Jon and Dany dying, who wants it?

[Forelver]

I can see both or either one of them dying, possibly sacrificing themselves to save the world. But as for wanting it-nope, I'm one of those old fashioned people who like to have the good guys live.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Not me, but thank you for this line,

For me, Dany & Jon are legendary characters who rather than 'settle' for whatever is easy or comfortable, chose to shape and mold the world around them. Both of these characters could of shrunken into bit part players or yielded to others. Instead they give us a story and create drama. Their complexity allows their next move to become a mystery and less of a forgone conclusion. Imagine their meeting, what would it be like? It's actually difficult (and fun) to predict how one would gauge the other. The support cast enjoy a larger role than they would in another story, this is GRRM spoiling and indulging us. I agree that a characters mortality is what ultimately makes you care about them, it does not make them interesting.

Now I'm no fan of Dany. I find her both fickle and sanctimonious. But it would be massively detrimental to the story to remove her. IMO.

It's no coincidence that both Dany and Jon find themselves in great peril by the end of DwD. There are forces they do not understand working against and for them. The fact that they can survive what would kill most others is what makes it a 'story' and not a mere morbid recollection of events in a fictitious environment.

I seriously have to question whether you hare read or just 'skimmed' their chapters if thats your conclusion to both. Both characters have suffered immensely in many ways.

I didn't mention suffering. Does suffering change the fact that Jon is apparently a pre-destined saviour of men? Does suffering change the fact that Dany is seen as a conqueror but can't actually fight in battle?

[Lady Flandrensis]

I don't want it, at least for Jon. But all songs have an ending, and if they are indeed Ice and Fire, I'll assume they both die near the end.

[kimim]

If they die before the end, I would found it lame because sacrificing narrative just to subvert the tropes would be lame.

This. I trust Martin as a writer, and I trust his decisions. I doubt that he will sacrifice narrative to subvert a trope. If they die,fine. If not, fine. I just want the next two books!

[TrueOrFalse]

I don't necessarily want them to die, but I wouldn't care much if either of them did.

[PirateVergo]

into a fairytale ending?

How is incest a fairytale ending?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think they're both going to die, just for different reasons/under different circumstances. I don't want Jon to die, necessarily, but I can see the writing on the wall. No pun intended.

Dany can fall off her dragon for all I care.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I don't want it, per se. But I do very much expect it. I figure Dany dies in childbirth, and Jon dies either in battle, or by riding a dragon into the Heart of Winter to end things once and for all.

[Dolorous22]

I didn't mention suffering. Does suffering change the fact that Jon is apparently a pre-destined saviour of men? Does suffering change the fact that Dany is seen as a conqueror but can't actually fight in battle?

"Jon appears to be the prophecised saviour of every culture in the world and Dany seems to be the undefeatable conqueror who doesn't actually get her hands dirty. Thumbs down to both"

Sorry, I didn't specify. Dany doesn't get her hands dirty? That woman has been through hell, the fact she doesn't wield the sword shouldn't be important. She's no use to anyone with a sword nor has she ever been trained. I can assure you her hands are plenty dirty by the end of ADWD.

Jon appears to be prophecised? I'd argue that this prophecy has been conjured by the readers it is not stated in the story nor is it a popular belief in the story. If the accumulative speculation has waned your personal interest, fine.

[Thanos Targaryen]

I wonder how often GRRM receives bizarre e-mails and Twitters with things like "I hate so-and-so in your books so please kill them" or "kit Harrington is teh suxxor, pls massacre his face in te book too". Such is life for a mega-popular author in the internet age one supposes. It's getting more and more difficult to keep the over-excited fanboys at a safe arms length nowadays.

[Fat Mac]

I think they'll both die by the end. Tyrion too. I'm ambivalent to both characters, really, so I don't exactly wish it.

[UtherSnow]

Exactly. I'd hate a Harry Potter ending, where a few people you like die, but the 'main characters' some how cheat death and live happily ever after.

Dany,Tyrion or Jon can't all survive until the end. The Others are pretty much near to Apocalypse, and these characters shouldn't be immune to this because of prophecies and the sufferings they have endured.

Was there something wrong in the way those Harry books ended? Not when taken in context of those books and each story told. BTW, you'd also slay off such other great heroes as Flash Gordon and Doctor Who, right?

How do you make this wonderful assumption about The Others being 'pretty much near Apocalypse'? All that exists that we currently know about them are from Old Nan's Tales. Nothing has yet appeared in the books stating what's known fact about The Others. Has Jon not set Sam with that task? I thought that was one reason for sending Sam to The Citadel.

Jon and Dany aren't having 'fairy tale' storylines. They make mistakes. They rub people up the wrong way. They make decisions other people don't like. Both have been learning lessons along the way as well. How is that different from the real world?

For one, I am enjoying seeing how Jon and Dany develop. It'd be something if they did triumph considering nothing seems to be going their way right now. No doubt their roads will become more testing. I shall look forward to seeing either battle on.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I think they're both going to die, just for different reasons/under different circumstances. I don't want Jon to die, necessarily, but I can see the writing on the wall. No pun intended.

Dany can fall off her dragon for all I care.

Actually, I can see different scenarios for Jon:

• he dies while fighting the others

he survives the fight with the others but stays at the Wall afterwards

he becomes king in King's Landing and absolutely HATES it (this is the only way I can see him getting the Iron Throne which would fit with GRRMs writing stylw

he becomes regent for Rickon and goes back to Winterfell, where he is haunted by the memories of Ned, Catelyn, Arya and Robb

I honestly think, that the first two scenarios are the most likely, while the fourth one also has its charms.

ETA: I do not see him ever having children and being happy, because IMO he is the one person closest to Frodo in the Lord of the Rings and Frodo was so damaged after his journey both physically and mentally, that there was no real happy ending left for him.

[Ellfoy]

ETA: I do not see him ever having children and being happy, because IMO he is the one person closest to Frodo in the Lord of the Rings and Frodo was so damaged after his journey both physically and mentally, that there was no real happy ending left for him.

GRRM has said that Jon wasn't the Frodo of asoiaf.

[The Holy Goat]

I don't really want either of them too die (mainly Jon), but I'm kinda expecting them to. If they survive I will be pleasantly surprised, if they die I will be bummed out (mainly 'cause of Jon) but not surprised.

GRRM has said that Jon wasn't the Frodo of asoiaf.

And what a bummer that is. Imagine a tiny bloke with hairy feet, curly hair and a pipe in his mouth, riding a giant white wolf and swinging a flaming sword while battling ice demons and dead people.

[BitsOfBrains]

Am i the only person that wants these two to die? Keep ASOIAF's brutal realism rather than transform it into a fairytale ending?

Danaerys should die, her ADWD chapters prove that.

Jon is slightly leas nauseous, but he has been stabbed numerously. He should die under the medieval health care plan.

As we learnt after Ned and Robb, there are still plenty of amazing characters to continue the story, so who else wants them to die?

We need a "man on the scene" up on/beyond the wall so I want Jon to live. I am not a huge Jon fan but his supporting caste is easily my favorite in the series.

Personally I don't think the slavers bay stuff adds anything to the story, however I think Daenerys needs to complete her transformation into Mad Queen mode before she gets whacked. If she died now there would be readers who felt sorry for her. Eventually she is going to emerge from her cocoon of slavers bay. There are readers that expect this wonderful butterfly but when she is revealed as some sort of psychotic bloodthirsty invasive species of moth, THATS when I want to see her go down.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

GRRM has said that Jon wasn't the Frodo of asoiaf.

Yes. If anything Jon's the Aragorn and Bran's the Frodo, insofar as there are LotR parallels.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Jon and Dany dying, at this time, is just as unrealistic as them not dying.

Many characters have died - you would expect, in any conflict era, that some will make it all the way through. Some POVs from book 1 should exist in the last book.

Killing them won't make their characters consistent with the rest of the universe, that is not the issue. The issue is they have been obviously portrayed as the stories primary monomyths (in both the book and the show) from the very beginning.

So the best way to subvert them is not to kill them but subvert what being the monomyth in this tale means. get them to the end and then do things with them we haven't seen before or don't expect.

:agree: Yes, I think so. Killing them is easy. Marrying them and having them ascend the IT together is easy. Having them do neither of these things is what's hard, and if pulled off, would make GRRM the best fantasy writer of our time.

Yes. If anything Jon's the Aragorn and Bran's the Frodo, insofar as there are LotR parallels.

:bowdown: Great call.

[Ellfoy]

Yes. If anything Jon's the Aragorn and Bran's the Frodo, insofar as there are LotR parallels.

:agree: :cheers:

[ummester]

:agree: Yes, I think so. Killing them is easy. Marrying them and having them ascend the IT together is easy. Having them do neither of these things is what's hard, and if pulled off, would make GRRM the best fantasy writer of our time.

Have you read this Liz?

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html

I don't think every little detail is spot on - but can you think of a better way to wrap ASoIaF up, whilst subverting Jon and Dany's monomyth arcs, at the same time?