The misunderstood Lord Walder Frey: He should’ve killed Robb

[Attitude]

It was simply a deceive and not true forgiveness. Robb broke his word, humilated Freys in front of all of the high Lords, dashed Frey's hope to improve the status of his family to one of the great noble house in the seven kingdoms, a dream of House Frey for generations. To make thing worse, Robb did this after House Frey has already paid the price of:

1) two of Walder Frey's sons died for Robb

2) Spend a large amount of money on Robb's war

3) Suffered large casualites

4) As one of the major rebel leaders and because Robb was losing the war, House Frey was risk losing their lives, land and titles from the wrath of the iron thrones.

It is justified to say what Robb did to Freys was simply unforgivable.

Whether or not it was unforgivable depends on your interpretation. I think there are a lot more things that were unforgivable for some high lords (Elia's death by the hand of the Lannisters), but did these kind of things always result in a massacre? No.

Frey was a house loyal to the riverlands, and the riverlands declared allegiance to tKotN (Robb). Therefor, Walder Frey did not only break the house rules, he also broke his vow to house Tully (lesser houses were supposed to follow their liege Lords. (The only reason Robb negotiated anything with Walder, was because he practically had no other option + Catelyn knew Walder wouldn't allow him to cross without any tribute, because he is a greedy old and selfish man.

But besides this all, whether or not it was justified or not, it is still a matter of opinion whether his actions were acceptable or not. Purely by the (unwritten) rules of the 7 kingdoms, it was not. But by rules of survival, it might was.

[TheWanderer]

It was simply a deceive and not true forgiveness.

How does that make it better?

dashed Frey's hope to improve the status of his family to one of the great noble house in the seven kingdoms, a dream of House Frey for generations.

Firstly, I don't think the Frey's have been scheming to become a 'great' house (do you mean Great House, like Tully or Stark or great House, like Tarly?) for generations. Secondly, if Robb dashed those hopes by marrying a Frey to Tully then what did Walder do by ensuring his progeny will not be trusted for generations?

To make thing worse, Robb did this after House Frey has already paid the price of:

1) two of Walder Frey's sons died for Robb

2) Spend a large amount of money on Robb's war

3) Suffered large casualites

4) As one of the major rebel leaders and because Robb was losing the war, House Frey was risk losing their lives, land and titles from the wrath of the iron thrones.

1) Not Robb's fault. Also, more Freys have died since the RW then during the war.

2) Proof of this? Also, not required of Walder and therefore, not Robb's fault.

3) Again, proof? And again, not really Robb's fault. Also, large casualties are being suffered now, in the North.

4) And once more, proof? I get the feeling that people don't understand how wars end in Westeros, because they don't end in the wholesale massacre of Houses. How many Houses were exterminated by the Targareans after that war ended? How many by Robert? Or in the Young Dragon's invasion?

It is justified to say what Robb did to Freys was simply unforgivable.

No, no it's not. What Robb did is totally forgivable, much worse things have been forgiven in the series. What Walder did is unforgivable, and his decedents will be paying for it, in blood, for as long as the Freys survive.

People seem to forget that House Frey may not be a Great House in the status of Westeros, but they are a highly formidable house, with lands and probably one of the richest in Westeros too.

Um, no. One of the richest in the Riverlands? Sure. In all of Westeros though? Please. Most Houses in the Westerlands and the Reach would be vastly wealthier, as would several in the Crownlands, Stormlands and Vale. Tully would be richer even.

Riverrun may be the third most wanted castle in the Riverlands, behind Harrenhal and the Twins.

Hah! They give Harrenhal away, twice! Those are not anywhere near the top three most desirable castles in Westeros.

For y’all who think that Tywin would not have stripped Walder of his castle, please pick up the books and read them again.

"When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."

Tywin Lannister.

The Twins are known for being an excellent strategic point for war in Westeros. Its importance in the Riverlands is equivalent to Moat Cailing to the North.

They are a useful strategic point for war between the North and south but no where near as valuable as Moat Cailin. You cannot enter the North without passing through Cailin, you can quite easily enter the south without passing anywhere near the Twins. Look at a map and you'll see that the Kingsroad doesn't pass within miles of it. Further, why does Tywin need the Twins? He's ended the war with the North and placed his own ruler there. No threat is coming down from the North in the foreseeable future. If Frey turns before Robb is defeated then he will remain steward of the Twins for certain.

[Attitude]

They are a useful strategic point for war between the North and south but no where near as valuable as Moat Cailin. You cannot enter the North without passing through Cailin, you can quite easily enter the south without passing anywhere near the Twins. Look at a map and you'll see that the Kingsroad doesn't pass within miles of it. Further, why does Tywin need the Twins? He's ended the war with the North and placed his own ruler there. No threat is coming down from the North in the foreseeable future. If Frey turns before Robb is defeated then he will remain steward of the Twins for certain.

First of all, really like this post. (snipped it a little). I didn't feel like putting any more effort into these 'facts' because I felt like they weren't listening at all.

But this last part, I just wanted to add the following:

One of the only good points people have made in this post is the point that Robb NEEDED house frey to cross the green fork. However, they said that 'this is the only way to cross the rivers to the south'. This is absolutely not true. At that point in the war, it was Robb's only option to croos the rivers to the south. If the Frey's really were the only people who had a connection across a river to the north, they would've been a larg(er) house a long time ago. The thing is, because the tully's lost a couple of battles in the riverlands, Tywin was able to block the main road (a bit north of harrenhal) to KL. After that, Robb had two options: Face Tywin with both their main army's, which most likely would've been a clear defeat for Robb. He second option was doing what he did, and break the siege at riverrun.

Robb's moves weren't his only options, it were his best options. Thinking that the frey's are so powerful because they hold the only crossing is stupid. If it wasn't for the rivers to have been flooded, because they he could've crossed without using a bridge.

[House Obama]

First of all, really like this post. (snipped it a little). I didn't feel like putting any more effort into these 'facts' because I felt like they weren't listening at all.

But this last part, I just wanted to add the following:

One of the only good points people have made in this post is the point that Robb NEEDED house frey to cross the green fork. However, they said that 'this is the only way to cross the rivers to the south'. This is absolutely not true. At that point in the war, it was Robb's only option to croos the rivers to the south. If the Frey's really were the only people who had a connection across a river to the north, they would've been a larg(er) house a long time ago. The thing is, because the tully's lost a couple of battles in the riverlands, Tywin was able to block the main road (a bit north of harrenhal) to KL. After that, Robb had two options: Face Tywin with both their main army's, which most likely would've been a clear defeat for Robb. He second option was doing what he did, and break the siege at riverrun.

Robb's moves weren't his only options, it were his best options. Thinking that the frey's are so powerful because they hold the only crossing is stupid. If it wasn't for the rivers to have been flooded, because they he could've crossed without using a bridge.

I was not the person who said that the Twins were the only way to travel south. It was just the quickest and less treacherous. Robb needed to Cross the Twins because he had a large army, and he was rushing to save his father from the Lannister. And House is most likely the richest house in the Riverlands, and probably one of the richest in Westeros. Liege lords are not automatically the richest lord in their kingdom; for example, House Manderly is the richest house in the North.

Also, I do agree that Robb should have broken the siege at Riverrun because that was the most beneficial move. And House Frey is powerful because they have a formidable army.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And House is most likely the richest house in the Riverlands, and probably one of the richest in Westeros.

Why?

[TheWanderer]

I was not the person who said that the Twins were the only way to travel south.

You said it was as strategically valuable as Moat Cailin. It is not. Because it is not the only, or indeed the main, way south. This is also why House Frey isn't all that wealthy, they don't get all that many travelers looking to use their bridge and thus not all that many tolls to collect.

[Attitude]

You said it was as strategically valuable as Moat Cailin. It is not. Because it is not the only, or indeed the main, way south. This is also why House Frey isn't all that wealthy, they don't get all that many travelers looking to use their bridge and thus not all that many tolls to collect.

Exactly. If the Tully's wouldn't have been defeated by GC & TL so quickly at a couple of important strategic positions, Robb could've crossed at the twins, facing Tywin as a complete army. But this was not the case, which ended up in what we have now (which I love btw, Robb taking the IT and hanging Tywin & co would make this series a lot less interesting.

[Luddagain]

Robb was a boy doing a man's job. Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton outplayed him because he KNEW that Robb like ALL other good hearted noble boys would save a girl's honour ahead of his own. Robb just 5 years older would not have behaved like a romantic teenager. Problem was he WAS just a romantic teenager and easily played. Ned and Ser Rodrik had taught him battle skills and he was good at it, but in the game of life and people Robb was still a baby. Robb was pretty much the male equivalent of Sansa, well brought up and honourable but naive and easily manipulated.

[House Obama]

You said it was as strategically valuable as Moat Cailin. It is not. Because it is not the only, or indeed the main, way south. This is also why House Frey isn't all that wealthy, they don't get all that many travelers looking to use their bridge and thus not all that many tolls to collect.

House Frey do collect a lot of tolls lol. Also, mayhaps I overrated its importance, but House Frey is a very important castle during war times.

Exactly. If the Tully's wouldn't have been defeated by GC & TL so quickly at a couple of important strategic positions, Robb could've crossed at the twins, facing Tywin as a complete army. But this was not the case, which ended up in what we have now (which I love btw, Robb taking the IT and hanging Tywin & co would make this series a lot less interesting.

If, if, if. There are a lot of "ifs" in the world, especially in ASOIAF, Robb could've won the war if his blunders weren't so egregious.

[Attitude]

Robb was a boy doing a man's job. Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton outplayed him because he KNEW that Robb like ALL other good hearted noble boys would save a girl's honour ahead of his own. Robb just 5 years older would not have behaved like a romantic teenager. Problem was he WAS just a romantic teenager and easily played. Ned and Ser Rodrik had taught him battle skills and he was good at it, but in the game of life and people Robb was still a baby. Robb was pretty much the male equivalent of Sansa, well brought up and honourable but naive and easily manipulated.

So you're saying they (Tywin & Roose) have put Jeyne Westerling out there and told her: please seduce Robb so we can kill him at a wedding at the Twins. No way.

The only thing Tywin did (Roose didn't do anything besides biting in the bait(The North) of Tywin), was taking advantage of Robbs fault + Lord Frey's shortsighted mind. Tywin knew Lord Frey doesn't like to take risks (e.g. going to war), so Tywin gave him the best solution, since getting a QotN wasn't a possibility anymore.

Yes you're right, Robb was still a baby 'in the game of life' in some way, but this all wasn't planned by Tywin nor Roose. Tywin only anticipated very quickly and took advantage of his mistake. It had nothing to do with boy's and men, it had to do with Robb's little dick that wanted to go into Jeyne when she comforted him after he had learned of the (presumed) loss of his two little brothers. If sleeping with a girl during a war would lead you do a downfall, Robert Baratheon never would've won the war.

If, if, if. There are a lot of "ifs" in the world, especially in ASOIAF, Robb could've won the war if his blunders weren't so egregious.

Don't act like this, it feels childish. Yes, there are only IF's on this forum. We only speculate because only what GRRM writes is the truth.

No, Robb had no position to win the war anymore. He knew that himself. That's why he tried to siege casterly rock and went west instead of east.

Robb lost the war in the riverlands when his allies weren't able to hold of Tywin & co long enough for Robb to cross the trident at the kings road. But he lost his dignity & his life (+ those of his men) when he fucked Jeyne Westerling. He mistakes didn't make him lose the war. His mistakes make him lose his life.

[marsyao]

So you're saying they (Tywin & Roose) have put Jeyne Westerling out there and told her: please seduce Robb so we can kill him at a wedding at the Twins. No way.

I do not think Tywin plot with House Westerling to marry Jeyne to Robb, but it is very much clear in the book that sometime between Robb slept with Jeyen and their wedding, Tywin was informed this affair, he quickly grasp Robb's folly and strucked a deal with Sybell Spicer, who would do everything in her power to make this marriage happened. And that was the reason why House Westerling, despite of being the house of the Queen of the rebelion, not only received a royal pardon but also receive high reward for their service

[Attitude]

I do not think Tywin plot with House Westerling to marry Jeyne to Robb, but it is very much clear in the book that sometime between Robb slept with Jeyen and their wedding, Tywin was informed this affair, he quickly grasp Robb's folly and strucked a deal with Sybell Spicer, who would do everything in her power to make this marriage happened. And that was the reason why House Westerling, despite of being the house of the Queen of the rebelion, not only received a royal pardon but also receive high reward for their service

That was what I said, I just didn't name the people (because I didn't remember the names anymore). Tywin anticipated it very quickly and very good, but this wasn't the moment Robb lost the war. He said it already before; I've won every battle (but his allies didn't), but I'm losing the war.. (Not a quote, but it was something like this)

[Jehane]

@marsyao: Hang on. Robb and Jeyne got married the very next day after they had slept together; Robb confirms this in the Cat-POV in which he brings Jeyne back with him. There's no way that a raven could have flewn to KL to inform Tywin, another flying back to Lady Sybell proposing a deal and yet another flying to KL to confirm the deal. Robb married Jeyne because, as he says himself, it was the only honorable thing to do. Even if there had been time for the ravens to fly back and forth, a plot like the one you propose wouldn't have been necessary simply because Robb is a Stark and thus can be trusted to put honor above everything. I think he's very much like Ned even though I believe that Ned would have handled the situation differently - Ned would probably have told the girl "Look, this is just one night of fun, I cannot marry you because I'm already betrothed" - but than again, we don't know what Ned was like as a teenager.

[marsyao]

but than again, we don't know what Ned was like as a teenager.

We do know he was a good friend and playmate of Robert

[House Obama]

Don't act like this, it feels childish. Yes, there are only IF's on this forum. We only speculate because only what GRRM writes is the truth.

No, Robb had no position to win the war anymore. He knew that himself. That's why he tried to siege casterly rock and went west instead of east.

Robb lost the war in the riverlands when his allies weren't able to hold of Tywin & co long enough for Robb to cross the trident at the kings road. But he lost his dignity & his life (+ those of his men) when he fucked Jeyne Westerling. He mistakes didn't make him lose the war. His mistakes make him lose his life.

I guess I did sound a little childish… Robb did not lose the war in the Riverlands because of that. He lost the war because Edmure committed a serious blow to them strategically by attacking the Mountain. Ned would’ve won the war.

I do not think Tywin plot with House Westerling to marry Jeyne to Robb, but it is very much clear in the book that sometime between Robb slept with Jeyen and their wedding, Tywin was informed this affair, he quickly grasp Robb's folly and strucked a deal with Sybell Spicer, who would do everything in her power to make this marriage happened. And that was the reason why House Westerling, despite of being the house of the Queen of the rebelion, not only received a royal pardon but also receive high reward for their service

This is insightful. I never got that while reading… the more you know!

Also, Robb was just dumb to marry her. He should’ve said, “Oh, I’m so sorry that I spilled my seed in you, but I have never been with a woman. I will raise the bastard in my house, like my father did with my brother, Jon Snow. I cannot marry you because I am promise to another.”