that Walder Frey was sick & tired off. That's the reason he wanted a queen was just because of that. And what did he end up to? Being pushed around and being a puppet of a big house (house lannister).

Lol, I love when people bash Walder for trying to advance his family, but do not say a word about Hoster Tully when he decided to not aid the Rebel against the Iron Throne. Hoster only helped when Ned wed Cateyln, and when Jon Arryn married Lysa Tully, but it’s cool because he was helping one of many people favorite character, Ned.

I keep saying the same words that I’m surprise I’m not a parrot because many reader are naïve, so I must keep repeating myself. Do you really think Robb would’ve allowed Walder to keep his castle, if Walder did not accept his apology? I don’t. Let’s say that Walder sat down on his chair with a sword on his lap, which means that he is denying Guest Rights. The Northerners would have been angry, and I am positive many of the lords would have told Robb that he should take the Twins because every day Walder live would have been a slap in his face.

A wise man like Walder would’ve though all of this out, and trust the Lannister or the Bolton would not have tried to save Walder. Roose knew that he couldn’t beat Robb on the battlefield, and Tywin’s men were in KL.

[Attitude]

Yeah lol.

Lol, I love when people bash Walder for trying to advance his family, but do not say a word about Hoster Tully when he decided to not aid the Rebel against the Iron Throne. Hoster only helped when Ned wed Cateyln, and when Jon Arryn married Lysa Tully, but it’s cool because he was helping one of many people favorite character, Ned.

I keep saying the same words that I’m surprise I’m not a parrot because many reader are naïve, so I must keep repeating myself. Do you really think Robb would’ve allowed Walder to keep his castle, if Walder did not accept his apology? I don’t. Let’s say that Walder sat down on his chair with a sword on his lap, which means that he is denying Guest Rights. The Northerners would have been angry, and I am positive many of the lords would have told Robb that he should take the Twins because every day Walder live would have been a slap in his face.

A wise man like Walder would’ve though all of this out, and trust the Lannister or the Bolton would not have tried to save Walder. Roose knew that he couldn’t beat Robb on the battlefield, and Tywin’s men were in KL.

You are laughing? This topic is about Walder Frey, you are starting to talk about Tully.

Imo Walder Frey made the the wrong choice.

[TheWanderer]

But if the biggest, strongest guy in the whole bar was standing right behind me—a guy known to have brutally killed people who've gone against him in the past, a guy who had equally intimidating friends watching me from every corner of the bar—and this guy was whispering in my ear to punch the other guy in the face, and I knew that if I didn't, it was a good possibility that he or his friends would beat me to a pulp... then yeah, I'd probably punch that first guy in the face.

If you want to take Tywin into account then you should adjust as follows:

1) The man who elbowed you is your boss.

2) The man telling you to punch him has, very recently, had his legs broken by your boss and is currently on the phone, not present in the room.

3) Your boss is perfectly willing to protect you from the thug.

4) The thug's cronies are also absent.

5) Your boss is surrounded by very loyal, very scary people and has dozens more equally loyal people scattered about the city.

Remember in the first book when Theon said, “We can take the Twins if you want to.”

And remember how all of Robb's veteran advisers say "No we can't"?

Moreover, what would happened when Tywin defeated Robb because Robb was going to lose eventually to Twin (Let’s be honest). Tywin had more men, and the North was staring to turn on him regardless, due to his poor leadership off the battlefield.

So Tywin's going to hunt down and slaughter every single Lord who fought for Robb? He couldn't even if he wanted to, and there's no reason he would want to. That he would hunt down a Lord who actually turned against Robb, and in so doing helped doom him, is completely ridiculous.

Walder cares for his family, more than many readers give him credit for.

And yet he has damned them for his pride. How much did he care for Jinglebell? How much for Ryman and Merret? How much for Roslin?

Lol, I love when people bash Walder for trying to advance his family, but do not say a word about Hoster Tully when he decided to not aid the Rebel against the Iron Throne. Hoster only helped when Ned wed Cateyln, and when Jon Arryn married Lysa Tully, but it’s cool because he was helping one of many people favorite character, Ned.

We've been over this before (or at least I have, you seem to skip over my posts a lot) but that's not what happened. Hoster Tully cemented a military alliance between equals and friends through marriages that were already in the works, his House did not rise in standing as a result.

Additionally, Hoster's plan worked. His daughters successfully married into powerful Houses, one of which later came to the aid of the Riverlands. Frey's plan, if it was truly intended to advance his family, backfired horribly. Edmure's child is valueless now (but was quite valuable before Robb's death), so the Frey's haven't moved up that way. The Frey's are widely despised for their betrayal, so they haven't moved up that way. They have fewer allies and no friends, their word is worth less than shit and their sigil is a death spot in their own lands. How has he advanced his family?

Do you really think Robb would’ve allowed Walder to keep his castle, if Walder did not accept his apology? I don’t.

Robb must retake Winterfell quickly. To do this he must cross the Twins quickly. He cannot take them by force (he couldn't on his way south and his army was larger then) and he cannot starve them out. His only option, like it was the first time, is to deal. If the only thing Walder could accept is Robb's head (which would be incredibly petty and short-sighted of him, and thus probably the case) then he could've stalled Robb's forces quite easily while Tywin took him from the rear. Even more so if he knew Bolton was working with him.

[Vic Sage]

The Late Lord Frey is easy to understand he's a man without any scruples and soul.The man is so myopic and ambitious it's now lead to the deaths of several of his children.

[House Obama]

You are laughing? This topic is about Walder Frey, you are starting to talk about Tully.

Imo Walder Frey made the the wrong choice.

The reason why I put the Tully in my argument was obvious :frown5:

[House Obama]

If you want to take Tywin into account then you should adjust as follows:

1) The man who elbowed you is your boss.

2) The man telling you to punch him has, very recently, had his legs broken by your boss and is currently on the phone, not present in the room.

3) Your boss is perfectly willing to protect you from the thug.

4) The thug's cronies are also absent.

5) Your boss is surrounded by very loyal, very scary people and has dozens more equally loyal people scattered about the city.

And remember how all of Robb's veteran advisers say "No we can't"?

So Tywin's going to hunt down and slaughter every single Lord who fought for Robb? He couldn't even if he wanted to, and there's no reason he would want to. That he would hunt down a Lord who actually turned against Robb, and in so doing helped doom him, is completely ridiculous.

And yet he has damned them for his pride. How much did he care for Jinglebell? How much for Ryman and Merret? How much for Roslin?

We've been over this before (or at least I have, you seem to skip over my posts a lot) but that's not what happened. Hoster Tully cemented a military alliance between equals and friends through marriages that were already in the works, his House did not rise in standing as a result.

Additionally, Hoster's plan worked. His daughters successfully married into powerful Houses, one of which later came to the aid of the Riverlands. Frey's plan, if it was truly intended to advance his family, backfired horribly. Edmure's child is valueless now (but was quite valuable before Robb's death), so the Frey's haven't moved up that way. The Frey's are widely despised for their betrayal, so they haven't moved up that way. They have fewer allies and no friends, their word is worth less than shit and their sigil is a death spot in their own lands. How has he advanced his family?

Robb must retake Winterfell quickly. To do this he must cross the Twins quickly. He cannot take them by force (he couldn't on his way south and his army was larger then) and he cannot starve them out. His only option, like it was the first time, is to deal. If the only thing Walder could accept is Robb's head (which would be incredibly petty and short-sighted of him, and thus probably the case) then he could've stalled Robb's forces quite easily while Tywin took him from the rear. Even more so if he knew Bolton was working with him.

No, all his bannermen warned him to not do it because it would take too much time. Remember, they wanted to rescue Ned as soon as possible.

Tywin definitely would've slaughter House Tully, and the Frey because they hold the Crossing.

Jinglebell was a halfwit, and Tyrion, plus many other characters made mention of how people with mental disability were treated. And Roslin was instrumental in his plan to secure his family safety. Ryman just had Bd luck by being hanged by the BwB.

What you had written is straight poppycock lol. First you contradict yourself by saying that Hoster had no motive for staying out the war until Ned and Jon married his daughters, but then you say that his plan worked by marrying Lysa and Catelyn into powerful houses… That’s exactly what Walder wanted to do, he saw an opportunity and struck a marry proposal to Catelyn for Robb and Arya. Plus, whereas, Jon and Ned were honorable by keeping their oath to marry Hoster’s daughter, Robb was not. Edmure’s child is worthless now because the Tully have no home lol, but some of the River lords may try to ransom for the baby’s safety.

Also, the Frey has move up the ladder in society because the Tully are no more. The Frey is currently the strongest house in the Riverlands, and I believe the richest too. However, they are not the Warden of the Riverlands though. House Frey has favor with the Iron Throne, plus the Bolton is their ally too.

If he denied Robb, the Lannister would probably had said, “Let them kill each other, then we will finish off the rest.” Once again, you have to remember that Joffrey’s wedding was already scheduled, so Tywin would not have leave to help the Frey even if he wanted too. The RW was a genius move, and fans of Robb are blinding themselves because it was not an honorable way for the “King who lost the North to die”.

Also, I never try to duck questions... I am sure that I have answered several of yours.

[Jehane]

Why on earth would Tywin slaughter the Freys for not killing Robb? Let's say Walder tells Robb "I'm not following you anymore, you broke your oath, you're no longer my king, now bugger off to Winterfell" - Robb's army is diminished, he loses a lot of strength by losing the Freys and will be easy to defeat. So in telling Robb that they are no longer allies and that he's withdrawing his men, Walder would have done Tywin a great favour by weakening Robb, thus making it easier for Tywin to destroy him. So why would Tywin want to kill Walder and his family? Robb would have lost either way and that's just what Tywin wanted.

And yeah, great job on Walder's side in moving his family up in society. His children are being killed for what he's done. Great caring for the family. If he cared so much, he would have been better off by getting rid of Robb another way. He's basically condemned his whole family, the same family he wants to advance in society. House Frey may be the most powerful House in the Riverlands right now but the price has been very high.

[DavosBolton]

Everyone tends to view Lord Frey as conniving and treacherous, but why? He do what Jaime does, protect their family.

Catelyn or Walder made a proposal that he would marry one of Frey’s daughters. Also, Arya was to wed one of his sons, but as the story progressed, houses started believing that Arya was dead. Walder Frey did not hold any spite for hers supposed death because the Stark had no control over it.

Walder Frey allowed Robb to cross the bridge unharmed, so he kept his oath. And to all the people who say, “He’s dishonorable, Walder should’ve let Robb pass because his liege lord had already declared for him,” are simply ignorant. Any wise man would’ve tried to advance his family’s name and legacy by marrying one of their children to a high lord, such as, Tully, Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Martell, Arryns, Florent or Tyrell. In one stroke, Walder had ensured that his family’s name would not be frown upon any longer.

When Robb was declared the King of The North at the Twins, Walder Frey was most likely elated upon hearing the news. Let’s us not forget, Walder Frey had no idea that Robb was going to become King of the North and Riverlands, and Walder may’ve wondered whether or not the Vale was going to proclaim him as King too because his aunt, Lysa, was the lord of the Vale. In an instant, Walder’s family had been raised to a respectable level. And to hear that Robb had married another girl after swearing an oath to him is beyond disrespectful, and Jeyne’s family was the lowest of the lords.

Walder Frey’s heir died while fighting in the war, and then his second heir perished too. Nevertheless, Walder still maintained support for Robb. Furthermore, the death of his sons must have been impactful for Lord Walder too because he does really care for his family, despite everyone saying that he only have self-interested. Then for Robb to married Jeyne, and to justify it by basically saying, “The King can do as he pleases,” is otherworldly disrespectful. I am sure Walder would have understood that Robb begot a bastard because he was emotionally weak from the loss of his brothers. Walder have bastards, he would have understood. But for Robb to marry her and still request his army is moronic. As Catelyn stated, “Walder do not want a lord, he want a king.”

When the book was drawing near to the RW, Walder still showed support in Robb’s cause. Even though Robb was losing the war of the Five Kings, but Robb showed stupidity by beheading Lord Karstark, which cost him a large portion of his army. And the North already had fewer men than the Reach and Westerlands. Therefore, Walder would have been silly to continue fighting for a man who spurned him and his family. Anyone who’s not a pushover would have done exactly what Walder did (though probably not as cruel; like chopping Robb’s head off and replacing it with his direwolf). Robb broke a vow; therefore, Walder had every right to break the laws of hospitality. By doing the RW, Walder ensured his family’s safety and became Lord Paramount of the Riverlands… Not bad for a Plan B!

People hold spite toward Lord Frey because of his history, but when Robb proclaimed that he was warring against the Iron Throne, Walder gave his support. And thus, this is why he needs more fans than “The King who Lost the North.” :cool4:

Well said. Walder Frey lent VERY generous military support to Robb. He also supported Robb without question when he became King in the North.

If Robb didn't marry Jeyne Westerling to betray his oath, there would be no Red Wedding. And without the RW, any objective person would realize that Robb gained A LOT from having Walder Frey as father-in-law and bannerman.

Walder would have NEVER betrayed Robb unless Robb betrayed him first. At worst, Walder plays the neutral, waiting game, like what he did during Robert's Rebellion. Many lords played that game and only committed at the last moment, including Tywin.

[TheWanderer]

No, all his bannermen warned him to not do it because it would take too much time. Remember, they wanted to rescue Ned as soon as possible.

Bolton's words were "That cannot be taken"

Besides which, Robb's still in a hurry going back north.

Tywin definitely would've slaughter House Tully, and the Frey because they hold the Crossing.

And yet Tywin didn't slaughter House Tully. There's no reason he would slaughter the Freys simply because they have a useful seat, he hasn't done that to other lords in similar positions.

And Roslin was instrumental in his plan to secure his family safety. Ryman just had Bd luck by being hanged by the BwB.

He has destroyed Roslin's life and ended Ryman's, to secure his families safety? Does that make sense? If Walder cared for Roslin he would've not have committed cardinal sins on what is supposed to be one of the best days of her life and he wouldn't have thrown her husband into prison during their wedding night. If Walder cared for his sons he wouldn't have done something that would cause the entire country to turn against them, giving hundreds of very bad men a very good reason to try and kill them.

What you had written is straight poppycock lol. First you contradict yourself by saying that Hoster had no motive for staying out the war until Ned and Jon married his daughters, but then you say that his plan worked by marrying Lysa and Catelyn into powerful houses…

Hoster didn't join the war because of the marriages. The marriages were beneficial to his daughters and the future of the Riverlands. Those are not contradictory statements.

That’s exactly what Walder wanted to do, he saw an opportunity and struck a marry proposal to Catelyn for Robb and Arya.

And I'm not holding that against him, I don't think anyone is.

Also, the Frey has move up the ladder in society because the Tully are no more. The Frey is currently the strongest house in the Riverlands, and I believe the richest too.

The ladder got shorter, yet they still moved down. I don't see the Brackens, Blackwoods or Mallisters being murdered in their own lands, which is as sure a sign of strength as any. They may be rich now, but you can bet your ass no ones paying the toll any more.

House Frey has favor with the Iron Throne,

Do they? They may have had some favour with Tywin, but Tywin's dead and Cersei doesn't care about them. Plus supporting them publicly is political suicide

plus the Bolton is their ally too.

An ally who happily sends their men to their deaths unsupported.

Once again, you have to remember that Joffrey’s wedding was already scheduled, so Tywin would not have leave to help the Frey even if he wanted too.

You're kidding right? Tywin wouldn't have been allowed to win the war in order to attend his grandsons wedding. Who even tells Tywin what he can and cannot do?

The RW was a genius move, and fans of Robb are blinding themselves because it was not an honorable way for the “King who lost the North to die”.

It was a master-stroke. For Tywin. It was a shitty move for Walder Frey though. I don't know how any plan that results in your own children being hunted and hanged in your lands can be called genius.

[Attitude]

It was a master-stroke. For Tywin. It was a shitty move for Walder Frey though. I don't know how any plan that results in your own children being hunted and hanged in your lands can be called genius.

Agreed, can we change the name of the topic to:

The misunderstood Lord Tywin Lannister: He should’ve killed Robb

[ambi76]

Sure Walder should have challenged Robb to single combat over the broken oath (Like Lyonel did with Egg/Dunk). What I'm saying is the manner of the killing is the problem not necessarily the killing itself.

But who are we kidding? If Walder or rather Walder's champion would have won, fandom would still be pissed at him.

[House Obama]

Well said. Walder Frey lent VERY generous military support to Robb. He also supported Robb without question when he became King in the North.

If Robb didn't marry Jeyne Westerling to betray his oath, there would be no Red Wedding. And without the RW, any objective person would realize that Robb gained A LOT from having Walder Frey as father-in-law and bannerman.

Walder would have NEVER betrayed Robb unless Robb betrayed him first. At worst, Walder plays the neutral, waiting game, like what he did during Robert's Rebellion. Many lords played that game and only committed at the last moment, including Tywin.

Thanks mate, I ‘m glad another reader agrees with my points. There’re too many fans of Robb who are deliberately blinding themselves to his faults.

Robb was one of my favorite characters, but he was an honorable fool like his father.

Because of Walder’s personality, nobody wants to admit that he did the right thing by killing Robb… He’s in the Stannis category, where everyone knows he right, but due to his attitude no one likes him.

Sure Walder should have challenged Robb to single combat over the broken oath (Like Lyonel did with Egg/Dunk). What I'm saying is the manner of the killing is the problem not necessarily the killing itself.

But who are we kidding? If Walder or rather Walder's champion would have won, fandom would still be pissed at him.

There isn’t a “if Walder” lol, he’s ancient. Let’s say Walder did request a trail by combat versus Robb, which is ridiculous because Robb’s bannermen would most likely kill Walder if his champion kills their king. And let’s be honest, Robb would never risk the rebellion to appease Walder (Or maybe he would because he committed many blunders already)… thanks for the comment though!

[House Obama]

Bolton's words were "That cannot be taken"

Besides which, Robb's still in a hurry going back north.

And yet Tywin didn't slaughter House Tully. There's no reason he would slaughter the Freys simply because they have a useful seat, he hasn't done that to other lords in similar positions.

He has destroyed Roslin's life and ended Ryman's, to secure his families safety? Does that make sense? If Walder cared for Roslin he would've not have committed cardinal sins on what is supposed to be one of the best days of her life and he wouldn't have thrown her husband into prison during their wedding night. If Walder cared for his sons he wouldn't have done something that would cause the entire country to turn against them, giving hundreds of very bad men a very good reason to try and kill them.

Hoster didn't join the war because of the marriages. The marriages were beneficial to his daughters and the future of the Riverlands. Those are not contradictory statements.

And I'm not holding that against him, I don't think anyone is.

The ladder got shorter, yet they still moved down. I don't see the Brackens, Blackwoods or Mallisters being murdered in their own lands, which is as sure a sign of strength as any. They may be rich now, but you can bet your ass no ones paying the toll any more.

Do they? They may have had some favour with Tywin, but Tywin's dead and Cersei doesn't care about them. Plus supporting them publicly is political suicide

An ally who happily sends their men to their deaths unsupported.

You're kidding right? Tywin wouldn't have been allowed to win the war in order to attend his grandsons wedding. Who even tells Tywin what he can and cannot do?

It was a master-stroke. For Tywin. It was a shitty move for Walder Frey though. I don't know how any plan that results in your own children being hunted and hanged in your lands can be called genius.

They could not be taken in time. The Twins are not invincible to sieges.

What are you talking about?! He stripped the Tully of their castle, and many of the lord’s sons and daughters in Robb’s army are being taken as “honor guests”, pleasant words for hostage. And House Stark is basically eradicated from Westeros… by the gods, I can go on and on.

Roslin’s had to be a part of the plan to protect THEIR family! And once again, how was Walder supposed to know that Ryman was going to be hang, I believe Ryman was going there to ransom for the BwB’s hostage. And Walder chose the best option he believed would ensure his family’s safety. Give the codger a break, as I said throughout this, which many commenters agreed with, the RW was the best option.

Walder or Catelyn’s proposal was beneficial to his son and daughter’s future and to the Twin… so yeah.

The ladder got shorter, but they’re on the top lol. And don’t forget that the Brackens, Blackwoods, and Mallisters have to give their heir or heirs to the Iron Throne. And we shall see if the usuage of their toll diminish, which I betting it will.

As I said before, it has been a string of bad luck for the Freys. And the Iron Throne has supported them publicly, they named Walder’s son as the lord of Riverrun. Every lord in Westeros knows that the Iron Throne is backing them.

An ally who married one of Walder’s daughter to cement their alliance.

I am not saying that. I am saying that Tywin would not have blew his nephew’s wedding to assist the Frey. That would had been in very bad taste, and yes I know, the Frey would’ve been helping them if he did.

It was a master plan constructed by Twin, no doubts. But, Walder must’ve known that the stain would be on his hands, not Tywin.

[Jehane]

Sure Walder should have challenged Robb to single combat over the broken oath (Like Lyonel did with Egg/Dunk). What I'm saying is the manner of the killing is the problem not necessarily the killing itself.

But who are we kidding? If Walder or rather Walder's champion would have won, fandom would still be pissed at him.

Nope. If Walder had chosen to challenge Robb to single combat resp. send his champion to fight Robb, with Robb dying as a consequence, that would have been fine with me. After all, Robb had it coming. He's so much like Ned - honor above everything else, even if it gets him killed. I do agree that Walder had every right to be pissed at Robb but he could have handled this differently. He could have told Robb "I'm done with you, I'm withdrawing my support, and above all, here's my champion who will challenge you to single combat". He could also have told Robb that he's no longer with him but with the Lannisters. Withdrawing his forces would have weakened Robb, especially since the Boltons and the Karstarks were leaving as well. Robb was doomed anyway. I'm still fine with that. What really got to me when I was reading the RW was the knowledge that Arya was just outside the Twins and her mother was inside, me knowing that they'd not meet again. And you do not break guest right. That's just atrocious. Also, I think that Tywin used Walder as a puppet. Tywin got what he wanted, while Walder has to live with the knowledge that his children and grandchildren are being slaugthered in the Riverlands because he chose to team up with Tywin. I never will like Walder but I think he's been played.