Heresy 138 The Kings of Winter

[Black Crow]

I wasn't suggesting that the segment itself provides spoilers. Rather, the decision to devote a segment to the story of the Night's King, when so much history and mythology has been left on the cutting room floor (even in the DVD extras) is, in and of itself, a revealing decision. Granted, it's not as interesting after the Oathkeeper synopsis naming the present WW leader as the Night's King, but still further confirmation that it's important information (misinformation) to have in understanding the story.

We don't know how much of the detail the show-runners had early on, although given the need for that meeting in Santa Fe last year it probably wasn't a lot, but they did know the ending, and that notorious [post Santa Fe] scene in the latest series does suggest that the Nights King has some importance - as does the fact his story is included in the Nights Watch essay in the World Book. However, given that lack of detail I wouldn't attach any significance as to the treatment of the story in the DVD. If it wasn't to be told by Old Nan somebody had to tell it and a descendant of Joruman's people seems as good as any.

[Black Crow]

Well! It is possible the Night's King did occupy both sides of the wall at the Black Gate.

Perhaps its simpler than that; and the Nights King guarded the southern end of the portal while the white lady guarded the northern end.

[Matthew.]

Or does Qhorin Halfhand know something we don't?

Given that Qhorin also wanted Mormont to know that "the trees have eyes again," I'd say him and Mormont definitely knew a lot more than we, through the POV characters, know. In addition to all of the points you raised, it's also extraordinary that Mormont would have begun fast-tracking Jon Snow as a potential replacement LC. Sure, Jon's competent, but surely with all that's going on it would have been better to have a veteran, with well established relationships and a proven leadership record, as the person you're setting up as your favored replacement... unless you know something more about what's going on, and foresee a future where having a Stark LC might be vital.

[Black Crow]

Yes, the story of the Night's King mentions "Joramun of the wildlings", but does it explicitly have to say "King Beyond the Wall" to know that was his actual position? He was obviously a leader, so that's probably all that is important.

A possible answer is that that there were wildlings [ie; masterless men] on both sides of the Wall and after the overthrow of the Nights King it was possible for Joruman to go beyond the Wall as protector of those living above it and it may be a happy recollection of this service which might explain that strange respect which the Wildlings seem to have for the name of Stark.

[Black Crow]

Here's a little hare-brained idea. Doesn't everyone seem a bit obsessed with Jon Snow's company? Ever wonder why? (I mean, I know you have... that's what we're doing here, right?) What if the last comment here by Qhorin Halfhand has a double meaning?:

Qhorin Halfhand turned his head. His eyes met Jon's, and held them for a long moment. "Very well. I choose Jon Snow."

Mormont blinked. "He is hardly more than a boy. And my steward besides. Not even a ranger."

"Tollett can care for you as well, my lord." Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men… and the Starks." (2.43)

Doesn't it seem a bit strange that Qhorin chooses Jon for his ranging in the first place? They've never met. He knows nothing about the boy - whether he'll be a help or a hindrance to the mission - apart from his identity as Ned Stark's bastard. With nothing else to go on, you'd almost think Qhorin decided to take him along as a good luck charm. And frankly... he wouldn't be the first one. Check this out:

"Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

"No." Jon had not thought of it that way.

"Your lord father sent you to us, Jon. Why, who can say? ... All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours... he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I'm not." Lord Mormont stabbed a chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. "I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall." (1.70)

He wouldn't be the last one, either. Everyone seems to think Jon Snow would make a great addition to the team:

"My lord," he said, "you never asked me how it went. With the girl."

"I am no lord, Jon Snow." Qhorin slid the stone smoothly along the steel with his two-fingered hand.

"She told me Mance would take me, if I ran with her."

"She told you true." (2.53)

So...is Jon Snow some sort of good luck charm? Is he just a really great guy? Or does Qhorin Halfhand know something we don't? What does he mean when he says, "the old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men… and the Starks." Does he mean that "the old gods" are "the gods [both] of the First Men... and [of] the Starks?" Or does he mean that included among "the old gods... still strong beyond the Wall" are both "the gods of the First Men" and also "the Starks?" The people of Thenn hold their Magnar to be both a lord and a god, right?

(Kinda puts me in mind of the way everyone aboard the Titan's Daughter wants to make sure Arya remembers their name...)

You mean he is being recognised by them as the prince that has been promised:

I came to them out of mists and rain;

I came to them in dreams at midnight;

I came to them in a flock of ravens that filled a northern sky at dawn;

When they thought themselves safe I came to them in a cry that broke the silence of a winter wood...

The rain made a door for me and I went through it;

The stones made a throne for me and I sat upon it;

[SerTarod]

We had speculated before whether or not Bowen "Marsh" was from the Neck and whether or not his family would have any historical knowledge from the days of the Pact. What I keep going back to are Melisandre's words that Jon's enemies are the ones that smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind his back. Bowen Marsh never hid his dislike for Jon, so wouldn't that exclude him as one the enemies Melisandre was referring to?

Another thing that briefly crossed my mind is whether or not the Wall is made of white walkers? If the horn of Jeramun wakes the giants and is capable of bringing the Wall down, what if the way it's brought down is to awaken giants of ice? By "giants" I don't mean in "size", but rather that they're powerful.

[SerTarod]

Feather Crystal, your "giants" comment reminds me of the Nephilim from Genesis Ch 6: "they were the heros of old, men of renown", often Nephilim is translated as giants. :)

[Black Crow]

Feather Crystal, your "giants" comment reminds me of the Nephilim from Genesis Ch 6: "they were the heros of old, men of renown", often Nephilim is translated as giants. :)

Entirely possible. As you might gather from some of the discussion on this thread there is a certain reluctance among the wider readership to accept the use of metaphor and to assume a literal meaning for things like a time of great darkness.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

You mean he is being recognised by them as the prince that has been promised:

I came to them out of mists and rain;

I came to them in dreams at midnight;

I came to them in a flock of ravens that filled a northern sky at dawn;

When they thought themselves safe I came to them in a cry that broke the silence of a winter wood...

The rain made a door for me and I went through it;

The stones made a throne for me and I sat upon it;

Well yes, actually... that is another question that nags me a bit. Beyond the Wall, everyone seems to recognize Jon Snow's face. Craster, Qhorin, and Mance - they all know him, and comment on the familiarity of his face. "He had the Stark face, if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away."

Tangentially, but keeping with the John Uskglass connection, there are depths to be plumbed in Martin's text with respect to both slavery and namelessness. Namelessness is a characteristic of the old gods... it is an emphasized part of the training of the Unsullied... and it is also part of the identity of bastards in Westeros. Jon's story in these books begins with his own claiming of that nameless identity:

"Lord Stark," Jon said. It was strange to hear him call Father that, so formal. Bran looked at him with desperate hope. "There are five pups," he told Father. "Three male, two female."

"What of it, Jon?"

"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord."

Bran saw his father's face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

"The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark," Jon pointed out. "I am no Stark, Father."

We've discussed the mythologies of Cadmus and Jason, the notion of "sowing the dragon's teeth," and Martin's link of dragon's teeth to the issues of freedom/slavery. That line... "better to die free, than to live a slave"... is uttered by one of Craster's wives, and referenced again by Tyrion, who reflects that, though proud men might loudly proclaim it, yet "when the steel struck the flint, such men were rare as dragon's teeth; elsewise the world would not have been so full of slaves."

But that particular line, "better to die free, than to live a slave," is not of Martin's making. It's famous. It appears every now and then through history - and one of the most celebrated persons to whom it is attributed is Frederick Douglass, an African-American man who had escaped bondage himself, and became a prominent abolitionist (and important voice) during the years leading up to the American Civil War. In his 1863 speech, "Men of Color to Arms," in which he called his fellow African-Americans to join the battle, Douglass declared:

"Better even die free, than to live slaves.” This is the sentiment of every brave colored man amongst us. There are weak and cowardly men in all nations. We have them amongst us. They tell you this is the “white man’s war”; and you will be “no better off after than before the war”; that the getting of you into the army is to “sacrifice you on the first opportunity.” Believe them not; cowards themselves, they do not wish to have their cowardice shamed by your brave example. Leave them to their timidity, or to whatever motive may hold them back. I have not thought lightly of the words I am now addressing you. The counsel I give comes of close observation of the great struggle now in progress, and of the deep conviction that this is your hour and mine. In good earnest then, and after the best deliberation, I now for the first time during this war feel at liberty to call and counsel you to arms...

Eighty years later, in 1943, poet Langston Hughes recalled Douglass' words in his poem Freedom's Plow:

Then a man said:

BETTER TO DIE FREE

THAN TO LIVE SLAVES

He was a colored man who had been a slave

But had run away to freedom.

And the slaves knew

What Frederick Douglass said was true.

Having put that out there, then... I want to point out that Martin may have gone all in on this question of slavery and freedom. It's more obvious in Dany's storyline, of course... with her campaign through the slave cities, and her abolition of slavery beginning with the Unsullied. And later in Tyrion's narrative, as he travels Essos and is enslaved himself. But it's still very curious to me that we have that line uttered by Craster's wife, north of the Wall. And the dragon's teeth / sown men metaphor offers another powerful tie-in to the question that might pull in Jon Snow.

Here is the poem Bury Them, by Henry Howard Brownell, written in 1863, to commemorate the bravery of the Union Army's Fifty-Fourth Massachusetts Regiment - it's first regiment of African American volunteers. In July 1863, the Fifty-Fourth led a frontal assault against Morris Island's Fort Wagner in South Carolina, and were mown down... 272 killed, wounded or taken prisoner. Northern newspapers later reported that the unit's white commander, Colonel Robert Gould Shaw, had been buried together with his black men in a mass grave, as a gesture of contempt. Abolitionists reinterpreted the burial as a mark of distinction. And Henry Howard Brownell put it into verse:

BURY THEM.

by Henry Howard Brownell (1863)

Bury the Dragon's teeth!

Bury them deep and dark!

The incisors swart and stark,

The molars heavy and dark—

And the one white Fang underneath!

Bury the Hope Forlorn!

Never shudder to fling,

With its fellows dusky and worn,

The strong and beautiful thing,

(Pallid ivory and pearl!)

Into the horrible Pit—

Hurry it in, and hurl

All the rest over it!

Trample them, clod by clod,

Stamp them in dust amain!

The cupsids, cruent and red

That the Monster, Freedom, shed

On the sacred, strong Slave-Sod—

They never shall rise again!

Never?—what hideous growth

Is sprouting through clod and clay?

What Terror starts to the day?

A crop of steel, on our oath!

How the burnished stamens glance!—

Spike, and anther, and blade,

How they burst from the bloody shade,

And spindle to spear and lance!

There are tassels of blood-red maize—

How the horrible Harvest grows!

'Tis sabres that glint and daze—

'Tis bayonets all ablaze

Uprearing in dreadful rows!

For one that we buried there,

A thousand are come to air!

Ever, by door-stone and hearth,

They break from the angry earth—

And out of the crimson sand,

Where the cold white Fang was laid,

Rises a terrible Shade,

The Wraith of a sleepless Brand!

And our hearts wax strange and chill,

With an ominous shudder and thrill,

Even here, on the strong Slave-Sod,

Lest, haply, we be found

(Ah, dread no brave hath drowned!)

Fighting against Great God

And as predicted by the poem itself, by the time Brownell's verse made it to print, large numbers of freedmen had already begun joining the Union army to pick up the fight.

I don't claim to have a clear picture of what Martin is doing with these images, thus far. But is it crackpot of me to suggest, on the basis of this poem, that Jon Snow and Ghost represent a "white Fang" among the dragon's teeth sown by the Lannister/Bolton alliance? Or that the dragon's teeth, in some respect, might be the men of the Night's Watch? "Swart and stark... heavy and dark..." says Brownell, who was describing freedmen, former slaves during the American Civil War. In King's Landing, Tyrion once found dragon skulls stashed in a "dank cellar," and recalled them as: "beautiful... black as onyx... the teeth... long, curving knives of black diamond." The men of the Night's Watch are dressed in black...

"We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm?" - Qhorin Halfhand (2.43, JON)

"Many of us [will die]," the Old Bear said. "Mayhaps even all of us. But as another Lord Commander said a thousand years ago, that is why they dress us in black. Remember your words, brothers. For we are the swords in the darkness, the watchers on the walls…" (3.00, PROLOGUE, CHETT)

Or are the other dragon's teeth, "swart and stark... heavy and dark..." actually the Starks themselves... and Jon the "Hope Forlorn" to be flung "with its fellows dusky and worn... into the horrible Pit" of the Winterfell crypts? When Jon, dying, says "Ghost..." and thinks stick them with the pointy end... is that a signal that of the coming "terrible Shade / the Wraith of a sleepless Brand?"

(Just thinking out loud... and wanted to put it out there)

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure about going too far down that road, but I'd certainly agree with the suggestion Jon Snow might be considered a nameless slave; he has no name and as a member of the Foreign Legion Nights Watch, bound to service on the Wall until his death he is in effect a slave.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I'm not sure about going too far down that road, but I'd certainly agree with the suggestion Jon Snow might be considered a nameless slave; he has no name and as a member of the Foreign Legion Nights Watch, bound to service on the Wall until his death he is in effect a slave.

Well, that's really all I wanted. I just can't shake the feeling that Martin's doing something more with this stuff than what I see. It just hasn't coalesced for me yet.

[Arya Havinfun]

I'm not sure about going too far down that road, but I'd certainly agree with the suggestion Jon Snow might be considered a nameless slave; he has no name and as a member of the Foreign Legion Nights Watch, bound to service on the Wall until his death he is in effect a slave.

Nice, and it parallels what happens with Daenerys, who was sold by Viserys to the Dothraki to solve his own problems. She started out being a powerless Khaleesi, but soon became more self-directed and effective as a leader. She was able to lead her people through hell and begin to gain some prosperity, and then she started freeing slaves all over the place, whether they liked it or not. As she did so her own freedom of action got more and more constricted (”floppy ears”, endless court deliberations, an intractable insurgency, unpalatable political compromises and an attempted assassination), until her black dragon with the red eyes had to bear her off to the wilderness for a good long think…

The only disagreement I have is in calling him nameless. Jon Snow isn’t nameless, he’s a Stark bastard, perhaps THE Stark Bastard, and no one doesn’t notice him, as pointed out so well by The Snowfyre Chorus. Even when he captured Ygritte, she immediately reacted to his self-introduction as Jon Snow by saying “An evil name.”

Whether that’s because it’s the long forgotten (by people south of the Wall) name of the NK, or whether there’s something to the tale she then told about Bael the Bard creating a “Bastard o’ Winterfell” long ago is still uncertain. (And grisly: “…One o’ his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.”) [ACoK, p.562] :bawl:

[Phillip Frye]

Phillip,

the 'The World of Ice and Fire' page linked confirmed that the Kings of Winter is the more ancient usage of the royal title of House Stark.

Who can keep all of these damnable acronyms straight?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Perhaps its simpler than that; and the Nights King guarded the southern end of the portal while the white lady guarded the northern end.

Possibly. Then cue Old Nan's story and they rule both sides of the Gate together as King and Queen. A man and a woman had a little baby, yea they did and there were three in the family,

and that's a magic number.

Given that Qhorin also wanted Mormont to know that "the trees have eyes again," I'd say him and Mormont definitely knew a lot more than we, through the POV characters, know. In addition to all of the points you raised, it's also extraordinary that Mormont would have begun fast-tracking Jon Snow as a potential replacement LC. Sure, Jon's competent, but surely with all that's going on it would have been better to have a veteran, with well established relationships and a proven leadership record, as the person you're setting up as your favored replacement... unless you know something more about what's going on, and foresee a future where having a Stark LC might be vital.

:agree:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Given that Qhorin also wanted Mormont to know that "the trees have eyes again," I'd say him and Mormont definitely knew a lot more than we, through the POV characters, know. In addition to all of the points you raised, it's also extraordinary that Mormont would have begun fast-tracking Jon Snow as a potential replacement LC. Sure, Jon's competent, but surely with all that's going on it would have been better to have a veteran, with well established relationships and a proven leadership record, as the person you're setting up as your favored replacement... unless you know something more about what's going on, and foresee a future where having a Stark LC might be vital.

I see your point here, but I also think Martin / Mormont sort of paves the road for the fast-tracking with a decent explanation of the NW's sorry state to Tyrion. Mormont says something about having only 20 non-officers who can read in the entire Watch, and no one who can plan or do any thinking. Then, of course, Jon demonstrates that "his mind is as deft as his blade," when he approaches Aemon about Sam - and his fast-tracking fate was sealed.

Still, I do think it odd that everyone seems to view Jon's participation in Great Rangings and Skirling Pass Scoutings as not just "good exposure" for the young lad, but as essential and beneficial for the missions themselves. Qhorin's scouting team, in particular. And of course, the consistent facial recognition beyond-the-Wall, by wildlings, takes it to another level.

.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

So I just bought a copy of TWOIAF on my home (It has started being sold at where I live), and one of the main theories of the others suggested in the Heresy threads was suggested by a maester in the book.

[Arya Havinfun]

So I just bought a copy of TWOIAF on my home (It has started being sold at where I live), and one of the main theories of the others suggested in the Heresy threads was suggested by a maester in the book.

Oh you tease! Bad Queen Alysanne! (well, no really bad, just impish... :laugh: )

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I'm currently working on an essay comparing the books with Dr. Seuss' Cat in the Hat. I think Jon snow represents the cat and Ghost the hat.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Oh you tease! Bad Queen Alysanne! (well, no really bad, just impish... :laugh: )

:p Lots of info, loving the bits in the East aswell

[Phillip Frye]

What I love is is that if Spoiler Queen Alysanne's maester says that the little bastards become the Others, certain individuals around here will declare victory and other individuals will claim that we can't rely upon the word of a maester.

On the other hand, if Spoiler Queen Alysanne's maester says that the little bastards do not become the Others, certain individuals around here will declare victory and other individuals will claim that we can't rely upon the word of a maester.

I plan to be one of those individuals.