[TWOIAF Spoilers] Discussions of TWOIAF

[naseridrl]

Visenya is amazing. I loved how he cut Aegon's face. I would have paid anything to see his "wtf, bitch, what's your problem?!" face, only to say later "ok, you're right".

The more I read about Visenya I wish the Targs had ruled like Mors and Nymeria in Dorne co-rulers That way when Aegon died, Visenya could have carried on as queen. That would have been seriously amazing.

[Red Tiger]

Tywin seemed like a way different man to me, he put up with so much shit from Aerys and seemed to solve most problems with diplomacy instead of violence. I can't believe he didn't just storm Duskendale with the intent of getting his douchebag king killed so they could crown Rhaegar.

Im sad he didn't, I thought Aerys just became dogshit as a person AFTER Duskendale, but he was a useless lazy ruler even before that.

So the Martell words are not really accurate - The did bend and swear fealty to Daeron. They just broke their oath as soon as his back was turned (Not to mention the false peace banner). I ended up not really liking Dorne in this book.

War is war, m'lord

[Mithras]

I think had Visenya lived longer, she would have killed Maegor too.

[Wmarshal]

I think had Visenya lived longer, she would have killed Maegor too.

I doubt that greatly, she loved her little monster.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Confirmation that the Hollow Hill of the brotherhood is a Children construction. King Durran the whatever found the Children in Hollow Hills to make an alliance to defeat the Andals. Storm's End is even more of a mystery now, so advanced that the Maesters don't think the First Men could have built it but they make no mention of the magic, likely they don't know about it. We must be thinking the Children built it with the First Men but also they state it cannot be compared with Winterfell because of damage to Winterfell. But then he does put down the Wall as 'just a wall'. Sensing Andal bias and ignorance?

And oh yes, getting Gendry vibes from Orys, Gendry being a less despicable Orys. No one dared question his elevation because of his battle history. Blue eyes definitely Durrandon as Orys had 'black' eyes, but Orys did have Black hair strangely enough, still thinking the unbeatable black hair gene comes from Argillac's 'famous' black hair until told otherwise.

[Wmarshal]

Im sad he didn't, I thought Aerys just became dogshit as a person AFTER Duskendale, but he was a useless lazy ruler even before that.

War is war, m'lord

War is war, but peace is peace.

[Red Tiger]

War is war, but peace is peace.

There's peace and there's subjugation

If Robb cowed The Freys like this and the Freys murdered him afterwards I wouldn't blame them either

[Wmarshal]

There's peace and there's subjugation

If Robb cowed The Freys like this and the Freys murdered him afterwards I wouldn't blame them either

I would have respected them if they took him out while in a march, they promised to surrender and end the conflict but betrayed Daeron and killed his men.

If not for Baelor's great forgiveness, the SK would have rained hell on them.

[Red Tiger]

I would have respected them if they took him out while in a march, they promised to surrender and end the conflict but betrayed Daeron and killed his men.

It's a promise you make to a guy who's invaded your country and raised all types of hell in it, after his ancestor invaded it twice before. Now you're suppposed to bow down to him, kiss his ass and accept his reforms, while your own personal customs are nothing like those of the rest of Westeros.

Sounds like a hard sell to me.

[naseridrl]

Confirmation that the Hollow Hill of the brotherhood is a Children construction. King Durran the whatever found the Children in Hollow Hills to make an alliance to defeat the Andals. Storm's End is even more of a mystery now, so advanced that the Maesters don't think the First Men could have built it but they make no mention of the magic, likely they don't know about it. We must be thinking the Children built it with the First Men but also they state it cannot be compared with Winterfell because of damage to Winterfell. But then he does put down the Wall as 'just a wall'. Sensing Andal bias and ignorance?

And oh yes, getting Gendry vibes from Orys, Gendry being a less despicable Orys. No one dared question his elevation because of his battle history. Blue eyes definitely Durrandon as Orys had 'black' eyes, but Orys did have Black hair strangely enough, still thinking the unbeatable black hair gene comes from Argillac's 'famous' black hair until told otherwise.

I'm surprised that there isn't a legend of Elenei helping Durran build Storm's End. She was a goddess who was being bossed about by dad you'd think that might annoy a lady after a while. Especially as she saw Durran trying so hard maybe she gave him a bit of advice. Im surprised there isn't a legend about that or is it too much for sexist Westeros that she might have helped her lover foil her parents? Or might a legend like that give other ladies ideas about being active participants in their lives?

[Wmarshal]

It's a promise you make to a guy who's invaded your country and raised all types of hell in it, after his ancestor invaded it twice before. Now you're suppposed to bow down to him, kiss his ass and accept his reforms, while your own personal customs are nothing like those of the rest of Westeros.

Sounds like a hard sell to me.

Then don't promise it, just gut him on the road or something. This was an incredible betrayal. They would have faced more hell and fire if not for Baelor for this.

[Elessar]

Not a huge fan of how the Maester fawns so hard over Tywin (helped along by Pycelle, no doubt) just gives the "Tywin wasn't such a bad guy" crowd more to crow about. Nevermind that we know it was written this was deliberately, they'll conveniently ignore that fact no doubt.

[Red Tiger]

Then don't promise it, just gut him on the road or something. This was an incredible betrayal. They would have faced more hell and fire if not for Baelor for this.

I don't get it, I just don't. You make a promise to your enemy and then break that promise, I do NOT understand why 'treachery' in this case is so bad. Yes they 'swore fealty' to him, that's because he forced them to, just because the rest of Westeros, that once again, has a very different set of norms and values, decides to go with it does not mean Dorne will. If he had read about Aegon's second invasion of Dorne he would have known there was no way to take Dorne except through diplomacy.

[tze]

I know that the further east you go, the information becomes more like tales rather than reliable reports, but the Ibbenese visit Westeros often, and they should be well-known around there...is it true that they can't interbreed with other human races? I never got the impression that they were a separate species while reading the books, just hairy sailors...

Brown Ben Plumm claims to have a part-Ibbenese grandmother:

“Did your grandmother claim she’d actually seen this prodigy?”

“That the old crone never did. She was half-Ibbenese and half-Qohorik, never been to Westeros, my grandfather must have told her.

Either he's lying (or wrong) about his grandmother's racial background, or this is pretty clear evidence that the maesters have some BS info here.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

As I read I'm coming to the conclusion that if the Maester says it cannot possibly be true, it probably is. Greenseers can't see through the trees, there are no such things as skinchangers erm...And things that don't need saying probably do need saying.

[Ser Lepus]

I think a big change has been made: In the Tales of Dunk and Egg it is said that Maekar hated Bloodraven because Aerys I chose him as Hand over Maekar, and GRRM implied that Maekar was the one who imprisioned Brynden, and that Egg sent him to the Wall.

But now we are told that Maekar made Bloodraven his Hand and that it was Egg who imprisioned him.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think a big change has been made: In the Tales of Dunk and Egg it is said that Maekar hated Bloodraven because Aerys I chose him as Hand over Maekar, and GRRM implied that Maekar was the one who imprisioned Brynden, and that Egg sent him to the Wall.

But now we are told that Maekar made Bloodraven his Hand and that it was Egg who imprisioned him.

quote?

[BionicBarry231]

The facts on House Dayne and the tradition of the Sword of the Morning is super cool. Makes me wonder how the ceremony/selection process is done. The text reads "The wielder of Dawn is always given the title The Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it."

Would make for a cool winds prologue or Hotah chapter to highlight the reveal of the next SotM after the resolution of High Hermitage. I would guess after the five year gap that little Ned may be able to make it back from the riverlands by then (hopes and dreams). I mean Beric is dead for sure now, I think..

Also makes me wonder about the dynamic between the Daynes of Starfall vs Daynes of High Hermitage, was hoping for more Dornish history in that regard. It could have shed light on the coming events/reception of the Obara, Hotah and Swann hunting party.

The only relevant piece I grabbed was that Nymeria sent one of the Daynes in golden fetters to the wall. Vorian of House Dayne, Sword of the Evening, Renowned as the finest knight in all of Dorne."

After that they were quickly asserted into Sunspear's influence and fought alongside the Martels against the Yronwoods.

Doesnt seem like the best place for Darkstar to run if the Daynes are a loyal house to their Prince. Does create a nice little (rogue? badass?) parallel between Darkstar "I am of the night" and this Vorian "Sword of the Evening".

[Elessar]

No need for a quote, it's right there in the "Aegon V" story.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

No need for a quote, it's right there in the "Aegon V" story.

No, I meant this part of the post

I think a big change has been made: In the Tales of Dunk and Egg it is said that Maekar hated Bloodraven because Aerys I chose him as Hand over Maekar, and GRRM implied that Maekar was the one who imprisioned Brynden, and that Egg sent him to the Wall.

But now we are told that Maekar made Bloodraven his Hand and that it was Egg who imprisioned him.

In D&E, it is only stated that Maekar was upset that he wasn't chosen as Hand, and Bloodraven was. It isn't stated that Maekar hated Bloodraven, and I can't recall an imply from GRRM in D&E that Maekar had imprisoned Bloodraven.