Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 So breaking guest right is no big deal? No guest right was broken, I didn't read anything about Daeron eating bread and salt and given the status of guest in Dorne. This isn't like the Freys where Robb and Cat never came to them an enemy and were slaughtered anyway (which is why I despise the Freys, Robb and Cat never did anything bad to them and just wanted their help, they never forced the Freys to do anything), this was their mortal enemy. Then gut him on the road or battle, this was a act of oathbreaking in a great way. And we all know oaths never get broken. Which is why everyone in the Reach and Riverlands follow House Tyrell and Tully respectively as a unified front in EVERY war and why nobody ever raises arms against a king....oh wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Knightmare Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 How is what the Dornish done any different to Manderley? The Freys came to him under peace terms, he had them slaughtered and baked in pies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 How is what the Dornish done any different to Manderley? The Freys came to him under peace terms, he had them slaughtered and baked in pies. Manderly didn't slaughter them while they were under his roof, technically he never broke guest right, he killed them outside his castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Knightmare Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Manderly didn't slaughter them while they were under his roof, technically he never broke guest right, he killed them outside his castle. I never said he killed them under guest right, the Dornish didn't kill Dearon under guest right either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I never said he killed them under guest right, the Dornish didn't kill Dearon under guest right either My mistake. Still murder can still be commited outside of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Knightmare Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 My mistake. Still murder can still be commited outside of war. I have no problem with the Dornish using any tactic to defeat an invading army. And it was originally the smallfolk that rebelled after Dearon's conquest. The hostages were enough to originally stop the nobles from rebelling, only joined after smallfolk rebelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I have no problem with the Dornish using any tactic to defeat an invading army. And it was originally the smallfolk that rebelled after Dearon's conquest. The hostages were enough to originally stop the nobles from rebelling, only joined after smallfolk rebelled. With the murder outside of war I actually meant what Manderly did to the Freys. I honestly don't see how the IT could have ever held Dorne by force, the laws of the NOrth were not that different from the Andal ones, but the laws of Dorne were completely different from the rest, which is probably why Daeron II allowed Dorne to keep all it's laws and autonomy, he knew nothing would stop Dorne from keeping it's customs and the way of life they were so proud of even if it meant breaking every law under the sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Knightmare Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 I don't have a problem with Manderly taking vengence, don't have a problem with Tywin orchestrating the red wedding (they were enemies), I have a problem with Bolton's and Frey's turning on their allies at a wedding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I don't have a problem with Manderly taking vengence, don't have a problem with Tywin orchestrating the red wedding (they were enemies), I have a problem with Bolton's and Frey's turning on their allies at a wedding 100% agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naseridrl Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 With the murder outside of war I actually meant what Manderly did to the Freys. I honestly don't see how the IT could have ever held Dorne by force, the laws of the NOrth were not that different from the Andal ones, but the laws of Dorne were completely different from the rest, which is probably why Daeron II allowed Dorne to keep all it's laws and autonomy, he knew nothing would stop Dorne from keeping it's customs and the way of life they were so proud of even if it meant breaking every law under the sun. I think living close quarters with someone Dornish (his wife) maybe helped him gain an understanding of how best to deal with the situation and what were the things they held most dear of their customs and ways and what would they feel okay about and what would he need to let them keep. The Andals and First Men although different are similar the Rhoynar were quite different from them though so it stands to reason the people and state they left behind would be different. Add to that the next ruler of the IT were going to be half Dornish, which is a lot more than can be said for most of the other leading houses. It works as a good inducement and it also stops the violence and allows them to enter in a way where they can feel like winners and willing members and not loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think living close quarters with a someone Dornish (his wife) maybe helped him gain an understanding of how best to deal with the situation and what were the things they held most dear o their customs and ways and what would they feel okay about and hat would he need to let them keep. The Andals and First Men although different are similar the Rhoynar were quite different from them though so it stands to reason the people and state they left behind would be different. Add to that the next ruler of the IT were going to be half Dornish, which is a lot more than can be said for most of the other leading houses. It works as a good inducement and it also stops the violence and allows them to enter in a way where they can feel like winners and willing members and not loser. You're right, I forgot about the fact that Daeron married a DOrnish woman long before he became king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Then gut him on the road or battle, this was a act of oathbreaking in a great way. Their words became nothing, the SK had no reason to trust their word or make terms ever again. So f@@@ what? They attacked their home, let them take what is given. You cannot attack someone's house and expect them to care about you or keep any kind of "promise". There isn't one. Saying that someone have to respect the people who came to kill and enslave someone's country and family is at least plain stupidity imnsho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 ^Yeah like I know a common attitude is people wouldn't go overseas to war but once our country is invaded it'll be no holds barred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 So f@@@ what? They attacked their home, let them take what is given. You cannot attack someone's house and expect them to care about you or keep any kind of "promise". There isn't one. Saying that someone have to respect the people who came to kill and enslave someone's country and family is at least plain stupidity imnsho. Exactly BTW, no Death av? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Exactly BTW, no Death av? You know her! :bowdown: Only you and Danelle knew who she was! Better now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 You know her! :bowdown: Only you and Danelle knew who she was! Better now? Damn straight, Perky Goth girls FTW!!! http://www.k1levelposters.net/forums/images/smilies/RogerFedererRaisedArmsYesUSOpen.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Damn straight, Perky Goth girls FTW!!! http://www.k1levelposters.net/forums/images/smilies/RogerFedererRaisedArmsYesUSOpen.gif :cheers: ^Yeah like I know a common attitude is people wouldn't go overseas to war but once our country is invaded it'll be no holds barred. Not what I am saying at all. There is no provocation and someone for his own selfish reasons attacks you and try to murder you and your people and enslave you. Is there anyone who would stop at anything in order to protect his-her people? Lets not delude ourselves, when it comes to protecting our own there is nothing that we wouldn't do. As for that "rights" bs is just that; bs. You do your worst/best to give an example for everyone wannabe attacker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naseridrl Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 You're right, I forgot about the fact that Daeron married a DOrnish woman long before he became king. I think its easy to overlook the kind of impact that might have actually had on his views and subsequent relations with Dorne. Before that marriage Dorne was the enemy who'd killed his family members and also the army of his family. But then he's married to one of those people and he probably starts to view them differently because he starts to get to know one in a real way. Not a hostage who's there to get their family to play nice but someone who's his wife an who he needs to get on with and someone who he does appear to have fallen in over with. He would have learn about the real Dorne from her not the tales told and the brutality of a people at war. When he later becomes king he has a better understanding of Dorne and also has the promise for the Dornish that the next king will be of their blood. Also having his wife be sister of the prince probably helped in the negotiations. Also she'd be able to tell her people that maybe the enemy isn't as bad as they thought either. Daeron learnt about Dorne but Myriah also learnt about the rest of Westeros and the Targs so she'd have been able to help smooth the way as well. I think when he became king these things helped him make better choices about Dorne. Also if Dorne had been in the Targ's Seven Kingdoms from the start there is no way to know if they'd have been able to keep their laws after Aegon because under another (King Jaehaerys maybe, can't remember) the laws were made the same across the land. Coming in later gave them more control over their own land and destiny and let them keep their customs and title as princes. Although I do think it helped they'd never claimed kingship, letting someone keep calling themselves a prince is easier than all those others Aegon had to deal with claiming to be kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think its easy to overlook the kind of impact that might have actually had on his views and subsequent relations with Dorne. Before that marriage Dorne was the enemy who'd killed his family members and also the army of his family. But then he's married to one of those people and he probably starts to view them differently because he starts to get to know one in a real way. Not a hostage who's there to get their family to play nice but someone who's his wife an who he needs to get on with and someone who he does appear to have fallen in over with. He would have learn about the real Dorne from her not the tales told and the brutality of a people at war. When he later becomes king he has a better understanding of Dorne and also has the promise for the Dornish that the next king will be of their blood. Also having his wife be sister of the prince probably helped in the negotiations. Also she'd be able to tell her people that maybe the enemy isn't as bad as they thought either. Daeron learnt about Dorne but Myriah also learnt about the rest of Westeros and the Targs so she'd have been able to help smooth the way as well. I think when he became king these things helped him make better choices about Dorne. Also if Dorne had been in the Targ's Seven Kingdoms from the start there is no way to know if they'd have been able to keep their laws after Aegon because under another (King Jaehaerys maybe, can't remember) the laws were made the same across the land. Coming in later gave them more control over their own land and destiny and let them keep their customs and title as princes. Although I do think it helped they'd never claimed kingship, letting someone keep calling themselves a prince is easier than all those others Aegon had to deal with claiming to be kings. :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Volton Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Any sort of info on riverlander houses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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