A True Timeline

[joluoto2]

We can state with certainty, however , that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions , make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

This changes many things. When did this happen? When did maesters live with CotF? Bloodraven said that the maesters learned ravencraft from the CotF and the ravens of old could speak the words.

These are probably pre- Andal Maesters, i.e. First Men. We don't know much of the Maester in Pre- Andal society since the only writing existing were runes. The role of the Maester most likely changed alot when the Andals came and they embraced written language.

[Mithras]

These are probably pre- Andal Maesters, i.e. First Men. We don't know much of the Maester in Pre- Andal society since the only writing existing were runes. The role of the Maester most likely changed alot when the Andals came and they embraced written language.

It also destroys the notion that Valyrians out of a sudden became an almighty empire 5000 years ago and they destroyed Ghiscari empire. I think Valyrian empire dates back well before the Long Night though I would say that it was only 6000 years ago they created the first dragons. Perhaps that is why the Andals started to flee Essos.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

We can state with certainty, however , that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions , make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

This changes many things. When did this happen? When did maesters live with CotF? Bloodraven said that the maesters learned ravencraft from the CotF and the ravens of old could speak the words.

In the Dawn Age, Valyria didn't even look like existing, and the Ghiscari were only beginning to exist, I doubt they would be travelling such distances and trading. The First Men came after the Elder Races, but were still before the Ghiscari and Valyrians, so I think that is false. Oldtown exists due to that fort of black stone (merlings?), and First Men had settled around it. Valyrians may have been around, but not Valyria.

Prince Peremore Hightower founded the Citadel (sort of) so I guess he was a First Man, so that would mean that the Children were still around, this we know since a Gardener king tried to source them to fight against the Andals.

The First Men shattered the Children and Giants, but the Andals finished the job.

[joluoto2]

It also destroys the notion that Valyrians out of a sudden became an almighty empire 5000 years ago and they destroyed Ghiscari empire. I think Valyrian empire dates back well before the Long Night though I would say that it was only 6000 years ago they created the first dragons. Perhaps that is why the Andals started to flee Essos.

Not really no. Valyrians have not been mentioned as existing before the dragons. And it makes sense for the Valyrians to rise quickly once they had dragons.

If the Valyrians date back before the Long Night so would their history and legends. Since Valyrian history really begin with dragons, one can assume the rise of the Freehold began with the Valyrians taming dragons.

[Mithras]

Not really no. Valyrians have not been mentioned as existing before the dragons. And it makes sense for the Valyrians to rise quickly once they had dragons.

If the Valyrians date back before the Long Night so would their history and legends. Since Valyrian history really begin with dragons, one can assume the rise of the Freehold began with the Valyrians taming dragons.

Mighty dragons that the Valyrians needed to conquer Ghiscari shoud be 200 year old beasts. I guess, they were not able to raise their first generation dragons to 200 years old age. Besides, it takes dragonriding practice to use those dragons effectively. That is why we should think that Valyrians started breeding dragons much before (at least a thousand year) than the time they defeated the Ghiscari (which was 5000 years ago).

ETA: And the Valyrians existed as people much before they trained dragons.

[joluoto2]

Mighty dragons that the Valyrians needed to conquer Ghiscari shoud be 200 year old beasts. I guess, they were not able to raise their first generation dragons to 200 years old age. Besides, it takes dragonriding practice to use those dragons effectively. That is why we should think that Valyrians started breeding dragons much before (at least a thousand year) than the time they defeated the Ghiscari (which was 5000 years ago).

ETA: And the Valyrians existed as people much before they trained dragons.

Valyrians existed as a people, probably. But in their own stories they were just poor shepherds, so that's probably how it was. And yes, naturally they need to have been breeding dragons for a long time before their many Ghiscari wars, and we learned from TWOIAF that they fought the Ghiscaris several times, so they probably didn't had that many dragons the first few rounds, since the Ghiscaris survived.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

And it would seem that the Asshai'i also tamed or created dragons, which would make it easier for the Valyrians too, if perhaps they learnt it from the Asshai'i.

That theory has been kicking around.

[joluoto2]

And it would seem that the Asshai'i also tamed or created dragons, which would make it easier for the Valyrians too, if perhaps they learnt it from the Asshai'i.

That theory has been kicking around.

I would be careful about assumptions about Asshai. I take everything I hear about Asshai with a huge grain of salt. Westerosi Maesters just don't have good or accurate sources or accounts about Asshai. And the Asshai'i seem to be a mysterious bunch, who probably won't mind misinformation being spread.

[Free Northman Reborn]

To the Andals Valyria respresents ancient history. Since the Andal arrival in Westeros is now likely to date to no more than 3000 years ago, with maybe many centuries after their first arrival in the Vale, before they spread all they way to Oldtown, it is very plausible that Valyrian ships visited Westeros in pre-Andal times. If Valyrians traded with Oldtown 4500 years ago, that is about 2000 years before the Andals reached Oldtown. So they would be quite justified to say that Valyrians visited Oldtown during the Age of Heroes.

This is because the Age of Heroes represents all of history prior to the arrival of writing in an area, going back to the Dawn Age. So just because the Valyrians visited Oldtown during the Age of Heroes - and therefore long before the Andals arrived there - does not mean that Valyria is older than 5000 years.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I would be careful about assumptions about Asshai. I take everything I hear about Asshai with a huge grain of salt. Westerosi Maesters just don't have good or accurate sources or accounts about Asshai. And the Asshai'i seem to be a mysterious bunch, who probably won't mind misinformation being spread.

Hrmm true, they would definitely pull a Dorne on us.

But does "by the Shadow" not sound suspiciously similar to "Long Night"?

Off topic anyway.

[SeanF]

I would be careful about assumptions about Asshai. I take everything I hear about Asshai with a huge grain of salt. Westerosi Maesters just don't have good or accurate sources or accounts about Asshai. And the Asshai'i seem to be a mysterious bunch, who probably won't mind misinformation being spread.

Archmaester Marwyn has studied in Asshai, so we can assume that Yandel's account is fairly accurate.

[The Dragon Demands]

Problem regarding the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms:

THE STORMLANDS

[The Andals invaded and eventually intermingled with the First Men of the Stormlands, and the Children of the Forest were forgotten]

House Durrandon reached its greatest heights in

the epoch that followed. During the Age of the Hundred

Kingdoms, King Arlan I (the Avenger) swept all before

him, extending the borders of his kingdom as far as the

Blackwater Rush and the headwaters of the Mander. His

great-grandson King Arlan III crossed both the Blackwater

and the Trident and claimed the riverlands in their entirety,

at one point planting his crowned stag banner on the shores

of the Sunset Sea.

This would seem to indicate that the "Age of the Hundred Kingdoms" lasted almost until the Targaryen Conquest itself.

Or at least, up until about 300+ years before, when the other kingdoms had finished consolidating.

Then again, of the four major kingdoms on the Proto-Reach, there were 1 - "The Reach" proper, the northern half along the Mander, ruled by House Gardener, 2 - Oldtown to the headwaters of the Honeywine, southern half, ruled by House Hightower, 3 - the western marches, "from Horn Hill to Nightsong", 4 - the Arbor.

....yet....the section on "Oldtown" states that Garland II Gardener won the Oldtown kingdom through marriage-alliance, AND that it was the LAST of the three other kingdoms to be united under Highgarden. AND the section on "The Reach" establishes fairly clearly that Garland II Gardener lived BEFORE the Andal invasion!

So we've got an "Age of the Hundred Kingdoms" (though stated to not literally be that many).....which extended all the way to the Targaryen Conquest?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ok s the Age of 100 Kingdoms is most certainly a First men thing. There isn't evidence for it to have been an Andal thing. So we have probably 10 kings in the Westerlands (Reyne, Farman, Lannister, Westerling, Banefort) and ten in the riverlands, 10 in the Vale (Royce, Shett, Brigthstine, Shell), 5-10 in the stormlands (Durrandon, Evenstar, Massey), 5 odd in Dorne (Dayne, Fowler, Yronwood, Brownhill, Dryland), 4 in the Reach (Hightower, Gardener, Redwyne and whoever is King of western marches (Tarly, Peake, Caron?) and 20 or so in the North. All of which are FM houses. As for Andals, the Arryns become the only kings in the Vale so that kills pretty much everything, same for the Reach, as the Gardeners consolidate, in the North the Starks have also united their realm. So that's 3/5 of Westeros ruled by three kings, which isn't exactly age of a hundred kingdoms material. Houses seem like a construct after the Long Night during the Age of Heroes, since these heroes created houses, after the heroes came the age of houses, and after houses came kingdoms. So indeed an inconsistency, since I doubt the FM Age of Hundred Kingdoms was only 600 years ago, the Andals got here much earlier then that

[The Dragon Demands]

But it couldn't be a First Men thing if Arlan III Durrandon was part of it, less than 400 years before Aegon's Conquest.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

But it couldn't be a First Men thing if Arlan III Durrandon was part of it, less than 400 years before Aegon's Conquest.

That's because he wasn't part of it. The Age of 100 Kingdoms is probably a FM thing, as is showed my post above. Unless it was an Andal thing, which there isn't evidence for, it's an error.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Hundred Kingdoms did not end overnight. In some regions unification occurred much earlier than in others. So you probably had a gradual reduction over time from 100 to around 20 kingdoms around 700 years ago, before the final push to the 7 kingdoms that Aegon encountered. Similarly, the Andals did not arrive everywhere simultaneously. So while the Gardeners may have united the Reach before the Andals arrived in Highgarden, this could still have been a thousand years after the Andals arrived in the Vale.

[The Dragon Demands]

That's because he wasn't part of it. The Age of 100 Kingdoms is probably a FM thing, as is showed my post above. Unless it was an Andal thing, which there isn't evidence for, it's an error.

well...

During the Age of the Hundred

Kingdoms, King Arlan I (the Avenger) swept all before

him, extending the borders of his kingdom as far as the

Blackwater Rush and the headwaters of the Mander.

Okay, it seems clear here that Arlan I was in the Age of a Hundred Kingdoms, but his "great-grandson" was Arlan III -- who lived only 400 years before the Conquest.

So Arlan I lived, what? A century or so before Arlan III?