Boarders writing a Novel Part 12.

[Andrew Gilfellon]

In before someone locks. What do people think of third person present tense ala City of Stairs or Bleak House? I'm writing a fantasy novel set in a secondary world early 20th century and it's about a detective...I've mentioned it before. Now I have in mind to write the first character's POV in third present and the second POV in 1st person. This is because I want there to be confusion between whether or not the 1st POV is corrupt while having a sense of urgency as he tries to solve a murder before his department is closed down as a 'failed experiment.'

[The Marquis de Leech]

Third person present gets a bit intense after a while. I'd advise it in short bursts, not prolonged passages.

(At least you're not doing second person....).

[SpaceChampion]

I think certain types of fiction have less need to see inside the heads of its characters. A straightforward adventure where it is just traveling and doing one physical thing after another, or learning information, gathering data points, witnessing events, etc. has little need for it. But add in a character whose moral choices, dilemmas or emotional development is key to the progress of the story, then there is a need to see in his/her head. A mystery story determining what is going on there is little need, so we get Dr. Watson as a mere sidekick to Sherlock Holmes, and Watson has no emotional development.

Too many people are trying to break into publishing writing multiple viewpoints, when their story doesn't even call for it, just because it works for GRRM's ASOIAF.

Third person present seems like something that would work best in a visceral, moody adventure / mystery, where the person doesn't have a lot of time to reflect on feelings.

[Magnar of Skagos]

Third person present gets a bit intense after a while. I'd advise it in short bursts, not prolonged passages.

(At least you're not doing second person....).

I am actually writing a 12 book paranormal urban fantasy romance series in 2nd person future tense.

[The_BlauerDragon]

I am actually writing a 12 book paranormal urban fantasy romance series in 2nd person future tense.

Why is it that reading your post gave me an instant migraine?

[Magnar of Skagos]

Why is it that reading your post gave me an instant migraine?

The same way that writing it gave me one as well :lmao:

[Kyoshi]

In before someone locks. What do people think of third person present tense ala City of Stairs or Bleak House? I'm writing a fantasy novel set in a secondary world early 20th century and it's about a detective...I've mentioned it before. Now I have in mind to write the first character's POV in third present and the second POV in 1st person. This is because I want there to be confusion between whether or not the 1st POV is corrupt while having a sense of urgency as he tries to solve a murder before his department is closed down as a 'failed experiment.'

Changing the tense and narrative perspective can be quite tricky. I tried reading The Name of the Wind, which came highly recommended. But there were too many times when I didn't know who was narrating and whether or not the change was significant. All I knew is that I was annoyed at the author and the book. It became too jarring to the point where I put the book down in Chapter 6 or something like that. But that's just my personal thing.

[Magnar of Skagos]

In before someone locks. What do people think of third person present tense ala City of Stairs or Bleak House? I'm writing a fantasy novel set in a secondary world early 20th century and it's about a detective...I've mentioned it before. Now I have in mind to write the first character's POV in third present and the second POV in 1st person. This is because I want there to be confusion between whether or not the 1st POV is corrupt while having a sense of urgency as he tries to solve a murder before his department is closed down as a 'failed experiment.'

Personally, third-person present tense really distracts me. I prefer past-tense prose, be it 3rd or 1st person.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Personally, third-person present tense really distracts me. I prefer past-tense prose, be it 3rd or 1st person.

Agreed. Whenever I read something that is present tense, I cannot help but think "It puts the lotion in the basket." or "Gives it to us raw, an Wigglin." Then I get really distracted because everything becomes a Buckskin Bill and/or Gollum caricature parody in my head... To the point where those two voices (and a few other cameos) start taking turns narrating the book and making fun of it.

[Neumond]

As Starkess said, gender swapping is an amazing tool:

Do you know BSG?

There are two series. One is the 80s version where Starbuck and Boomer were male. The other is the new version, where Starbuck and Boomer were female (Kara Thrace).

The writers decided to make Starbuck female, because they felt another male Bad-Ass is just too cliche.

Fans rioted when this was announced. Starbuck was a fan favorite in the first series and they feared a female Starbuck would just destroy the character.

Kara turned out to be one of the fan favorites of the show. She was just as Bad-Ass as her male "ancestor" but she had an emotional depth and a human feel to her that the first one just lacked.

I really recommend watching the show, but not for Boomer or Starbuck. Watch out for president Roslin. The best female leader I´ve ever came across in tv.

These female characters have one thing in common, they have as many problems and strengths as their male counterparts, because they are written as characters.

It actually felt to me like they wrote their characters in pairs. A female and a male character seem to mirror each other on the show. And neither is weaker or stronger than the other:

Starbuck/Apollo; Adama/Roslin; (I won´t go further into it because of spoilers. But it´s really interesting...)

There is something to learn from this show for writers who aren´t able (or feel like they aren´t able) to write females. You will be amazed how good gender swapping works, because in the end we are all human beings. And it will teach you, that women are people, too.

The downside is: If it doesn´t work, chances are your male characters are lacking, too. Because they are people as well. The world doesn´t need another cliche Bad-Ass guy with no emotions... (In german we say "paper-guy" to this kind of character. It means he is lacking the dimensions of a real guy, as paper has just two dimensions...)

Another recommendation:

Dune, this book is from the sixties and it has kick-ass females in it.

Dune was written in a strange time.

The fifties were one of the crudest anti-feminist times you could think of. In the twenties women started working and getting more rights. After the war, society was so conservative it defies believe. The ideal woman was a dumb, obedient, smiling, birthing and nanny robot...

(I remember a film where a woman drove a small boat in a completely calm and warm ocean, fifty meters from the beach. The men on the beach got an heart attack, because this was soooo dangerous. Obviously she fell off while attempting to wink back (she was too dumb to get, that the men were trying to warn her). And obviously the man on the beach had to jump into the water. Because she couldn´t swim fifty meters. Mind you, she was a healthy woman in her prime... But that equals dumb and weak. :lmao: )

In the sixties people began to realize once again, that women are people, too.

And you can see that mind-set in Herberts books, as those women start out in positions that are official beneath their male counterparts. But the author made his females into strong characters.

At the end you come to the conclusion that many of the male characters were just plot devices.

While the females each had an agenda and story of their own. And they were far from perfect. Alia is one of my all-time favorite characters because of her weaknesses. The motif of hidden and visible female power is very strong throughout all the books.

Eddard Stark wasn´t the first "hero-father-guy" to kick the bucket... The hero-father-guy in Dune was pretty generic. But his wife was the one to kick off the story and she remained a decision-making driving force throughout. And she made decisions that weren´t the obvious choice.

On a sidenote:

I guess you know asoiaf? ;) There are great females, too.

But I personally never warmed up to Brienne. She never felt like a real character to me. But that might be very personal...

[The_BlauerDragon]

Wow, Thanks! You reminded me of some characters that I'd honestly forgotten about... And brought forth some great examples all around. That, I think, was what I was driving at in my earlier question. I didn't want to end up with a flat, cliche, dumb, and weak character. I am planning out a mixed cast of male and female characters, each with their own agendas (hopes, dreams, strengths, flaws, etc.) ...and I guess I was just feeling a little gun shy about trying to get the female side of it right. I see now that I was simply over thinking it.