So this book is about the blackwoods right?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I, for one, would like to know how can a son of two First Men Houses be considered an Andal. According to Yandel, Benedict Justman, the first Andal king to rule the Riverlands, was the bastard of a Blackwood/Bracken couple.

And yes, there do seem to be a lot of Blackwoods woven through the story.

Blackwood marries a say Vance, and Bracken marries say a Mallister. Mr Blackwood/Vance and Ms Bracken/Mallister have a bastard Benedict together, who found House Justman. By that time the Blackwoods and Brackens had married Andals.

[Ash Kumar]

The Blackwoods very likely carry the earth magic affinity gene like the Starks so their descendents have a chance to Warg, skinchange,green see, etc. The only ever Targaryan we know does this is Bloodraven and his mother was a Blackwood. With the Blackwood's history, it's even possible they were the original family to carry this gene and have strengthened it with intermarriage to cousins (as the Stark family line shows they themselves did, marrying cousins and Blackwoods and other First Men families that might carry the gene). That means of course that when Aegon the Unworthy married Betha Blackwood, the gene entered the Targaryan main line. Any of his descendents might have the gene, either as carriers, or fully manifested under the right circumstances. I suspect Duncan the Small might have manifested them given his attraction and marriage to nature girl Jenny - but just a suspicion. Anyway, she might only be a carrier but as a descendent of Betha, Dany could manifest Earth magic traits in the future if hasn't done so already.

Thus the importance of the Blackwoods to the current story and definitely to the future story because of how the whole thing is going to play out on the magical level.

preach!!!!

[glamourweaver]

I, for one, would like to know how can a son of two First Men Houses be considered an Andal. According to Yandel, Benedict Justman, the first Andal king to rule the Riverlands, was the bastard of a Blackwood/Bracken couple.

And yes, there do seem to be a lot of Blackwoods woven through the story.

All the houses are intermarried with both ethnicities. Whether they identify as "First Man" or "Andal" is usually tied to religion. Hence the Brackens tend to be labeled an Andal House despite their history extending back into the Age of Heroes; while the Blackwoods still identify as First Men despite being as heavily intermarried with Andals as the Lannisters, Redwyns, and anyone else.

Benedict had at least one "Andal", Seven-worshiping parent (probably the Bracken), and kept the Seven himself - so he was an Andal.

[Lion of the West]

I, for one, would like to know how can a son of two First Men Houses be considered an Andal. According to Yandel, Benedict Justman, the first Andal king to rule the Riverlands, was the bastard of a Blackwood/Bracken couple.

And yes, there do seem to be a lot of Blackwoods woven through the story.

Wasn't Benedict Justman called Ser? Sounds like be cuturally followed the Andal traditons and it might have been enough at that time to consider him an Andal? Or its and after-construction by his Andal-inclined heirs?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The Blackwoods very likely carry the earth magic affinity gene like the Starks so their descendents have a chance to Warg, skinchange,green see, etc. The only ever Targaryan we know does this is Bloodraven and his mother was a Blackwood. With the Blackwood's history, it's even possible they were the original family to carry this gene and have strengthened it with intermarriage to cousins (as the Stark family line shows they themselves did, marrying cousins and Blackwoods and other First Men families that might carry the gene). That means of course that when Aegon the Unworthy married Betha Blackwood, the gene entered the Targaryan main line. Any of his descendents might have the gene, either as carriers, or fully manifested under the right circumstances. I suspect Duncan the Small might have manifested them given his attraction and marriage to nature girl Jenny - but just a suspicion. Anyway, she might only be a carrier but as a descendent of Betha, Dany could manifest Earth magic traits in the future if hasn't done so already.

Thus the importance of the Blackwoods to the current story and definitely to the future story because of how the whole thing is going to play out on the magical level.

But where did the Blackwoods get it from and how does this connect to the skinchangers beyond the wall? I think you are right about Baby Dunc's Blackwood bent. We also have to put this in context with the expectations of Jon. If everything comes from the Blackwoods and not the Warg King or anything similar, why is Jon so prophecised? It would be very funny if the Targs spent all this time thinking it was the 'BLOOD OF THE DRAGON!' when it was actually Jon having 2 drops of Blackwood blood on either side. All the hubbub about pure blood and marrying for duty and Egg saves the world by marrying a Blackwood he was smitten with. I kind of like that.

[Lady Barbrey]

But where did the Blackwoods get it from and how does this connect to the skinchangers beyond the wall? I think you are right about Baby Dunc's Blackwood bent. We also have to put this in context with the expectations of Jon. If everything comes from the Blackwoods and not the Warg King or anything similar, why is Jon so prophecised? It would be very funny if the Targs spent all this time thinking it was the 'BLOOD OF THE DRAGON!' when it was actually Jon having 2 drops of Blackwood blood on either side. All the hubbub about pure blood and marrying for duty and Egg saves the world by marrying a Blackwood he was smitten with. I kind of like that.

The Blackwoods might have been Warg Kings. Jon's family also intermarried with Blackwoods a lot. Targs talk about the Blood of the dragon cause they had to intermarry to keep it, and only some have the right 'drop' because of out marriages since they came to Westeros. To me it starts with the flooding of the Arm, the coming of the Long Night in response, the blood sacrifice and pact the Children facilitated in order to end it. That's just speculation putting pieces together that make sense. That's when various families made a pact through the children and blood magic to bond with these elemental entities to keep the world going. Otherwise it would have died then because the Others were almost unstoppable. Since then the seasons are irregular because they are controlled through magic not science.

Jon carries Ice Magic too I think. From the Starks not the Blackwoods. So he can convert to an Other and be a necromancer. Yay Jon! That makes him a child of 3 different magical affinities. And I don't think there is anyone else on any of the continents that can be said of. Ice and Fire on two different continents, antithetical to one another, both practicing in-marriages to various degrees in isolated populations, the Ice gene not even manifesting without a conversion so no one really knows about it - all conducive to no ice and fire partnerships. But because Jon has Earth magic too, and Earth is a constituent of both Fire and Ice, it can serve as a mediator of the antitheticals.

So Jon is definitely our last hero, last sacrifice, needed to channel all these energies, helped by his Ice/Earth brother Bran and the Fire/Earth sorcerer Bloodraven and Possibly Fire/earth Dany once the massive bloodbath for blood magic is through to do it.

Tyrion I'm saving my breath on. All depends on whether he's Aerys's son to get a sense of where his end game might lie. I suspect he's got the Targ blood but there's something really appealing about the Lion instead snarling in the midst of the dragons.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Jon carries Ice Magic too I think. From the Starks not the Blackwoods. So he can convert to an Other and be a necromancer. Yay Jon! That makes him a child of 3 different magical affinities. And I don't think there is anyone else on any of the continents that can be said of. Ice and Fire on two different continents, antithetical to one another, both practicing in-marriages to various degrees in isolated populations, the Ice gene not even manifesting without a conversion so no one really knows about it - all conducive to no ice and fire partnerships. But because Jon has Earth magic too, and Earth is a constituent of both Fire and Ice, it can serve as a mediator of the antitheticals.

So Jon is definitely our last hero, last sacrifice, needed to channel all these energies, helped by his Ice/Earth brother Bran and the Fire/Earth sorcerer Bloodraven and Possibly Fire/earth Dany once the massive bloodbath for blood magic is through to do it.

IMO, he's also the confluence of 4 Royal bloodlines - Rhoynar, First Men, Andal and Valyrian (and may also have an inkling of Children's blood, too), making him the real king of Westeros by blood, if not by birth.

We also have to put this in context with the expectations of Jon. If everything comes from the Blackwoods and not the Warg King or anything similar, why is Jon so prophecised?

I like Lady Barbrey's explanation above, but I have a different one to offer - or rather an addition to it. While rereading The World of Ice and Fire chapter on the Starks, I came upon a very interesting sentence.

Warning! TWOIAF spoiler below

"...Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III...even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon." - TWOIAF, page 141

This is the first time I've ever seen "Ice and Fire" used directly to describe a relationship between the Starks and the Targaryens (at least as far as I know) - and it was clearly an alliance built on a marriage. From this I think we can finally put to rest the theory that Torrhen Stark was rewarded with a Targaryen bride for kneeling to Aegon. If he had, Cregan receiving one would not be such a big deal. Thus, the first joining of Ice and Fire did not happen.

Or was it the first? When Aegon conquered the kingdoms, Rhaenys devised a series of marriage alliances to bind it together. One of those was between Ronnel Arryn - the boy-king of the Vale, and a daughter of Torrhen Stark. That line, however, was ended when Ronnel was murdered by his brother - after which the Lordship of the Vale passed to a cousin of theirs. And all of the Targaryens since Aegon III (including the Blackfyres) are descendants of that cousin.

So, was it just chance that ruined that possibility of a Stark-Targaryen marriage (through the Arryns) as well? Or was it destiny (in other words, narrative purpose) that required that?

I think it was the latter. I believe that an Ice and Fire child was supposed to lead the resistance against the Others - and having them be born so early would defeat the purpose. It is also possible that the bloodlines didn't have all ingredients at this point yet.

If Lady Barbrey is right - and Ice and Fire needed all other elements to balance them, then a stable union of the two couldn't have happened until the Water of the Rhoynish Martells had entered the equation as well. This happened three generations after Rhaenyra, with the marriage between Daeron II and Mariah Martell.

And, to complete the package, even though the Arryns have never been noted to possess a magic, their symbolism is the one that comes closest to the element of Air.

It is also possible that the Starks already had the Earth element through their marriage with the daughter of the Marsh King, who was rumored to have Children's blood. I personally prefer this version, but either would work in terms of Earth entering the mix.

So, to put the whole equation in simple terms:

Stark + Marsh Kings (Ice + Earth) = the whole Stark lineage since King Rickard Stark

Targaryen + Arryn (Fire + Air) = Rhaenyra Targaryen

Targaryen + Martell (Fire/Air + Water) = Maekar Targaryen

Targaryen + Blackwood (Fire/Air/Water + Earth) = Jaehaerys II Targaryen

Targaryen + Stark (Fire/Air/Water/Earth + Ice/Earth) = Jon Snow

It is also worth noting that Maekar's wife was a Dayne - which could give Jon a claim to Dawn and the Sword of the Morning title (even if it is a weak one).

[Lady Tierneigh]

Is it just me or is everybody Robert's cousin?

If they're not Robert's cousin, they're Robert's bastard. [emoji6]

[Lady Tierneigh]

And following that with my own crackpot theory the Dunk is a Blackwood bastard. Blackwoods...they're everywhere!