(TWOIAF Spoilers) Bloodraven almost as ruthless as Tywin

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Nah. Ned Stark, Hand of the King and well-versed in Westerosi laws, states that Edmure did not.

No, he does not.

Ned has no idea that there are 4,000 soldiers on there way to the Golden Tooth.

[David Selig]

No, he does not.

Ned has no idea that there are 4,000 soldiers on there way to the Golden Tooth.

Nope.

Ned could feel the unease in the hall, as high lords and servants alike strained to listen. He could not pretend to surprise. The west had been a tinderbox since Catelyn had seized Tyrion Lannister. Both Riverrun and Casterly Rock had called their banners, and armies were massing in the pass below the Golden Tooth.

At the council table below, Petyr Baelish lost interest in his quill and leaned forward. “Ser Marq, Ser Karyl, Ser Raymun—perhaps I might ask you a question? These holdfasts were under your protection. Where were you when all this slaughtering and burning was going on?”

Ser Karyl Vance answered. “I was attending my lord father in the pass below the Golden Tooth, as was Ser Marq.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Nope.

Maybe.

Your first quote could well be a reference to the huge Lannister army.

Just after the second quote Darry even says:

Ser Raymun Darry spoke up. "Ser Edmure had summoned me to Riverrun with all my strength. I was camped across the river from his walls, awaiting his commands, when the word reached me.

which makes it sound like the Riverrun army is amassing outside of Riverrun.

Ned even thinks that

Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king's peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

This is basically what happened, the Riverlords were in Westerlands territory. They came to Ned to ask permission to 'strike' back and Ned tells them it is the Kings business.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Interesting that you ommitted

Ser Karyl Vance answered. “I was attending my lord father in the pass below the Golden Tooth, as was Ser Marq.

[Ramsay Gimp]

You need to embrace the 'Tywin knew about the bastardry accusation against Cersei all along' Ramsay. It makes more sense that way.

Here is Cersei in CoK. Without much prompting she offers;

I am much closer to accepting it than I was previously, but I still hesitate. Tywin knowing about the incest would represent a pretty big change in my conception of his character

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I am much closer to accepting it than I was previously, but I still hesitate. Tywin knowing about the incest would represent a pretty big change in my conception of his character

I really dont buy that Tywin knew about it just because of Cersei's reaction in AFFC when Kevan surprises her with the revelation that he knows.

When Cersi offers him the Handship she tells him how much Tywin relied on him and goes on to say

As for Handship . . . who better to finish my father's work than the brother who shared all his counsels?"

"Every man needs someone he can trust. Tywin had me, and once your mother."

Which is something we the reader already knew from Tyrion telling us in AGOT.

Now Cerseis reaction to Kevan leaving and letting her know that he is aware of her and Jaime is shock and panic. She visits Jaime in the middle of the night,

"Speak softly." Her voice sounded strange . . . breathless, almost frightened. "Jaime, Kevan has refused me. He will not serve as Hand, he . . . he knows about us. He said as much."

"Refused?" That surprised him. "How could he know? He will have read what Stannis wrote, but there is no . . ."

"Tyrion knew," she reminded him. "Who can say what tales that vile dwarf may have told, or to whom?

If she was aware that Tywin knew then why woud she not simply assume that Tywin was the one to tell him rather than Tyrion.

Interesting that you ommitted

Interesting that you left out the full quote

... as was Ser Marq. When the word of these outrages reached Ser Edmure Tully, he sent word that we should take a small force of men to find what survivors we could and bring them to the king."

I dont think 4k qualifies as a small force of men, do you?

[Vikingkingq]

It doesn't matter how big or how small. Below the Golden Tooth is Riverlands territory. Edmure and Hoster were very careful to stay within the law - and appeal to the law to get the king's protection.

The Lannisters began the war at the Mummer's Ford and the Golden Tooth.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I really dont buy that Tywin knew about it just because of Cersei's reaction in AFFC when Kevan surprises her with the revelation that he knows.

When Cersi offers him the Handship she tells him how much Tywin relied on him and goes on to say

Which is something we the reader already knew from Tyrion telling us in AGOT.

Now Cerseis reaction to Kevan leaving and letting her know that he is aware of her and Jaime is shock and panic. She visits Jaime in the middle of the night,

If she was aware that Tywin knew then why woud she not simply assume that Tywin was the one to tell him rather than Tyrion.

Good points. I agree there's no way Cersei told Tywin the actual truth.

But I think I actually misunderstood Hear Me Meow; he was just saying that Cersei told her father about the accusations at some point before he marches in AGOT. Not that she let him in on the truth. If Tywin knew Joffrey was Jaime's seed, he deduced it on his own

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It doesn't matter how big or how small. Below the Golden Tooth is Riverlands territory.

Not according to the Map of the new World book, there seems to be a fair bit of Westerland territory between Golden Tooth and the border, around 50 miles.

If I was to say there was a battle below Winterfell where do you think that took place, or a battle below the Twins, a battle below the Dreadfort etc.

Golden Tooth has been featured on the maps from the first book. He's had time to change either the location of the Golden Tooth or make the border closer to the Tooth in the new book. GRRM has done neither.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Can someone tell me how Bittersteels is better than Bloodraven? BS started war! Because why??? Because he fucking didn't like his brothers and felt he deserved a better and higher position.

At the Redgrass alone 10,000 died! Has Bloodraven killed that many? Not that we know of but we know Bittersteals actions attributed to a war that spanned 5 generations and killed thousands behind his Actions alone.

Tywins is worse. Even though the gastop state he created was very bad but no different from real life rulers and there spymasters Sir Francios Beacon Elizabeth spymaster?

[Mr Hodor]

Utilitarianism is basically the only viable justification for acting in a Machiavellian fashion/pursuing realpolitik. It's also the reason Tywin himself uses to justify his atrocities. It's saying that your actions, while cruel, dishonourable and breaking the established rules, are also utilitarian because they reduce future death and suffering. It's better to kill one man (whatever the method and circumstances) than risk a war that will kill thousands. Killing an envoy or an infant is normally despicable, but what if it saves hundreds, can we really condemn it? Utilitarianism. Take that away, and you're just left with cruel and dishonourable actions and no way to morally explain them away.

Utalitarianism cannot be used as a justification of being Machiacellian.

[Chaircat Meow]

But I think I actually misunderstood Hear Me Meow; he was just saying that Cersei told her father about the accusations at some point before he marches in AGOT. Not that she let him in on the truth. If Tywin knew Joffrey was Jaime's seed, he deduced it on his own

Yeah, that's what I meant.

[Maid So Fair]

Utalitarianism cannot be used as a justification of being Machiacellian.

Er, okay? Would you care to elaborate?

I know.

Then how this not count as starting a war? Raiding villages is generally considered a hostile action and it happens before people in the Riverlands do anything of the sort.

[Chaircat Meow]

@Ramsay

The accusations being that Joff and co were bastards. She would not have mentioned Jaime at all. In the quote I gave she was clearly going to say Jon believed (falsely - she changed suspected to believed) the kids were not hers, so I think that's what she told Tywin.

[Mr Hodor]

Er, okay? Would you care to elaborate?

Utalitarianism's defining characteristic is maximising utility (usually maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain) for every actor of the party in question. John Stuart mill clarified higher and lower pleasure and also clarified that happiness and contentment are it the same.

Regarding Higher and lower pleasures:

Higher pleasures are pleasures are of intellectual and spiritual kind. In his words "we are justified in ascribing to the preferred enjoyment a superiority in quality so far outweighing quantity as to render it, in comparison, of small account."

infact higher pleasures (between two pleasures) can be defined as the pleasure that a person equally acquainted with and equally capable of appreciating and enjoying prefer most of the times. Its like the people who appreciate Classical music do not appreciate modern pop music.

Regarding Happiness and Contentment John Stuart Mill states that

"it is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question."

Machiavellianism on the other hand is the employment of cunning and duplicity in order to maximize personal gain. Because it is a lower pleasure and also because it is not actually happiness, it is contentment.

[Mr Hodor]

Can someone tell me how Bittersteels is better than Bloodraven? BS started war! Because why??? Because he fucking didn't like his brothers and felt he deserved a better and higher position.

At the Redgrass alone 10,000 died! Has Bloodraven killed that many? Not that we know of but we know Bittersteals actions attributed to a war that spanned 5 generations and killed thousands behind his Actions alone.

Tywins is worse. Even though the gastop state he created was very bad but no different from real life rulers and there spymasters Sir Francios Beacon Elizabeth spymaster?

Dameon started war, BS joined him. the 10,000 dead in Redgrass field can neither be contributed to neither BS not BR.

What is a gastop state?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Then how this not count as starting a war? Raiding villages is generally considered a hostile action and it happens before people in the Riverlands do anything of the sort.

And so is kidnapping foreign dignitaries.

[Vikingkingq]

Not according to the Map of the new World book, there seems to be a fair bit of Westerland territory between Golden Tooth and the border, around 50 miles.

Those maps are massively screwed up, tho. Saltpans is in two different kingdoms depending on which map you look at, the Mountains of the Moon are in the wrong place, the Vale of Arryn doesn't appear, etc.

[Maid So Fair]

And so is kidnapping foreign dignitaries.

1, Westerlands are not a sovereign country so Tyrion can't possibly be a foreign dignitary. Even if they were he'd at best be a family member of a dignitary.

2, it's an arrest, not a kidnapping, and Catelyn makes the reason she's s seizing him pretty clear. I understand hat Tywin might not want to acknowledge or appreciate the difference.

3, if it was a wrongful arrest, which is far from clear since Tyrion is given a trial and the crime in question happened in the North, the correct response would be to appeal to a higher legal authority ie the King for his release. Cersei even does this.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1, Westerlands are not a sovereign country so Tyrion can't possibly be a foreign dignitary. Even if they were he'd at best be a family member of a dignitary.

He's the heir of the Westerlands, of course he would be classed as a dignirty.

2, it's an arrest, not a kidnapping, and Catelyn makes the reason she's s seizing him pretty clear. I understand hat Tywin might not want to acknowledge or appreciate the difference.

Its a kidnapping. Had it been an arrest then either her Husband, the Hand, Hoster the Lord of the Riverlands or the King would have authorized it. She had been in Kings Landing only days before and there was no talk of a warrant.

She saw Tywin and decided to kidnap him on the fly.

3, if it was a wrongful arrest, which is far from clear since Tyrion is given a trial and the crime in question happened in the North, the correct response would be to appeal to a higher legal authority ie the King for his release. Cersei even does this.

He is taken to the Vale and is not given a fair defense. He asks for Jaime to defend him and is denied this. The intention is for him to fight his own trial of combat and if he fails then in the eyes of the Wesetrosi Law he would have been guilty.

When Robert finds out he has been arrested, he orders Tyrion to be released. The chief lawmaker of the realm thought it was illegal.

Those maps are massively screwed up, tho. Saltpans is in two different kingdoms depending on which map you look at, the Mountains of the Moon are in the wrong place, the Vale of Arryn doesn't appear, etc.

Is there a single map that puts the Golden Tooth in the Riverlands?

Is House Lefford of the Golden Tooth a Vassal of Riverrun?

GGRM states that the Riverlands is defined by its lack of natural boundaries. Surely a mountain pass dividing the Riverlands from the Westerlands would be classed as such.