Melisandre Chapter

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

@ SJ4 i believe what wolfmaid was trying to get across was that in the beginning when Mel says i have to try again she has to try again because she saw stannis' doom and she didnt like that. That's an assumption of course, who knows maybe she's actually talking about the girl in grey. I mean honestly all she says is he's marching towards peril well no shit. And wolfmaid unless you have had conversations with GRRM ( which maybe u have) seriously calm down on acting like you know EVERYTHING, people are allowed to have their own opinions without having to be ridiculed. And if you don't realize you're doing it YOU ARE.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

As far as Blood raven seeing her i believe thats her flames kind of warning her. Shes at the wall witha shit load of ravens and god knows what else so he can def see her anytime he wants without having to hijack or coax or anything with her flames. So its like a warning hey this other powerful person is watching you so you better be on your game.

[wolfmaid7]

I'll assume for the sake of simplicity that Rh'llor is indeed a sapient, god-like entity that sends Mel these visions with a purpose (which I'm less than certain about).

I doubt Mel got the answer she thought was asking for (emphasis on thought). Half of the problem is that to find answers you have to ask the right question, and she keeps asking utter nonsense. The other half is that we don't know what nRh'llor's purpose is with this whole business. Is it to to lead Mel to Azor Ahai as she assumes/hopes, or is he just using Mel's desire to find AA to get her do stuff he needs to get done? I'm leaning towards the latter. I can just hear Rh'llor thinking "I dunno who the heck this AA guy is and what he has to do with Stannis, and which one you really want to know about ... but that's not important anyway: THIS is what you should be concerned with". (and that's ignoring the possible Bloodraven hijack)

Also, LOL ... is she not asking what awaits her? "Show me Stannis .... your King, your instrument" - now who is the main instrument of Rh'llor here? I'd think it's Mel herself. She asked for 3 consequent things, thinking they're all the same - Stannis, Rh'llor's king, and RH'llor's instrument ... and got answer to the last :P

Anyway, back on track - we don't know how she ended up on Dragonstone - my guess would be that she was asking Rh'llor for directions to AA (although one has to wonder whether she met Marwyn in Asshai, whether they discussed certain prophecies and whether this had to do with her trip to DS ... but I'm getting off track again).

We do know some of the stuff she foresaw in her flames happened because she made them happen (Renly's death, Stannis wielding a burning sword). So wouldn't it be convenient for Rh'llor to show her what he wants and rely on her getting it done? She does everything thinking that 1. her god was guiding her to find and help AA and 2. she's done with the finding part and now she's helping AA. Now, we can be reasonably sure she's wrong about #2, so what reason do we have to think that she's right about #1?

The bottom line is, the passages in Mel's chapter are suitably vague to give everyone the reading they desire. If you want to assume that Mel's purpose is to find AA then sure, it can be seen as a clue pointing to Jon as AA. But the only reason to think that is Mel's own belief - and we've seen how good she's at deluding herself. And without that assumption, the 'clue' is more likely to be a red herring.

Absolutely perfect,that's what i've been saying. She is so freaked out desperately hoping that good old R'hollor will break her off a "lil somtin sometin" She is asking different things....Like i told my firend Sji4 that "show me your king,show me your instrument" is another factor different from AA who we know was never a king or instrument.This sequence should be considered along the lines of.

1. Whose sending the visions....Someone is always behind dem danm whisphers....Bran was behind Jon's and Theon in the god's wood heard the whisper of "Bran" goddess knows who was whispering to him.Someone is always always behind those things so we can't put stock onto the vision as a true one an consider Mel herself could be a convienient chess on someone else's board.

@ SJ4 i believe what wolfmaid was trying to get across was that in the beginning when Mel says i have to try again she has to try again because she saw stannis' doom and she didnt like that. That's an assumption of course, who knows maybe she's actually talking about the girl in grey. I mean honestly all she says is he's marching towards peril well no shit. And wolfmaid unless you have had conversations with GRRM ( which maybe u have) seriously calm down on acting like you know EVERYTHING, people are allowed to have their own opinions without having to be ridiculed. And if you don't realize you're doing it YOU ARE.

"Your" opinion and your entitled to that.Everyone is entitled to their opnion yes,but when people edit a text to bare minimum and then draw a conclusion based on "presenting" something incomplete in comes off as slanting info.If you don't care for my bluntness i do not apologize for it.Its not ridicule its passionately arguing a point.I already told Sji4 that i'm not meaning to be snarky its passionate arguement and nothing personal.

As to wheter or not Mel saw Stannis's doom that is not an assumption it is inferred based on the text and the conversation Mel was havng with her self.Not an assumption fact.( being blunt not snarky)

"The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the

hearthfire. "One more time." She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been

brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had

sent.Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn.Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him.(She's hoping the vision of him marching to peril would change that's why she kept asking.Hoping she would get a boon from R'hollor)."Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

As far as Blood raven seeing her i believe thats her flames kind of warning her. Shes at the wall witha shit load of ravens and god knows what else so he can def see her anytime he wants without having to hijack or coax or anything with her flames. So its like a warning hey this other powerful person is watching you so you better be on your game.

Mel will know if BR is seeing her or not i take her word for it because there is precedence that the flames are two way. I base this on the fact of Mels other visions Hardome and at Jon's stabbing. He description "it was unbelievably cold" When she showed Stannis the flames himself he two felt the cold through the flames. Indicating that things can "come through" the flames to the person who opened it up as a divining medium on the other end. That is not me acting like i know everything that is analysis.

[sj4iy]

"Your" opinion and your entitled to that.Everyone is entitled to their opnion yes,but when people edit a text to bare minimum and then draw a conclusion based on "presenting" something incomplete in comes off as slanting info.If you don't care for my bluntness i do not apologize for it.Its not ridicule its passionately arguing a point.I already told Sji4 that i'm not meaning to be snarky its passionate arguement and nothing personal.

As to wheter or not Mel saw Stannis's doom that is not an assumption it is inferred based on the text and the conversation Mel was havng with her self.Not an assumption fact.( being blunt not snarky)

"The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the

hearthfire. "One more time." She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been

brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had

sent.Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn.Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him.(She's hoping the vision of him marching to peril would change that's why she kept asking.Hoping she would get a boon from R'hollor)."Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

Mel will know if BR is seeing her or not i take her word for it because there is precedence that the flames are two way. I base this on the fact of Mels other visions Hardome and at Jon's stabbing. He description "it was unbelievably cold" When she showed Stannis the flames himself he two felt the cold through the flames. Indicating that things can "come through" the flames to the person who opened it up as a divining medium on the other end. That is not me acting like i know everything that is analysis.

The point is that she didn't see Stannis marching into peril- it's simply what she knows is happening. It's never once depicted as a vision- she knows that danger awaits him and she wants to know what will happen to him.

[wolfmaid7]

The point is that she didn't see Stannis marching into peril- it's simply what she knows is happening. It's never once depicted as a vision- she knows that danger awaits him and she wants to know what will happen to him.

Sj4iy: She did,if she didn't she would not be looking again ....to make sure of what she'd seen. Ofcourse she knew she saw it in her flames that's why she was freaked out. Plus when he decided to march south anyway what was Mel's advice? Hmm what was her advice when Jon was doing his razzle dazzle? Had she known then she would have said something then and the night after that.No there was a point where it was clear Stannis was Marching into "peril". Not danger or a bit of a rough patch,skirmish,resistance........PERIL.

[sj4iy]

Sj4iy: She did,if she didn't she would not be looking again ....to make sure of what she'd seen. Ofcourse she knew she saw it in her flames that's why she was freaked out. Plus when he decided to march south anyway what was Mel's advice? Hmm what was her advice when Jon was doing his razzle dazzle? Had she known then she would have said something then and the night after that.No there was a point where it was clear Stannis was Marching into "peril". Not danger or a bit of a rough patch,skirmish,resistance........PERIL.

I disagree. There's nothing in any of her answers that leads us to think that she ever saw Stannis or what faced him. When Jon asks her specifically about Stannis, for example:

A wonder you haven’t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen’s ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. “You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?”

“When I search for him all I see is snow.”

The same useless answer.

This is very clear: she never sees Stannis because every time she searches for him, she only sees "snow" (or "Snow", given that she said "Snow" after her previous vision, and she says to Jon that she sees him every time she looks into the flames). She's not talking about the fluffy white stuff- she is talking about Jon, given the context of the previous conversations and this one.

[Matthew.]

Sj4iy: She did,if she didn't she would not be looking again ....to make sure of what she'd seen. Ofcourse she knew she saw it in her flames that's why she was freaked out.

Disagree completely. Her own thoughts on the matter:

"Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him."

That does not imply she had a vision and didn't like what she saw, it implies she's failing to see anything at all of Stannis' fate. If she's already seen his fate, why would she need a glimpse of what awaits him?

And, as has already been stated, that Stannis is 'marching into peril' would be an accurate description, regardless of whether he wins or loses the battle of Winterfell.

[wolfmaid7]

I disagree. There's nothing in any of her answers that leads us to think that she ever saw Stannis or what faced him. When Jon asks her specifically about Stannis, for example:

A wonder you haven’t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen’s ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. “You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?”

“When I search for him all I see is snow.”

The same useless answer.

This is very clear: she never sees Stannis because every time she searches for him, she only sees "snow" (or "Snow", given that she said "Snow" after her previous vision, and she says to Jon that she sees him every time she looks into the flames). She's not talking about the fluffy white stuff- she is talking about Jon, given the context of the previous conversations and this one.

As i said there was a point in which she did see him and it had to do with the vision in which she was engaged in at the time we the readers are reading it. The one i cited above.

And don't go changing context again.When she looks in the flames for Stannis before this time "When I search for him all I see is snow." This "snow" is not Jon it is just snow never ending unceasing snow.She's probably seeing the weather outside Winterfell.

Then switch to this vision ...This is the one where she sees "Snow" it is capatilized indicating that the snow and Snow are different.

[wolfmaid7]

Disagree completely. Her own thoughts on the matter:

"Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him."

That does not imply she had a vision and didn't like what she saw, it implies she's failing to see anything at all of Stannis' fate. If she's already seen his fate, why would she need a glimpse of what awaits him?

And, as has already been stated, that Stannis is 'marching into peril' would be an accurate description, regardless of whether he wins or loses the battle of Winterfell.

Again context is everthing respecfully disagree.The bolded red is all i need to proove this point.It is not an accurate description Matthew because only we the readers know what truly awaited him because we had forknowledge of this.This woman has repeatedly propped Stannis up, told him how many times he would be victorious,that he can't loose because he is AA.Told him at the Black water if she didn't go with he would loose.Now for the first time she chooses not to be at Stannis's side while he goes off....She did'nt fear for him. There came a point she did.

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the

hearthfire. "One more time." She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been

brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had

sent.Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn.Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him

[Matthew.]

Yes, context is everything, and the fact that she also asks for visions of AA and is shown only Snow adds context to her wanting a glimpse of what awaits Stannis. If she's already been given a vision of Stannis' doom, why would she think she needs "a glimpse of what awaited him?" That sentence is structured in such a way to imply that she's not getting any glimpses of Stannis at all, not that she's seen his fate and didn't like what she saw.

[sj4iy]

As i said there was a point in which she did see him and it had to do with the vision in which she was engaged in at the time we the readers are reading it. The one i cited above.

And don't go changing context again.When she looks in the flames for Stannis before this time "When I search for him all I see is snow." This "snow" is not Jon it is just snow never ending unceasing snow.She's probably seeing the weather outside Winterfell.

Then switch to this vision ...This is the one where she sees "Snow" it is capatilized indicating that the snow and Snow are different.

No. You have to look at it from the context of the POV.

In MELISANDRE'S POV, she says "All I see is Snow"- meaning, obviously, Jon Snow, because that's who she just saw and who she is thinking about.

In JON'S POV, he INTERPRETS her as saying "snow", and not his name. But that's because he's not privy to her thoughts or visions, and he THINKS that she's talking about the fluffy white stuff.

So no, I don't think she has seen the snow at all like Jon thinks she has.

[wolfmaid7]

No. You have to look at it from the context of the POV.

In MELISANDRE'S POV, she says "All I see is Snow"- meaning, obviously, Jon Snow, because that's who she just saw and who she is thinking about.

In JON'S POV, he INTERPRETS her as saying "snow", and not his name. But that's because he's not privy to her thoughts or visions, and he THINKS that she's talking about the fluffy white stuff.

So no, I don't think she has seen the snow at all like Jon thinks she has.

That is another ambiguous one.You are right it is Jon's POV but that's not what i was getting at.I do believe that the vision we were privy to was different than her others. I do believe what she is seeing is the snowstorm outside WF. Here's why.She has already told Jon she sees him in her flames,why not say all i see is you. It seems weird that he's talking to her and she would be so "formal" then and not say i see you. Again more ambiguity,but certainly worth looking at.

[sj4iy]

That is another ambiguous one.You are right it is Jon's POV but that's not what i was getting at.I do believe that the vision we were privy to was different than her others. I do believe what she is seeing is the snowstorm outside WF. Here's why.She has already told Jon she sees him in her flames,why not say all i see is you. It seems weird that he's talking to her and she would be so "formal" then and not say i see you. Again more ambiguity,but certainly worth looking at.

I don't think she has seen anything different. She is clearly puzzled as to why she keeps seeing him over and over and over again, and doesn't understand why. She knows danger faces him, but that's not all...she's confused by not getting the answers she is seeking. But to admit that she is confused would be a sign of weakness, so she keeps this to herself through ambiguity- which she has done since we met her, and very much fits her MO.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't think she has seen anything different. She is clearly puzzled as to why she keeps seeing him over and over and over again, and doesn't understand why. She knows danger faces him, but that's not all...she's confused by not getting the answers she is seeking. But to admit that she is confused would be a sign of weakness, so she keeps this to herself through ambiguity- which she has done since we met her, and very much fits her MO.

I have no doubt about her frustration,but imo she has seen things differently. Indicated by Bran and BR's presence.

[sj4iy]

I have no doubt about her frustration,but imo she has seen things differently. Indicated by Bran and BR's presence.

I have no doubt that she sees new things each time- but Jon remains the constant. I don't believe BR or Bran have done anything to her- I think that they have been helping Jon and she sees that in her visions.

[Black Crow]

The point is that she didn't see Stannis marching into peril- it's simply what she knows is happening. It's never once depicted as a vision- she knows that danger awaits him and she wants to know what will happen to him.

That I can agree with, which is why she wants to see him, but from whatever source is picking up something else entirely in her tea leaves. She gets warnings about Jon Snow not because he is Azor Ahai but because the danger there is far more urgent than whatever Stannis is marching into.

Regarding her repeated visions as belated revelations that Jon Snow is the man [why now?] ignores the fact she also looks for Arya Stark and gets the wholly unanticipated Alys Karstark and gets laughed at by Bloodraven and his apprentice.

[wolfmaid7]

I have no doubt that she sees new things each time- but Jon remains the constant. I don't believe BR or Bran have done anything to her- I think that they have been helping Jon and she sees that in her visions.

You get no argument there but again context is key and that is where we'll disagree.

You believe that vision is pointing to Jon being AA.

I believe Mel's statement at the end is a big red herring and the subtle hints is saying

The vision's origin is compromised and it points to the possibility that Jon could be a danger to certain factions

Or that his role is something else entirely.

[sj4iy]

You get no argument there but again context is key and that is where we'll disagree.

You believe that vision is pointing to Jon being AA.

I believe Mel's statement at the end is a big red herring and the subtle hints is saying

The vision's origin is compromised and it points to the possibility that Jon could be a danger to certain factions

Or that his role is something else entirely.

There we will just have to disagree. I think as I thought before- AAR/TPTWP is Jon, Dany or a combination of the two. I think Jon was introduced too late in the story as a possible candidate to be a red herring. I don't think Aegon, real or not, will factor into it at all.

[nanother]

Absolutely perfect,that's what i've been saying. She is so freaked out desperately hoping that good old R'hollor will break her off a "lil somtin sometin" She is asking different things....Like i told my firend Sji4 that "show me your king,show me your instrument" is another factor different from AA who we know was never a king or instrument.This sequence should be considered along the lines of.

1. Whose sending the visions....Someone is always behind dem danm whisphers....Bran was behind Jon's and Theon in the god's wood heard the whisper of "Bran" goddess knows who was whispering to him.Someone is always always behind those things so we can't put stock onto the vision as a true one an consider Mel herself could be a convienient chess on someone else's board.

Yes. I do wonder who "Rh'llor" is. I'm pretty sure it's NOT some benevolent deity working with all his power to save humanity and turn Planetos into everlasting paradise.

"Your" opinion and your entitled to that.Everyone is entitled to their opnion yes,but when people edit a text to bare minimum and then draw a conclusion based on "presenting" something incomplete in comes off as slanting info.If you don't care for my bluntness i do not apologize for it.Its not ridicule its passionately arguing a point.I already told Sji4 that i'm not meaning to be snarky its passionate arguement and nothing personal.

As to wheter or not Mel saw Stannis's doom that is not an assumption it is inferred based on the text and the conversation Mel was havng with her self.Not an assumption fact.( being blunt not snarky)

"The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the

hearthfire. "One more time." She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been

brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had

sent.Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn.Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him.(She's hoping the vision of him marching to peril would change that's why she kept asking.Hoping she would get a boon from R'hollor)."Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

OK I was planning to stay out of this, but I can't resist. The "passionate argument" excuse only works as long as

1. you can cool down, step back, and try to see whether the other person has a valid reason to disagree with you. You're not the only person on these boards capable of putting two and two together, and you're not infallible or omniscient either.

2. if someone finds your manner offensive, you try and see if you can be more tactful in the future. No, passionate and tactful are not mutually exclusive.

3. Failing that, at least your argument should be solid enough to warrant this attitude. It isn't, in the case of interpreting Mel's vision you're as guilty of ignoring context as any of the posters you're accusing of the same.

I actually agree with much of what you're saying, but I dunno why you insist on Mel having seen Stan's doom. Seriously,you don't need divine inspiration to figure out Stannis is going to be in peril. And perils is a long way from doom, unless he doesn't survive. So her saying peril (as opposed to doom) implies just that - she knows he's in danger and she doesn't know how it'll end, but she really wants to.

"She had to be certain" - of what? That all her previous visions (whatever they were) were false? Possibly but it'd be a very odd choice of words in that case, and IMO there are more fitting readings. Her conviction that Stan's AA and has a great destiny ahead of him makes her nearly sure he's going to be OK, but she wants to be certain, and have a vision of his fate. Possibly, she's even seeking to reaffirm her conviction - she's desperately clinging to her 'saviour', but she's not quite stupid enough to not have doubts.

Also, if she kept having visions about Stan's doom, then why did she suddenly see NOTHING about him when asked for one last confirmation? Why does she say repeatedly she's praying for a glimpse of Stannis if what she really means is a different glimpse? I'm the first person to say she's self-delusional, but she's not that dishonest with herself.

You insist "all I see is snow" means the snowstorm around Winterfell, but the one time we saw what she saw, it was clearly NOT that. So, what is more reliable, what we see in the character's head, or what we speculate based on what we hear through another character's ear? It might all serve as a red herring as far as Jon=AA goes (I tend to think of the whole AA business as one very fat red herring so no arguments from me there), but I primarily see it as a clue (that she doesn't get) that Jon and the frozen stuff up North is far more important than Stannis.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Some readers have inferred that BR, as a greenseer mostly gone "into the trees" at this point, may well have the ability to interfere with flame-readings - as the Ghost of High Heart says to Thoros:

Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, youll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.

Cool. I have brought up this passage before, not in this context, just to show that one use of 'magic' can overpower another. I think it fits perfectly here in the discussion of Mel's visions. Her live fire feed is not blocked but she is picking up interference.

As to the visions, Mel is seeing many things. There is Bloodraven and Bran, what seems to be Eastwatch-by-the-sea, possibly Hardhome. The eyeless faces weeping blood are the Rangers who the Weeper is killing, or possibly the weirwoods. She also sees Jon. When Mel states all she sees is Snow, we know that's not true. She sees many things. And the visions are about the Wall, and north of the wall.

In Jon's POV when she says she only sees snow, I took that her visions of South are corrupted by winter and are effectively blocked. ETA, or just not available.