Heresy 138 The Kings of Winter

[wolfmaid7]

So I just bought a copy of TWOIAF on my home (It has started being sold at where I live), and one of the main theories of the others suggested in the Heresy threads was suggested by a maester in the book.

ahhhh you big tease :devil:

What I love is is that if Spoiler Queen Alysanne's maester says that the little bastards become the Others, certain individuals around here will declare victory and other individuals will claim that we can't rely upon the word of a maester.

On the other hand, if Spoiler Queen Alysanne's maester says that the little bastards do not become the Others, certain individuals around here will declare victory and other individuals will claim that we can't rely upon the word of a maester.

I plan to be one of those individuals.

hahaha ha

[Frey family reunion]

@Snowfyre thought the Brownell poem was a great find. Death and rebirth is being hinted at throughout for the Nightswatch. From the obvious like the Ravens' "corn" and "corn" "King" references to the image of the scarecrow sentinels named after lost Nightswatch brothers a few scant chapters from Arya's encounter with the Scarecrow Lord Beric Dondarrion. Even Dolorous Edd laments that the Nightswatch will probably find work for him to do after he dies.

[Black Crow]

Well, that's really all I wanted. I just can't shake the feeling that Martin's doing something more with this stuff than what I see. It just hasn't coalesced for me yet.

Yeah, like yourself it bugs me that so much of the Jon Snow and John Uskglass stuff is the same, but yet the two stories do not otherwise appear to be connected. As you said earlier there must be a common source.

[Black Crow]

What I love is is that if Spoiler Queen Alysanne's maester says that the little bastards become the Others, certain individuals around here will declare victory and other individuals will claim that we can't rely upon the word of a maester.

On the other hand, if Spoiler Queen Alysanne's maester says that the little bastards do not become the Others, certain individuals around here will declare victory and other individuals will claim that we can't rely upon the word of a maester.

I plan to be one of those individuals.

I too will be one of those individuals and am certainly looking forward to seeing exactly what it says about the Others. While there will still no doubt be some, like our absent friend, who will continue in their denial on those grounds this entry will nevertheless be significant in that it will be an explicit rather than an implied outcome written by GRRM.

Still, just a few days to go...

On a minor level I have to confess that whatever their origin or reputed origin one thing I'm going to be interested to see is whether Stannis' line about them being "demons of snow and ice and cold" is indeed a quotation from a book that Robert Baratheon probably never read while his cleverer younger brother almost certainly did.

[Black Crow]

@Snowfyre thought the Brownell poem was a great find. Death and rebirth is being hinted at throughout for the Nightswatch. From the obvious like the Ravens' "corn" and "corn" "King" references to the image of the scarecrow sentinels named after lost Nightswatch brothers a few scant chapters from Arya's encounter with the Scarecrow Lord Beric Dondarrion. Even Dolorous Edd laments that the Nightswatch will probably find work for him to do after he dies.

Yes, its interesting that in another place so much stress is placed on the Raven's cries of "King" whilst ignoring the qualifier which identifies Jon Snow as the corn king.

[redriver]

Yes, its interesting that in another place so much stress is placed on the Raven's cries of "King" whilst ignoring the qualifier which identifies Jon Snow as the corn king.

Not always.Sometimes it's just "king" with no qualifier.Or the qualifier is "Snow".

[Black Crow]

Not always.Sometimes it's just "king" with no qualifier.Or the qualifier is "Snow".

True, but the linkage happens often enough to be significant.

Welcome back. :cheers:

[redriver]

True, but the linkage happens often enough to be significant.

Welcome back. :cheers:

Thank you Ser. :cheers:This is probably the longest break I've taken from reading ASOIAF but needed,I think.Been reading Robin Hobb and other non-fantasy stuff,but haven't got round to Heart of Darkness yet-it's on the list.

Waiting for my copy of World.I haven't seen anything egregiously contrary to Heresy or Winter Fell? thus far in the exerpts.

[Urrax2]

...While there will still no doubt be some, like our absent friend, who will continue in their denial on those grounds this entry will nevertheless be significant in that it will be an explicit rather than an implied outcome written by GRRM....

The World Book, bear in mind, is just another POV item, from some maesters' POVs.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The World Book, bear in mind, is just another POV item, from some maesters' POVs.

Yes, and judging from some if the comments and excerpts online, it presents a very pro-Lannister slant. At least in terms of Lord Tywin and recent history.

ETA: You know, every now and then I wonder if Pycelle was a Lannister... or just what it is that gets him so excited about Tywin.

ETA2: That said, to this point there haven't been any explicit explanations offered in the text for the origin/creation of the Others... Craster's wives aside.

.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

@Snowfyre thought the Brownell poem was a great find. Death and rebirth is being hinted at throughout for the Nightswatch. From the obvious like the Ravens' "corn" and "corn" "King" references to the image of the scarecrow sentinels named after lost Nightswatch brothers a few scant chapters from Arya's encounter with the Scarecrow Lord Beric Dondarrion. Even Dolorous Edd laments that the Nightswatch will probably find work for him to do after he dies.

Thanks, FFR. I found it a month or two ago, and saved a copy somewhere... then couldn't remember where I'd put it. And frankly, I'm still not sure what to do with it in terms intertextual reading - but that's because I'm puzzled by Martin's use of the slavery/freedom theme. It's very easy to see in the Essos setting - where the issue of slavery is front and center, everywhere you look. It's much more subtle in Westeros, but crops up in some rather odd places. Craster's Keep... the Citadel... the Night's Watch... Northern history (the little we know of it).

The reason I latched onto the Brownell poem is the same issue that BC and I have batted around with respect to the Susanna Clarke character similarities - it seems to connect with images in the Snow/Stark storyline in ways that I wouldn't expect. The dragon's teeth metaphor is actually there in Martin's work - he's clearly doing something with it, and it is evidently connected with the issue of slavery. Brownell's poem is a cultural artifact that falls right into the wheelhouse of Martin's commentaries on power, war, and obedience... and is the clearest cultural / historical / poetic articulation that I've seen of this connection between dragon's teeth and slavery.

What nags at me is the fact that the poem suggests the metaphor could extend somehow to Jon Snow's role in Martin's story. (And interestingly, Susanna Clarke's work does too... see: "nameless slave.") That's eye-opening to me, because I don't know that I would have made that connection on the basis of Martin's own text. At least to this point, he has not linked Jon Snow and slavery in any explicit way... unless I'm overlooking something? So I wonder if that's an indication of the direction the story takes moving forward... or whether there's an embedded metaphor already there that could be drawn out?

[Black Crow]

The World Book, bear in mind, is just another POV item, from some maesters' POVs.

Perfectly true, I'm going to reserve judgement until I get the chance to read exactly what's in the article, but having been written by GRRM its unambiguously going to be canon

[Urrax2]

... having been written by GRRM its unambiguously going to be canon

Well, in a way, but maybe not unambiguously. He may give two different accounts by two different maesters without indicating which is right. He may have a maester make a mistake, which gets corrected in the course of the story itself. He likes red herrings, and I'll wager there is going to be a whole school of them swimming in this book.

[Black Crow]

Well, in a way, but maybe not unambiguously. He may give two different accounts by two different maesters without indicating which is right. He may have a maester make a mistake, which gets corrected in the course of the story itself. He likes red herrings, and I'll wager there is going to be a whole school of them swimming in this book.

That's one of the reasons why I'm waiting to read it for myself, but thus far as Snowfyre reminds us we have not been offered any alternative explanation either in text or SSM.

[Frey family reunion]

Thanks, FFR. I found it a month or two ago, and saved a copy somewhere... then couldn't remember where I'd put it. And frankly, I'm still not sure what to do with it in terms intertextual reading - but that's because I'm puzzled by Martin's use of the slavery/freedom theme. It's very easy to see in the Essos setting - where the issue of slavery is front and center, everywhere you look. It's much more subtle in Westeros, but crops up in some rather odd places. Craster's Keep... the Citadel... the Night's Watch... Northern history (the little we know of it).

The reason I latched onto the Brownell poem is the same issue that BC and I have batted around with respect to the Susanna Clarke character similarities - it seems to connect with images in the Snow/Stark storyline in ways that I wouldn't expect. The dragon's teeth metaphor is actually there in Martin's work - he's clearly doing something with it, and it is evidently connected with the issue of slavery. Brownell's poem is a cultural artifact that falls right into the wheelhouse of Martin's commentaries on power, war, and obedience... and is the clearest cultural / historical / poetic articulation that I've seen of this connection between dragon's teeth and slavery.

What nags at me is the fact that the poem suggests the metaphor could extend somehow to Jon Snow's role in Martin's story. (And interestingly, Susanna Clarke's work does too... see: "nameless slave.") That's eye-opening to me, because I don't know that I would have made that connection on the basis of Martin's own text. At least to this point, he has not linked Jon Snow and slavery in any explicit way... unless I'm overlooking something? So I wonder if that's an indication of the direction the story takes moving forward... or whether there's an embedded metaphor already there that could be drawn out?

It's interesting how closely the Brownell poem equates the courage to be free with sacrifice. I've always seen the dragon teeth image as a form of sacrifice. The dragon is slain, the teeth of the dragon are used to create an army.

In Dany's arc, the closest parallel to the Cadmus legend, IMO, is Dany's false sacrifice of her dragon in exchange for the Unsullied army. Interestingly enough, there doesn't seem to be much change in the Unsullied once Dany gives them their freedom. Instead it appears that they are trading in one master for another. I suppose the difference is the Unsullied are given a choice. They choose to sacrifice their freedom to join in Dany's cause

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It's interesting how closely the Brownell poem equates the courage to be free with sacrifice. I've always seen the dragon teeth image as a form of sacrifice. The dragon is slain, the teeth of the dragon are used to create an army.

In Dany's arc, the closest parallel to the Cadmus legend, IMO, is Dany's false sacrifice of her dragon in exchange for the Unsullied army. Interestingly enough, there doesn't seem to be much change in the Unsullied once Dany gives them their freedom. Instead it appears that they are trading in one master for another. I suppose the difference is the Unsullied are given a choice. They choose to sacrifice their freedom to join in Dany's cause

Yes... that transformation from slave to freedman would be an important piece. And you're right that, from an outside perspective, things don't look very different for the Unsullied once Dany frees them. Though I expect they would say different. One aspect of that transformation that stands out to me is the fact that - once free - each of the Unsullied chooses a name, and an identity that does not change day to day.

One of the first things Dany had done after the fall of Astapor was abolish the custom of giving the Unsullied new slave names every day. Most of those born free had returned to their birth names; those who still remembered them, at least. Others had called themselves after heroes or gods, and sometimes weapons, gems, and even flowers, which resulted in soldiers with some very peculiar names, to Dany's ears. Grey Worm had remained Grey Worm. when she asked him why, he said, "It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he was taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free." (3.42)

[Black Crow]

While conversely of course the Nights Watch are supposedly free men, yet they are effectively enslaved by their oath.

[Urrax2]

That's one of the reasons why I'm waiting to read it for myself, but thus far as Snowfyre reminds us we have not been offered any alternative explanation either in text or SSM.

Sorry, explanation of what? (I was dealing in general terms. not with reference to any particular issue.)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

While conversely of course the Nights Watch are supposedly free men, yet they are effectively enslaved by their oath.

Yes, though here it seems significant to point out that Jon chooses the Watch of his own free will. And not just once, but at least three times.

Once before he first takes his vows, here:

He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King's Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isles of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road… and he was here.

Once he swore his vow, the Wall would be his home until he was old as Maester Aemon. "I have not sworn yet," he muttered. He was no outlaw, bound to take the black or pay the penalty for his crimes. He had come here freely, and he might leave freely... until he said the words. He need only ride on, and he could leave it all behind. By the time the moon was full again, he would be back in Winterfell with his brothers.

Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King's Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her?

Jon Snow turned away from the kingsroad to look behind him. The fires of Castle Black were hidden behind a hill, but the Wall was there, pale beneath the moon, vast and cold, running from horizon to horizon.

He wheeled his horse around and started for home... (1.41)

A second time after his midnight ride, that failed attempt at leaving the Watch when his friends bring him back. After he returns, LC Mormont makes him reaffirm his choice, here:

"By custom, the Lord Commander's steward is his squire as well... but I do not care to wake every dawn wondering if you've run off again. So I will have an answer from you, Lord Snow, and I will have it now. Are you a brother of the Night's Watch... or only a bastard boy who wants to play at war?"

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran... forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place. "I am... yours, my lord. Your man. I swear it. I will not run again." (1.70)

And he then he makes the choice a third time, after Stannis offers him Winterfell and the Stark family name...

Actually, what I find fascinating is that the most powerful identifying moments in Jon Snow's narrative are the very moments in which he chooses namelessness - his Snow, as opposed to his Stark identity. (The opposite of what we see with the Unsullied... or, in a different way, with Ramsay Snow/Bolton.) So, when Jon tells Ned his children were meant to have the five wolf pups because the number of pups corresponds to the five trueborn Starks, and then declares that "I am no Stark." And again, later, when confronted with Stannis' offer of the Stark name and keep... when he chooses to remain on the Wall. The first time, Ghost appears after his omission of himself from House Stark. Later, it is Ghost's reappearance that decides him:

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then. (3.79)

And of course, the old gods themselves are "nameless."

With respect to these choices it is also relevant, I think, that he is choosing his home... or his place.

(ETA: Changed two choices to three. I'd forgotten about that midnight ride...)

[Black Crow]

Sorry, explanation of what? (I was dealing in general terms. not with reference to any particular issue.)

The explanation as to who the white walkers really are of course :cool4: