I cant stand the Ironborn

[Sword of the Morgan]

The whole society is flawed and they just keep breeding these people who want to conquer lands that they don't really desire anyway. They think rape is a thing to be celebrated, as is stealing people. Why can't they just keep to themselves on their islands, worship the sea, go fishing and live a good life? I just dislike their culture so much.

[Bryanfury]

Inb4 someone equates Tywins war crimes to the Old Way as if it can be justified at all

[Florina Laufeyson]

The Ironborn are like a botched Hollywood viking society that worships Cthulhu wearing Odin's trousers. Asha seems to be the only one of them that thinks like a rational human being. The rest are hideously cartoonish. Even the Reader is just cartoonishly passive. Victarion is one of the stupidest characters ever, but he is hilarious. I feel like they could have been written to be a lot less cartoonish, and thus be better overall. Oh well. At least Asha exists. Her whole deal at the Thing Kingsmoot was basically actual viking mentality. "Lets go get new lands to feed our people and junk. I offer food and plenty." Its that GRRM had the Ironborn be pretty much "...OOooo shiny!" that they elect Euron instead.

Oh well...

[larastone]

I agree, they're absolutely awful. I occasionally enjoy Euron in the way that I enjoy the Joker but he, Aeron and Victarion (especially Victarion) just aren't on par with the rest of the characters (kind of like the Sandsnakes too tbh). and Balon was a boring POS hag.

I actually don't blame D&D for cutting Victarion and Euron at all because those two characters would just stick out like a sore thumb on TV, even more so than they did in the books.

I love Theon and Asha but yeah that culture is just boring and gross and isn't even dark in a compelling way (like the Lannisters and Targaryens are IMO). Giving Victarion and Aeron a POV was a mistake IMO.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I do kind of like Asha, and I think Theon and Euron are good characters.

[Northernmonkey]

The Ironborn as a people are fairly crude and unlikeable but I think the Greyjoys are the best family in the series. Euron, Vic, Asha, Aeron, Theon - I love them all (though not Balon).

[Monctonvike]

I do kind of like Asha, and I think Theon and Euron are good characters.

:agree:

I also love viking Culture and the fact that they are loosely based on them. With that being said they really leave a lot to be desired. The other thing I find that with the Iron Islands and Dorne coming into the series so much later its harder to be as attached to them. I find for example the sand snakes are far less complex than many of the other characters. They maybe in complex situation, but they are a bit static. Of course many other characters started off in the series and we have grown with them. Since we still have two more books perhaps they will all grow on me as well.

[Dofs]

Apart from Rodrik Harlaw, the smartest and arguably one of the bravest Ironborn, they can just all drown for all I care. Even Asha, although, it's more like I don't care about than hate her.

[INCBlackbird]

I love the ironborn, Theon is my fav so i’m obviously biased (but then again everyone is biased) and you’re right they are flawed but so are all the cultures in westeros, some are more violent then others, the ironborn culture is an example of the more violent ones but there is a very good reason for that. And the reason is not that the ironborn are “dumb” or “more violent by nature” then the other cultures in westeros. It all starts with the fact that the iron islands have poor soil, not good for sowing, which means that the ironborn can’t grow enough food to feed their people, there’s fish of course but people can’t live on fish alone, and as said in the world of ice and fire book they were soon out of wood to build ships as well so they had to go steal this stuff. And the point is that people are proud, so they wouldn’t say “we can’t sow” no they say “we do not sow” a culture is developed where they make themselves believe that they have the right to steal this stuff that there is somehow honor in it, rather than saying “we’re not able to feed our own people” they want to look strong, but they also have to look strong because if they look weak everyone will walk all over them. It’s a form of cultural protection if you will. And culture is formed by people and then people are formed by culture and it keeps developing. There’s also the fact that since they’re on an island they’re very secluded from the rest of westeros and that way, their culture develops uninfluenced by other cultures and this new religion has a chance to rise (a religion that completely supports this culture and makes them feel even more pridefull) I even think that the whole “the drowned god created us as superior beings” is a form of cultural overcompensation for the whole “we can’t even feed our people properly”

So yeah they were raised to be assholes but then there are also some really good things in their culture that I appreciate:

1. They respect people who would not be respected on the mainland on the account of being ironborn:
   

ironborn women: they can be a captain of their own ship, and be shown respect despite their gender (see asha), they are more sexually free then they are in other places in westeros (again see asha), they can even technically rule the iron islands. Which is not to say that this would happen (and again, see asha) there is of course still a lot of sexism, but Asha is actually genuinely surprised at the lack of respect she receives on the mainland simply because she’s a woman. the point is that the ironborn value strength above all and when a woman show’s strength they’ll respect her more for it, rather than discourage it like they do on the mainland. They are still sexist in the sense that they do equate weakness with female and strength with male though but you know it’s something.

Fishermen: they are considered kings on their own ship, and they are very much respected for that they do, despite being lowborn.

1. The kingsmoot: gotta appreciate the only form of democracy we get in these books.
   

I get the idea that there is a lot less classism on the iron islands than in the rest of Westeros, everyone gets a voice, even when it comes to those captives. Thralls are not slaves, they owe service to their captors but their children are born free for example and they do not get separated, they also don’t get sold or anything like that. It’s still horrible but it’s not as barbaric as it seems on first sight.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The Ironborn are like a botched Hollywood viking society that worships Cthulhu wearing Odin's trousers. Asha seems to be the only one of them that thinks like a rational human being. The rest are hideously cartoonish. Even the Reader is just cartoonishly passive. Victarion is one of the stupidest characters ever, but he is hilarious. I feel like they could have been written to be a lot less cartoonish, and thus be better overall. Oh well. At least Asha exists. Her whole deal at the Thing Kingsmoot was basically actual viking mentality. "Lets go get new lands to feed our people and junk. I offer food and plenty." Its that GRRM had the Ironborn be pretty much "...OOooo shiny!" that they elect Euron instead.

Because societies have never chosen disastrous leaders based on charisma? Or started hopeless wars? Sexism isn't a real thing?

As for the Reader, what do you expect him to do? He supports Asha and openly challenges Euron, but there is only so much he can get away with. Preferring to keep his head doesn't make him cartoonish.

The Ironborn have had plenty of leaders, like Asha, who rejected the Old Way. Balon's father was one, as were many of the Hoare Kings

[Ramsay Gimp]

Giving Victarion and Aeron a POV was a mistake IMO.

While I like the Ironborn, this is definitely true. Asha and Theon were enough

[Hangover of the Morning]

I have to agree. I like Theon (a lot), Asha in ACoK (not so much once she became a POV) and the Harlaws but that's about it. I thought that the Ironborn were way more interesting before we actually got their chapters in AFfC. Hearing just stories about them and getting a semi-outsider point of view through Theon, IMO worked better. They felt like a force to be reckoned with and they actually had my grudging respect.

George always says that our fondness for certain side in the war or fractions can easily be changed by changing the POV from the supposed heroes to the villains. Getting a full insight into the IB culture actually made me feel much less sympathy to their way of life. If George wanted us to connect with them, he should have created more likeable characters than Aeron and Victarion (or Euron for that matter) and actually gave them something interesting to do. Also from afar, they felt really threatening and scary. Now that I know what kind of morons they are, I don't really take them seriously.

[King Tommen Baratheon]

I love the ironborn, Theon is my fav so i’m obviously biased (but then again everyone is biased) and you’re right they are flawed but so are all the cultures in westeros, some are more violent then others, the ironborn culture is an example of the more violent ones but there is a very good reason for that. And the reason is not that the ironborn are “dumb” or “more violent by nature” then the other cultures in westeros. It all starts with the fact that the iron islands have poor soil, not good for sowing, which means that the ironborn can’t grow enough food to feed their people, there’s fish of course but people can’t live on fish alone, and as said in the world of ice and fire book they were soon out of wood to build ships as well so they had to go steal this stuff. And the point is that people are proud, so they wouldn’t say “we can’t sow” no they say “we do not sow” a culture is developed where they make themselves believe that they have the right to steal this stuff that there is somehow honor in it, rather than saying “we’re not able to feed our own people” they want to look strong, but they also have to look strong because if they look weak everyone will walk all over them. It’s a form of cultural protection if you will. And culture is formed by people and then people are formed by culture and it keeps developing. There’s also the fact that since they’re on an island they’re very secluded from the rest of westeros and that way, their culture develops uninfluenced by other cultures and this new religion has a chance to rise (a religion that completely supports this culture and makes them feel even more pridefull) I even think that the whole “the drowned god created us as superior beings” is a form of cultural overcompensation for the whole “we can’t even feed our people properly”

So yeah they were raised to be assholes but then there are also some really good things in their culture that I appreciate:

1. They respect people who would not be respected on the mainland on the account of being ironborn:

ironborn women: they can be a captain of their own ship, and be shown respect despite their gender (see asha), they are more sexually free then they are in other places in westeros (again see asha), they can even technically rule the iron islands. Which is not to say that this would happen (and again, see asha) there is of course still a lot of sexism, but Asha is actually genuinely surprised at the lack of respect she receives on the mainland simply because she’s a woman. the point is that the ironborn value strength above all and when a woman show’s strength they’ll respect her more for it, rather than discourage it like they do on the mainland. They are still sexist in the sense that they do equate weakness with female and strength with male though but you know it’s something.

Fishermen: they are considered kings on their own ship, and they are very much respected for that they do, despite being lowborn.

1. The kingsmoot: gotta appreciate the only form of democracy we get in these books.

I get the idea that there is a lot less classism on the iron islands than in the rest of Westeros, everyone gets a voice, even when it comes to those captives. Thralls are not slaves, they owe service to their captors but their children are born free for example and they do not get separated, they also don’t get sold or anything like that. It’s still horrible but it’s not as barbaric as it seems on first sight.

:agree:

Despite being considered one of the more "barbaric" cultures, they actually are quite progressive.

[Hangover of the Morning]

The kingsmoot: gotta appreciate the only form of democracy we get in these books.

I get the idea that there is a lot less classism on the iron islands than in the rest of Westeros, everyone gets a voice, even when it comes to those captives. Thralls are not slaves, they owe service to their captors but their children are born free for example and they do not get separated, they also don’t get sold or anything like that. It’s still horrible but it’s not as barbaric as it seems on first sight.

The IB follow succession laws like anybody else in Westeros. The last Kingsmoot was held several thousands of year ago, so what we have witnessed was an incredibly rare one of a kind event.

The Wildlings or even the Dothraki are more democratic cultures.

[INCBlackbird]

The IB follow succession laws like anybody else in Westeros. The last Kingsmoot was held several thousands of year ago, so what we have witnessed was an incredibly rare one of a kind event.

The Wildlings or even the Dothraki are more democratic cultures.

yes, indeed they had kingsmoots looooooong before the story even started. and well the wildlings and the dothraki are very different cultures. I wasn't thinking about them, I should have probably said the only form of democracy out of the houses in westeros or something along those lines.

[Hueylouis]

Victarions chapters were fun to read imo. The damphairs weren't the best. I definitely think victarion will fall in the ocean with his armor on and die.

[Warrewal Halfaxe]

I never understood why people hate the Ironborn so much, but are all for 'kool' pirates.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The interesting bit with the Ironborn, is their thrall culture. Thats not actually too far out from the old Norse way of life.

So yeah they were raised to be assholes but then there are also some really good things in their culture that I appreciate:

1. They respect people who would not be respected on the mainland on the account of being ironborn:
   

ironborn women: they can be a captain of their own ship, and be shown respect despite their gender (see asha), they are more sexually free then they are in other places in westeros (again see asha), they can even technically rule the iron islands. Which is not to say that this would happen (and again, see asha) there is of course still a lot of sexism, but Asha is actually genuinely surprised at the lack of respect she receives on the mainland simply because she’s a woman. the point is that the ironborn value strength above all and when a woman show’s strength they’ll respect her more for it, rather than discourage it like they do on the mainland. They are still sexist in the sense that they do equate weakness with female and strength with male though but you know it’s something.

Fishermen: they are considered kings on their own ship, and they are very much respected for that they do, despite being lowborn.

1. The kingsmoot: gotta appreciate the only form of democracy we get in these books.
   

I get the idea that there is a lot less classism on the iron islands than in the rest of Westeros, everyone gets a voice, even when it comes to those captives. Thralls are not slaves, they owe service to their captors but their children are born free for example and they do not get separated, they also don’t get sold or anything like that. It’s still horrible but it’s not as barbaric as it seems on first sight.

Again, theres the old Norse model. Ironborn value strength above all else, so they would respect Asha. She whomps ass with an axe and goes raiding on her own ship. Shieldmaidens were a thing in old Scandinavia despite what people would have you think. So kicking ass as a woman was appreciated. The kingsmoot is a Thing. Their infrequency, however, is cause for some pause. :dunno: (but at least it happens)

As for thralls, just like in the old Norse days, they can earn their freedom.

Because societies have never chosen disastrous leaders based on charisma? Or started hopeless wars? Sexism isn't a real thing?

As for the Reader, what do you expect him to do? He supports Asha and openly challenges Euron, but there is only so much he can get away with. Preferring to keep his head doesn't make him cartoonish.

The Ironborn have had plenty of leaders, like Asha, who rejected the Old Way. Balon's father was one, as were many of the Hoare Kings

Having only one character in a culture, possess something resembling common sense is kind of a bad way of portraying a culture. The Reader is basically a more inactive Doran and thats kinda saying something. Asha is literally the only character out of that whole lot who thinks rationally. Theon isnt exactly in strong possession of rational thought, even prior to the Reeking. Aeron is basically a gothi, so naturally hes very...religiously biased. Old Way or bust with him.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Victarions chapters were fun to read imo. The damphairs weren't the best. I definitely think victarion will fall in the ocean with his armor on and die.

Yeah, I think he is basically Quentyn, i.e. an overblown prologue character.

[Trickrs]

Well... the Holy Roman Emperor was elected too, the "empire" was hardly democratic though.