Jon and Dany dying, who wants it?

[Elayna_L_Lexxing2]

I believe peoples are too obsessed with that "if Jon end up Hero = fairytale/boring"

Wake up, he's already kinda the hero

And hidden behind this or that massacre/bloodbath/assassination/plot twist there are a lot of characters that benefit from narrative plot shield, they are just less obvious

Example, seeing that watching your sign it seem we are both Stannis fans... Stannis is another plot-shielded

Difference on his one is that we already know his shield have already a date writted over it, and that at some point GRRM is going to remove it

No way Stannis will end this run as the King, his whole character is about being "almost there"

Even deaths are often functional to the narrative, is not that random characters die because "lulz this is asoiaf bitch!"

Ned Stark die?

Mufasa in Disney's Lion King die too (fuck you, Scar)

Robb's death was a nice punch to the balls, but even his death is really narrative-driven

Robb was the naif idea of hope, of an easy solution against "evil"... he served the purpose to show that is not only about "i hope an hero defeat them!", because you can defeat evil in open field and still lose

Jon represent something similar but different.

Robb's war was a conflict of men. Little, vicious, tricky, traitors, backstabbing men. Good men (all good?) vs bad men(all bad?)... but still men, is not a real Good vs Evil, is just a war.

Jon's war against The Others seem going to be a more pure and narrative expression of Good vs Evil, and for that reason have him being a more pure and narraitive incarnation of "the Hero" sound coherent to me

I don't consider asoiaf characters "humans"... they are surely more mature and deep than many others, but still they are there to be leitmotifs with legs

They change, evolve, suprise... but still they only exist to serve the story

I like GRRM style, but i don't consider him the automatic negation of classic narrative pillars... if anything, he just take a (huge) deviation from it, but i can see him go toward a "classic" ending...

I believe it will end with heroes and big villains, with a final clash, with the "good guys" team winning

But i also believe being GRRMthe writer, it will have a huge price

He's trying to write his own epic/narrative/fantasy legend, i can easily see him give it an epic powerful ending using all classic tools of narrative instead go for a weaker/wierd gritty realistic one just because he MUST be "original"

My simple opinion is that peoples should stop say to GRRM what is or what should be GRRM style, and let him be GRRM :D

Agreed :)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I didn't mention suffering. Does suffering change the fact that Jon is apparently a pre-destined saviour of men? Does suffering change the fact that Dany is seen as a conqueror but can't actually fight in battle?

We don't know that she can't fight in a battle, only that she hasn't so far.

[Bisknz]

Hope Dany will die in the end

[thehandwipes]

I think Dany, Tyrion, and Jon will all die at the end of the story but I don't root for any of them to die immediately. I like all of their stories, in some places more then others, and I cant wait till they enter (or re-enter) the main story to reek havoc upon the realms of men.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Have you read this Liz?

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html

I don't think every little detail is spot on - but can you think of a better way to wrap ASoIaF up, whilst subverting Jon and Dany's monomyth arcs, at the same time?

I've read the Ragnarok theory before. And I'm not sure. I think I'll know more after I read TWOIAF and TWOW. For some reason, GRRM seems to be drawing more from historical events than mythology like Tolkien did. (Middle-earth and JRRT's stuff is directly derived from Scandinavian and Celtic legends.)

[thehandwipes]

clearly the primary source for the game of thrones is the War of the Roses, but the song of ice and fire I think is pulled primarily from ragnarok. but I agree we should know for (pretty) sure after TWOW comes out. He can only keep it hidden for so long without becoming silly and Ice and Fire storyline must start taking precedence.

[ummester]

clearly the primary source for the game of thrones is the War of the Roses, but the song of ice and fire I think is pulled primarily from ragnarok. but I agree we should know for (pretty) sure after TWOW comes out. He can only keep it hidden for so long without becoming silly and Ice and Fire storyline must start taking precedence.

Yes, I would agree.

ASoIaF seems very much like The War of the Roses framed by the Ragnarok mythology. This is why characters don't match up perfectly to either, they are written to have counterparts in both.