[TWOIAF Spoilers] Discussions of TWOIAF

[Ser Lepus]

Heh...poor Olenna says that she refused to marry a Targayren prince, but the truth is that he refused her because he was gay...And her husband married her because his own Targayren bride-to-be dumped him.

quote?

It's all in Aegon V's chapter. Bloodraven was Maekar's Hand, and Egg was the one who caged him.

No, I meant this part of the post

In D&E, it is only stated that Maekar was upset that he wasn't chosen as Hand, and Bloodraven was. It isn't stated that Maekar hated Bloodraven, and I can't recall an imply from GRRM in D&E that Maekar had imprisoned Bloodraven.

It's somewhere in So Spake Martin.

I don't get it, I just don't. You make a promise to your enemy and then break that promise, I do NOT understand why 'treachery' in this case is so bad. Yes they 'swore fealty' to him, that's because he forced them to, just because the rest of Westeros, that once again, has a very different set of norms and values, decides to go with it does not mean Dorne will. If he had read about Aegon's second invasion of Dorne he would have known there was no way to take Dorne except through diplomacy.

If you break that kind of promises, how can you expect to be believed next time? And if nobody believes his enemies will keep their word, how can you make a lasting peace?

[naseridrl]

Heh...poor Olenna says that she refused to marry a Targayren prince, but the truth is that he refused her because he was gay...And her husband married her because his own Targayren bride-to-be dumped him.

Olenna may not have wanted to marry him either. It's not like Maester is going to c are what she wanted if the prince didn't want to marry her either. Although it is funny that the two people who were going to marry Targs ended up together. Especially as now that family is in bed with every royal they can get their hands on.

[Perfidious Algernon]

A couple things I've found interesting so far:

Valyria tried to build in the Reach, and left in a hurry almost as soon as it got there. Tell me more please.

The Starks are intermarried with the line of a Warg King. Interesting.

...and not that I think this is going to be too relevant, but I thought the whole history of the Iron Islands was fascinating, particularly the political unification process.

[Red Tiger]

If you break that kind of promises, how can you expect to be believed next time? And if nobody believes his enemies will keep their word, how can you make a lasting peace?

There's a difference between going to another country and diplomatically working for peace and subjugating a country into submissiveness

[Wmarshal]

There's a difference between going to another country and diplomatically working for peace and subjugating a country into submissiveness

There is a difference between fighting a attacker and gutting a man down after promising to sue peace. It was close to a full on slaughter.

[Colonel Green]

Olenna may not have wanted to marry him either.

I rather doubt she didn't want to marry into the royal family, with a non-zero chance of becoming queen.

There's a difference between going to another country and diplomatically working for peace and subjugating a country into submissiveness

As far as the Dornish conduct of the war goes, rebelling after initially surrendering is no big deal. That's a regular occurrence in Westeros.

The violation of the peace banner, on the other hand, is a gross violation of the laws of war. It's quite remarkable that Baelor forgave that.

[Mithras]

Polygamy and thralldom were common practices among the First Men. Who knew.

[Ingelheim]

I rather doubt she didn't want to marry into the royal family, with a non-zero chance of becoming queen.

As far as the Dornish conduct of the war goes, rebelling after initially surrendering is no big deal. That's a regular occurrence in Westeros.

The violation of the peace banner, on the other hand, is a gross violation of the laws of war. It's quite remarkable that Baelor forgave that.

Yep. I would have never guessed that from the Dornishmen, to be honest.

[Ser Lepus]

A couple things I've found interesting so far:

Valyria tried to build in the Reach, and left in a hurry almost as soon as it got there. Tell me more please.

The Maesters aren't sure that the Valyrians built the foundations of the Hightower. It's said that its style is to sober and simple to be Valyrian, and that maybe it's the work of an even older culture. It's also said that its style is similar to that of the Seastone Chair, and that Maester Theron claimed that an old race, the "Deep Ones" built them.

I guess it's in line with the Chulthian kraken sigil and the lovecraftian name Dagon, I guess.

[Minsc]

There is a difference between fighting a attacker and gutting a man down after promising to sue peace. It was close to a full on slaughter.

I agree from what I have heard both Dorne's actions and BR's actions to Aenys Blackfyre come dangerous close to Frey/Tywin levels in my opinion.

[Ser Lepus]

Polygamy and thralldom were common practices among the First Men. Who knew.

Yes, and the Andals kept slaves until the Valyrians themselves arrived to make them into slaves...and from that point they decided that slavery was bad...

What I find most interesting is the fact that most of the Seven Kingdoms are at least 50% First Men, with the Reach people being mostly First Men with a dash of Andal blood (from the nobles the Gardener kings invited as allies).

If the blood of the First Men were the requirement to be a greenseer/skinchanger, then anybody could be so. I guess the real requirement is worship of the Heart Trees.

[Red Tiger]

There is a difference between fighting a attacker and gutting a man down after promising to sue peace. It was close to a full on slaughter.

Yeah it was, it was really terrible.

The violation of the peace banner, on the other hand, is a gross violation of the laws of war.

Yeah, I will never take this seriously

[Wmarshal]

Yeah it was, it was really terrible.

Yeah, I will never take this seriously

I meant for the Dornish,if Baelor wasn't Baelor, it would have been a rain storm of SK men.

In wars there are some codes of conduct, if the Targaryens can't trust a word they say, why make peace at all? Why not just kill every noble they find.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I meant for the Dornish,if Baelor wasn't Baelor, it would have been a rain storm of SK men.

In wars there are some codes of conduct, if the Targaryens can't trust a word they say, why make peace at all? Why not just kill every noble they find.

It's what happened with BR and Egg.

[Red Tiger]

I meant for the Dornish,if Baelor wasn't Baelor, it would have been a rain storm of SK men.

In wars there are some codes of conduct, if the Targaryens can't trust a word they say, why make peace at all? Why not just kill every noble they find.

Look, if you approach a person with diplomacy and not violence, then that person has no real reason to keep hard feelings.

But Daeron I on the other hand first invaded, made live miserable for the Dornish and THEN demanded their surrender. The Dornish commited treachery out of vengeance for the hardships they endured because of the Targs invading them.

When Baelor came to them peacefully, never raising up arms and negotiating with them, it was a completely different story, why in the world would you hold negative feelings against someone like that? He hasn't done anything to your country.

Now we can say 'they broke the laws of war', but codes of conduct get shattered in real life all the time when bitterness, anger and worst of all fear run too deep.

[Ser Lepus]

Interesting: Maester Yandel says that the wildlings worship the gods of the woods (the First Men's Old Gods), subterranean gods under the Frostfangs (the Children of the Forest in their caves?), gods of ice and snow in the Frozen Shore (the Others?) and...Crab Gods in Storrold's Point! (the things attacking Cotter Pyke's fleet, maybe?).

[Mithras]

The root of the practice of polygamy among the First Men is probably related to the shattering of the arms. After that, the influx of people to Westeros stopped. So, they had to reproduce at great efficiency.

[Ser Lepus]

Do you think that the dragon-owning fire witch who created the tradition of proving their bravery burning themselves among the Burned Men could be Nettles?

[Jaak]

The root of the practice of polygamy among the First Men is probably related to the shattering of the arms. After that, the influx of people to Westeros stopped. So, they had to reproduce at great efficiency.

Polygamy is generally less efficient than monogamy.

[cgf]

There is a difference between fighting a attacker and gutting a man down after promising to sue peace. It was close to a full on slaughter.

Many civilizations have only survived to this day by simultaneously conceding to vastly superior powers and forcing them out through brutal guerrilla warfare. That's what a bunch of people are rooting for in all of the northern conspiracies. The Dornish just don't fuck around because they can't afford to do that again. They were already chased out of essos by the massive destruction of the dragons who slaughtered their men horrifically, and barbarically tortured their leader as he was forced to accompany their devastation, having to watch from a cage. Why should they be expected to risk extinction at the hands of this monsters again? Just to avoid seeming sneaky and untrustworthy?

That would be dumb, better to have anti-semites suspecting jews of being behind every conspiracy ever tinfoiled into existence than to have had that side of my ancestry wiped out entirely. Plus that kind of mythology can be a useful weapon in and of itself for a harassed population who've been driven half way around the globe by vicious monsters once before, and is now self-isolated in harsh lands with no great weapon of their own. It works like the 50,000 Spears of Dorne myth.

If you're just trying to get your people to finally stop being fucked with, some rumors of vicious savagery and immense power can work wonders if you've got great big mountains to hide behind and a murderous desert between those mountains and the more populated areas.