Brocktree Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I've been collecting a list of military and naval strengths that I've worked on and gathered from various sources over the last couple months. It's been used in a Steam roleplay group I'm involved in, but just recently I've begun to incorporate the Free Cities into the roleplay, and will need a base set of numbers for military and naval strength. What i'd like input focused on is the Free Cities. [Note] : The "ships" do not include trade ships, only galleys and similar types of warships, as well as the Ironborn longships. The levies for the Free Cities already have mercenaries, Unsullied, slaves, and free men incorporated. I've left out the larger, official mercenary companies - like the Second Sons, the Golden Company, etcetera. Westeros NavyIron Islands: 500 Ships150 at Great Wyk100 at Pyke (Iron Fleet)100 at Ten Towers45 at Old Wyk45 at Blacktyde45 at Orkmont15 at Lonely LightReach: 220 Ships200 at Arbor20 at Shield IslesDragonstone: 150 Ships135 at Dragonstone15 at Claw IsleWesterlands: 105 Ships55 at Lannisport25 at Fair Isle10 at Banefort10 at Feastfires5 at KayceVale: 70 Ships60 at Gulltown10 at the SistersCrownlands: 65 Ships65 at King's LandingStormlands: 50 Ships20 at Rainhouse20 at Evenfall House10 at Storms EndDorne: 40 Ships30 at Sunspear5 at Ghaston Grey5 at StarfallNorth: 30 Ships27 at White Harbor3 at Bear IslandRiverlands: 25 Ships15 at Seaguard10 at Maidenpool Free Cities Military/Navy (requiring heavy revision. Ignore unlisted cities unless you want to discuss them, in which case I might add them.)Tyrosh:25,000 Levy4,000 City Watch1,000 ShipsLys : 31,000 Levy5,000 City Watch800 ShipsMyr:34,000 Levy5,000 City Watch600 ShipsVolantis:35,000 Levy/Slaves9,000 City Watch/Tiger Cloaks400 ShipsBraavos: 30,000 Levy6,000 City Watch1,600 Ships Pentos:??? Westeros Levies/MilitaryThe ReachThe Levies of the Reach: 100,000 - 72,000 Infantry, 28,000 CavalryLevy of Highgarden: 10,000 Infantry, 4,400 CavalryLevy of Oldtown: 10,500 Infantry, 5,300 CavalryLevy of the Arbor: 5,500 Infantry, 700 CavalryLevy of Hornhill: 9,500 Infantry, 4,000 CavalryLevy of Cockleswhent: 7,500 Infantry, 4,500 CavalryLevy of Tumbleton: 6,300 Infantry, 1,600 CavalryLevy of Brightwater: 5,500 Infantry, 3,800 CavalryLevy of Old Oak: 6,000 Infantry, 2,200 CavalryLevy of Golden Grove: 6,200 Infantry, 1,500 CavalryLevy of the Shield Islands : 5,000 InfantryThe WesterlandsThe Levies of the Westerlands: 62,000 - 46,000 Infantry, 16,000 CavalryLevy of Casterly Rock: 11,000 Infantry, 3,000 CavalryLevy of Castamere: 1,000 Infantry, 150 CavalryLevy of Golden Tooth: 13,500 Infantry, 3,500 CavalryLevy of Silverhill: 4,000 Infantry, 1500 CavalryLevy of Kayce: 6,000 Infantry, 1,500 Cavalry Levy of Crakehall: 5,000 Infantry, 3,100 CavalryLevy of the Crag: 2,500 Infantry, 1,250 CavalryLevy of Hornvale: 3,000 Infantry, 2,000 CavalryThe RiverlandsThe Levies of the Riverlands: 45,000 - 40,500 Infantry, 4,500 CavalryLevy of Riverrun: 10,000 Infantry, 1,500 CavalryLevy of Harrenhal: 2,500 Infantry, 100 CavalryLevy of the Crossing: 6,000 Infantry, 500 CavalryLevy of the Bay of Crabs: 4,000 Infantry, 400 CavalryLevy of Pinkmaiden: 5,000 Infantry, 350 Cavalry. Levy of Southstone: 4,000 Infantry, 1,000 CavalryLevy of Blackwood: 5,000 Infantry, 150 CavalryLevy of Seagard: 5,000 Infantry, 500 CavalryThe StormlandsThe Levies of the Stormlands: 41,000 - 35,500 Infantry, 5,500 CavalryLevy of Storm's End: 6,300 Infantry, 700 CavalryLevy of Rainwood: 5,000 Infantry 2,200 CavalryLevy of Tarth: 8,000 Infantry, 500 CavalryLevy of Bronzegate: 4,500, Infantry, 1,000 CavalryLevy of The Dornish Marchs: 4,000 Infantry, 250 CavalryLevy of Summerhall: 1,500 Infantry, 300 CavalryLevy of Stonehelm: 3,500 Infantry, 500 CavalryLevy of Cape Wrath: 2,500 Infantry, 750 CavalryThe ValeThe Levies of the Vale: 41,000- 35,500 Infantry, 5,500 CavalryLevy of the Eyrie: 6,000 Infantry 2,000 CavalryLevy of Gulltown: 8,000 Infantry 1,000 CavalryLevy of the Sisters: 4,500 Infantry, 400 CavalryLevy of Runestone: 5,000 Infantry, 400 CavalryLevy of Grey Mountains: 4,000 Infantry, 1,000 CavalryLevy of the Fells: 3,000 Infantry, 350 CavalryLevy of Ironoaks: 2,500 Infantry, 250 CavalryLevy of the Fingers: 2,500 Infantry, 100 CavalryThe NorthThe Levies of the North: 40,000 - 30,000 Infantry, 10,000 CavalryLevy of Winterfell: 5,700 Infantry, 2,000 CavalryLevy of The Dreadfort: 5,400 Infantry, 1,800 CavalryLevy of White Harbor: 4,200 Infantry, 1,700 CavalryLevy of the Neck: 5,300 Infantry, 500 CavalryLevy of Karhold: 1,300 Infantry, 750 CavalryLevy of Wolfswood: 1,100 Infantry, 250 Cavalry Levy of Last Hearth: 1,000 Infantry, 500 CavalryLevy of the North Clans: 1,100 Infantry Levy of Barrowlands: 2,200 Infantry, 1,350 CavalryLevy of Hornwood: 2,000 Infantry, 1,100 CavalryLevy of Bear Island: 700 Infantry, 50 CavalryDorneThe Levies of Dorne: 29,000 - 24,000 Infantry, 5,000 CavalryLevy of Sunspear: 6,300 Infantry, 1500 CavalryLevy of Vaith: 3,700 Infantry, 200 CavalryLevy of Starfall: 4,300 Infantry, 500 CavalryLevy of Yronwood: 4,800 Infantry, 1,500 CavalryLevy of Brimstone 2,000 Infantry, 1,000 CavalryLevy of Prince's Pass: 2,900 Infantry, 300 CavalryThe Iron IslesThe Levies of the Iron Islands: 25,000 - 24,800 Infantry, 200 CavalryLevy of Pyke: 5,400 Infantry, 100 CavalryLevy of Harlaw: 5,300 Infantry, 100 CavalryLevy of Great Wyk 6,000 InfantryLevy of Old Wky: 2,600 InfantryLevy of Orkmont: 2,300 InfantryLevy of Blacktyde: 2,200 InfantryLevy of Lonely Light: 1,000 InfantryThe CrownlandsThe Levies of the Crownlands: Crownlands: 22,300 - 19,300 Infantry, 3,000 CavalryLevy of King's Landing: 1,400 Infantry, 100 CavalryLevy of Dragonstone: 5,600 Infantry, 400 CavalryLevy of Duskendale: 4,000 Infantry, 1,100 CavalryLevy of Rosby: 2,500 Infantry, 600 CavalryLevy of Blackwater Rush: 1,000 Infantry, 100 CavalryLevy of the Kingswood: 1,000 Infantry, 500 CavalryLevy of Massey's Hook: 1,600 Infantry, 100 CavalryLevy of the Whispers: Ruins.Levy of North Crackclaw Point: 1,000 Infantry, 100 CavalryLevy of South Cracklaw Point: 1,200 InfantryCity WatchKings Landing City Watch : 6,000 - 5,700 Infantry, 300 CavalryLannisport City Watch : 1,000 - 1,000 InfantryOldtown City Watch : 1,000 - 1,000 InfantryTyrosh City Watch/Unsullied : 4,000 - 4,000 Infantry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Where did you get the numbers from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 He/she speculated them. The northern fanboys are going to come for him/her as well, seeing as the North is put 20,000 below the West. Sacrebleu! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 The Reach is way too high. The 100 000 number was most likely an exaggeration of the combined reach and Stormland forces under Renly. The North is way to low as you're giving them less than both the Stormlands and Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 He/she speculated them. The northern fanboys are going to come for him/her as well, seeing as the North is put 20,000 below the West. Sacrebleu!Or northern realists as I like to call us. In any case I'd put the west at 65, 10 to 15 K more the the north, leaning towards 10K more. Tbh there's a lot of info on this out there. There could be a lot of changes made in all sections. For one I would imagine oldtown to have more guards then lannisport. White harbor and gulltown would also have a significant watch force I would think, but smaller then lannisports.As for the free cities it's impossible to say. I think volantis is the strongest on land, braavos on sea. Although volantis also seems to have a fairly good navy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 There is no reason to assume the North has much more than 40.000 men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 What i'd like input focused on is the Free Cities. Problem, as we lack much input about them in a mostly Westeros-centered story. Iron Islands: 500 Ships150 at Great Wyk100 at Pyke (Iron Fleet)100 at Ten Towers45 at Old Wyk45 at Blacktyde45 at Orkmont15 at Lonely Light Seems OK. Theon sees 400 captains before Balon launches his second rebellion, but that is without a couple of houses. 500 longships, of those 100 are the larger war-longships of the Iron Fleet, and 400 common raiding-longships of the Iron Islanders.Reach: 220 Ships200 at Arbor20 at Shield Isles Far too low. 200 war galleys of Redwyne alone. We know that Oldtown has war galleys of it's own, and the Shield Islands had ~50 longships to defend those 4 islands. The rest of the Reach's coast should have plenty more, and likely like Jason Mallister's division: 3:1 Longship to War Galley ratio for coastal defence.Dragonstone: 150 Ships135 at Dragonstone15 at Claw Isle Contrary to popular beliefe, Dragonstone and it's bannerlords to not employ a massive fleet. Stannis had roughly half of the Royal Fleet with him, as well as commandeered trade ships (~70), pirate ships (30) and sellsails (~40) he had hired specifically for the coming war. When counting war galleys, House Velaryon has 4 , Sunglass 3, Bar Emmon 1, Celtigar 1. Dragonstone had no fleet after a storm destroyed the Royal Fleet. Stannis took ships he had built at Storm's End to take the island. As master of ships, Stannis had no need to build more ships. Dragonstone's navy is ~10 ships, even if we include Fury as Stannis' own ship.Westerlands: 105 Ships55 at Lannisport25 at Fair Isle10 at Banefort10 at Feastfires5 at Kayce Too high. Lannisport is said in an SSM to have 20-30 ships. The West likely hads ~50 ships total. They never needed more IIRC.Vale: 70 Ships60 at Gulltown10 at the Sisters Seems ok. No real input. Perhaps closer to the Westerlands' 50.Crownlands: 65 Ships65 at King's Landing 100 ships of the Royal Navy. 20-30 likely along the coast. No need for more with the Royal Fleet's patrols in the area.Stormlands: 50 Ships20 at Rainhouse20 at Evenfall House10 at Storms End Seems ok.Dorne: 40 Ships30 at Sunspear5 at Ghaston Grey5 at Starfall Not likely even that, considering that the Dornish coast is considered problematic for ships. 20-30 seems reasonable.North: 30 Ships27 at White Harbor3 at Bear Island Bear Isle has no ships. Mormont used fishing boats to attack the Ironborn. Manderly had no war galleys before the books, and has ~50 now.Riverlands: 25 Ships15 at Seaguard10 at Maidenpool Seagard is said specifically to have 6 longships and 2 war galleys. Maidenpool likely has the same. A total fleet of 20 if we include longships, but no real fleet for a naval battle against any other navy. Westeros Levies/Military The Reach The Levies of the Reach: 100,000 - 72,000 Infantry, 28,000 Cavalry At Renly's host of 90,000 men, the Reach was a good 60-70,000 of those. Not the full might of the Reach as houses like Hightower and Redwyne were not present yet. A total army of 100,000 is possible, and if keeping with GRRM's 3:1 ratio of foot to cavalry, seems about right. The Westerlands The Levies of the Westerlands: 62,000 - 46,000 Infantry, 16,000 Cavalry 45,000 as of AGOT, including sellswords and fresh recruits from Lannisport, and the Lannisport city guard. Inluding troops left behind for garrison, seems likely that the west has 50-60,000 men.The RiverlandsThe Levies of the Riverlands: 45,000 - 40,500 Infantry, 4,500 CavalryWould be logical considering the size, but Renly guestimates that including Robb's army that marched south, they have 40,000 men together with the Riverlords, giving them ~20,000 men. The Freys controling an area nearly a quarter of the Riverlands and boasting 4,000 men, also makes the 20,000 claim likely.The StormlandsThe Levies of the Stormlands: 41,000 - 35,500 Infantry, 5,500 CavalrySeems rather high, but plausible enough.The ValeThe Levies of the Vale: 41,000- 35,500 Infantry, 5,500 CavalrySeems ok.The NorthThe Levies of the North: 40,000 - 30,000 Infantry, 10,000 Cavalry18,000 men marched south. Manderly is the wild card here with an unknown host. ~4,000 returned. Another ~3,500 men for the Boltons for ~7,500 men at Winterfell, another 2,000 men ouside of Winterfell that Ramsay attacks and mostly scatters, another 3,000 Clansmen, and another ~1,000 men from the western North who join Stannis later gives the North Around 30,000 men. A potential exists for more, but so far we see the North realy scraping the barrel for even this much. Note, I don't include the men Manderly had for the fleet, since most are non-combatants.DorneThe Levies of Dorne: 29,000 - 24,000 Infantry, 5,000 CavalrySeems ok.The Iron IslesThe Levies of the Iron Islands: 25,000 - 24,800 Infantry, 200 CavalrySeems ok.The CrownlandsThe Levies of the Crownlands: Crownlands: 22,300 - 19,300 Infantry, 3,000 CavalrySeems high. Despite the large area and population, poor show of force during the WOT5K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 double post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 triple post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 The North probably has more ships and the Manderlys more men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle Pup From Astapor Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Where did you get the numbers from? He's trying to do an educated guess for role play purposes and asking for help. He/she speculated them. The northern fanboys are going to come for him/her as well, seeing as the North is put 20,000 below the West. Sacrebleu! Yep, I think overall number is ok-ish, although probably a bit on the small side. However, I doubt Bear island or the Neck can bring that many men (not to mention Neck folk aren't great for open battles). On the other hand, I think Karhold, Umber and White Harbor numbers are probably quite understated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 But how ca you make an educated guess for the strenght of the Eyrie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBlackfyre Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 The north has to have more than The stormlands and the vale though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 A lot of the specific house numbers seem way off to me. Tarth raising 8500 seems way to high. The sisters being able to raise the same amount of infantry as Whiteharbour makes no sense. You also put the Northern clans at 1100 when Jon tells Stannis there are at least 2000 men there perhaps as high as 3000, and that's after Rob called his banners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 More than the Stormlands? Yes. More than the Vale? No. The Vale, the Riverlands and the North are all in the same area when it comes to troop numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toos Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I doubt that Golden Tooth could raise more levies than Lannisters. Stormlands should be behind Riverlands, Vale and North. Lannisport's fleet is too big. 20-30 ships according GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Not to go into the detail just yet, but irrespective of the numbers we've seen in action thus far, Martin himself has confirmed that the North has more men than the Stormlands, and about the same number as the Vale. And we know from Doran that Dorne has fewer men than even the Stormlands. So at the very least, the ranking of mainland kingdoms should be: 4/5. North/Vale6. Stormlands7.Dorne8. Iron Isles9. Crownlands However, since the North and the Vale were never explicitly compared to the Riverlands and Westerlands, we don't know how these 4 kingdoms stack up to one another. The West certainly has the ability to marshall a large force very quickly - due to their wealth and infrastructure obviously - but that does not really tell us how their overall strength compares to that of the Vale, Riverlands and North. Furthermore, in the case of the North, it is highly likely that, much more so than in any of the other kingdoms, there is a large disparity between the maximum sized force they can gather in one place, and the cumulative number of troops they can raise in successive hosts. This is due to the logistical difficulties they experience in marching their troops across great distances just to get to a foreign battlefield, as well as the challenge they face in keeping and feeding a large host gathered together in one place for any length of time. In other words, even if the North can raise 45,000 men, they are unlikely to be able to march that number off into the Riverlands at any one time. But a series of 15,000-20,000 strong hosts, that they can achieve. Torhenn Stark probably pushed the absolute limit of northern logistics when gathering 30,000 troops together in one massive host, but that does not mean that this tapped the entire strength of the North. Even though he probably exceeded by 50% the standard northern host size that can be marched effectively onto a foreign battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 The west is second only to the reach. The Riverlands might be more or equally powerful as the North and the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Mostly, it's BS. Especially the details. The west is second only to the reach. The Riverlands might be more or equally powerful as the North and the Vale.Meh, maybe if you are talking quality. Otherwise, it's about the same level as the Riverlands or the Vale, maybe less. 45,000 was stretching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 But how ca you make an educated guess for the strenght of the Eyrie? As iirc Lf said that the Lords declarent could raise 20000 swords. That's 6 lords and ladies. There's a whole load of houses not in that group. Hence a reasonable guesstimate can be made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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