Boarders writing a Novel Part 12.

[Zoë Sumra]

Hey, I'm (relatively) new here - what is the purpose of this thread exactly? Just writers posting about their daily efforts?

Sounds awesome!

Daily/monthly efforts if desired (not much for me right now, for example, as I'm busy writing vignettes towards an experimental novel on one hand and arguing about past participles with my editor on the other), advice when we wish, ranting space if needed, good news space if there is any. Welcome inside: we only bite if requested.

[Stan Man]

Daily/monthly efforts if desired (not much for me right now, for example, as I'm busy writing vignettes towards an experimental novel on one hand and arguing about past participles with my editor on the other), advice when we wish, ranting space if needed, good news space if there is any. Welcome inside: we only bite if requested.

Thanks for the welcome! By the way, I love your signature. Robert Frost is incredible; my favorite poem by him is "Into My Own." I walk along the Robert Frost trail in Massachusetts quite often.

[EruditeFool]

Been done with my second book for about a month now (the beta-readers are picking it apart). It's an odd feeling to not feel the urgent need to write something.

Thankfully, I've snapped myself out of it with a book entirely unlike the previous two (from fantasy to pirate adventure). Writing in a new world and changing styles is fun and keeps you from getting bogged down.

[Stan Man]

I write both for work and pleasure - I currently have less than two weeks to finish a 70,000 word novel. Great fun...

[TrackerNeil]

Anyone who's planning to publish--indie or tradpub--should read this. The takeaway is that the recipe for commercial success with a book is:

GREAT BOOK + HARD WORK + TIME + LUCK.

I'd argue that the first isn't even necessary (Twilight, I am looking in your direction), but whatever.

[Callan S.]

To me it's curious but it seems in such a saturated market the thing to aim for is a kind of social triage - don't write pure escapist fantasy, write something that actually nails some real life issues (amongst the escapist fantasy). Why? Because you just can't get into this stupid market that's both saturated and being manipulated by the top distributors to keep just a few shining names around. So better to write and distributate as best you can to try and change social issues - better to fail as a career author but fought problematic social issues than to have suceeded massively but turned your back on the world (Twilight, I'm looking at you). Better to die on your feet than live on your knees in hope of the lottery chance (read: more likely to be struck by lightning chance) break out success.

[TrackerNeil]

So better to write and distributate as best you can to try and change social issues - better to fail as a career author but fought problematic social issues than to have suceeded massively but turned your back on the world (Twilight, I'm looking at you). Better to die on your feet than live on your knees in hope of the lottery chance (read: more likely to be struck by lightning chance) break out success.

I'll bet most people who ever set out to get into the world of publishing had the honest intention of producing the best they could, but the industry has a different incentive; namely, to sell books. I remember working with my agent (back when I had one), and it was a constant push to make my novel more like the commercially successful ones. My coauthor and I tried hard to accommodate her ever-lengthening list of demands while keeping true to what we'd conceived, but there came a point when it was no longer possible to do both. Had we surrendered, maybe our book would have been more commercially successful; there's no way to know for sure. I know we would have gotten more respect as tradpubs than as indies, that's for sure, but I can't say we would have produced a stronger novel. We resisted the pull towards genericism (if that's a word) but many others wouldn't, and many of those others have probably made more money than we have.

[A Highborn Maid]

I'll bet most people who ever set out to get into the world of publishing had the honest intention of producing the best they could, but the industry has a different incentive; namely, to sell books. I remember working with my agent (back when I had one), and it was a constant push to make my novel more like the commercially successful ones. My coauthor and I tried hard to accommodate her ever-lengthening list of demands while keeping true to what we'd conceived, but there came a point when it was no longer possible to do both. Had we surrendered, maybe our book would have been more commercially successful; there's no way to know for sure. I know we would have gotten more respect as tradpubs than as indies, that's for sure, but I can't say we would have produced a stronger novel. We resisted the pull towards genericism (if that's a word) but many others wouldn't, and many of those others have probably made more money than we have.

Sounds rough. Was your literary agent an established/successful one? If she pressured you to drastically overhaul your novel, I wonder why she took you on in the first place? I've never had an agent, so I don't know much about how they work.

The market for fiction is tough...I know I'm not quitting my job at McDonalds anytime soon! ;)

[The_BlauerDragon]

I doubt that anything I write will ever be read by more than a handful of friends, family members, fellow enthusiasts, and generous (or otherwise obliged) strangers. I'd still like to be able to sell out just enough to get recognition from those people. If it meant the remote possibility of some small bit of actual commercial success... I'd not only kill a few of my darlings, I'd primp the rest of them up and put them to work on a street corner. That is just me though. Your mileage may vary.

[TrackerNeil]

Sounds rough. Was your literary agent an established/successful one? If she pressured you to drastically overhaul your novel, I wonder why she took you on in the first place? I've never had an agent, so I don't know much about how they work.

Hey, thanks. Rather than bog down the thread in a big story, you can read the whole sordid tale on my blog, if you like. I dish the dirt and name names!

Oh, and yes, I wonder as well. :)

[Starkess]

I'm about 50k into a draft of a new manuscript and it is HORRIBLE. Urrrrrgh.

Also just about burned through my query list for my last novel. Time to lay it to rest with a good hatchet to the head, I think. Sigh.

[Seasick Shrimp]

I'm about 50k into a draft of a new manuscript and it is HORRIBLE. Urrrrrgh.

Also just about burned through my query list for my last novel. Time to lay it to rest with a good hatchet to the head, I think. Sigh.

Starkess, I read a bit on your blog and I'm sensing that you're very sad that you're works are not getting picked up. The thing that works for me to keep my joy for writing up is to just see it as just a fun hobby, with no expectations whatsoever. Of course I want to be picked up by a publisher when my work is done more than anything in the world haha, but if not then I'm still going to see it as something good cause I had a fun time doing it.

On the other hand, I'm only halfway through my very first novel, and you have been doing this for a long time and are already on your 7th novel, so what do I know about what you're going through? Nothing, of course, just thought that I would try to give some uplifting words on how I go along with my writing. Thinking of it as just a fun hobby really keeps the pressure off of me. But then again, ask me when I've gotten six novels rejected, I'll probably too will feel very frustrated then.

Anyway, keep the good work up! One day the breakthrough might come and then it will all be worth it! :) I know I've heard in some interview (in Swedish though) about authors writing like ten books before being published, but can't remember their name now hehe.

[Arthmail]

I took a break from fantasy. I have four novels done in the fantasy world, but going back to do very final edits for the first two was leaving me feeling a little stale.

So I'm just finishing my first science fiction. It's helped me to really get a handle on certain elements, such as information dumping and world reveals. It is cleaner and neater, meaning that when I return to my fantasy books I can take that and make them better. It's exciting.

So after this one is done (I have 5 chapters left so I hope by the middle of next week before I go to Iceland), I'm hoping to have my first 2 fantasies ready for sale by November.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Okay, so here is a question that someone here (particularly a female someone here) may be able to answer. I know that I want to have at least one strong female character in my book... I've actually started developing a concept for a duo of an escaped slave and a young girl that she reluctantly rescued during her own escape... and, being that I am not a woman, I am concerned that I will not be able to properly represent the female species. Without going into territory that is too chauvinist, at least not with full sincerity, I am too sane and logical to really connect with how such creatures think and act. Who are some authors that write women really well that I might be able to study in order to ensure that I do the best job of it that I can do. Anyone have a suggestion or three?

[The_BlauerDragon]

I'm afraid this might seem like the obvious answer, but I'd suggest Gillian Flynn if you're one of the twelve people who haven't read her since Gone Girl came out. In particular the female protagonists in Sharp Objects and Dark Places were really excellent to read. Gone girl was great too, but the protagonist there is a legit psychopath rather than a relatable female perspective, which it seems you're after. The other characters are all damaged in their own ways (functioning alcoholic, kleptomaniac, sex-worker turned con-artist), but it's these sort of effed up neurosis that made them all the more real and very compelling to read.

A Thousand Splendid Suns was also pretty fantastic.

I am, in point of fact, one of the twelve. I may have to take a look now though. Thanks for the suggestion. Real and relatable is indeed what I was after. Psychopaths I can relate to quite easily... In fact, I've dated enough of them to practically be one. Normal or normal trying to recover from damage is another story altogether. I tried to think of a man and take away reason and accountability, as Jack suggested, but all I ended up with was a hipster millennial.

[Starkess]

Okay, so here is a question that someone here (particularly a female someone here) may be able to answer. I know that I want to have at least one strong female character in my book... I've actually started developing a concept for a duo of an escaped slave and a young girl that she reluctantly rescued during her own escape... and, being that I am not a woman, I am concerned that I will not be able to properly represent the female species. Without going into territory that is too chauvinist, at least not with full sincerity, I am too sane and logical to really connect with how such creatures think and act. Who are some authors that write women really well that I might be able to study in order to ensure that I do the best job of it that I can do. Anyone have a suggestion or three?

We're not a separate species. The way to write women characters is to just write them as characters. Try doing some writing exercises were you genderswap previous characters you've written, or characters from other authors. Try not to call women "creatures". Baby steps and all.

And yes, try reading good authors who have multidimensional characters (of either gender). Robin Hobb's Liveship series has a lot of interesting characters. Check out Kameron Hurley's Mirror Empire for some crazy gender fun.

[The_BlauerDragon]

I was having a little fun with the language, but I really do see your point. I'll try it out and see how it goes, and continue the research as well. It just is not a variation that is currently present in any of my existing personalities, and that makes climbing into a female character's skin unfamiliar territory for me.

[Jerol]

We're not a separate species. The way to write women characters is to just write them as characters. Try doing some writing exercises were you genderswap previous characters you've written, or characters from other authors. Try not to call women "creatures". Baby steps and all.

And yes, try reading good authors who have multidimensional characters (of either gender). Robin Hobb's Liveship series has a lot of interesting characters. Check out Kameron Hurley's Mirror Empire for some crazy gender fun.

^This.^

It's odd. I'm a CIS straight middle-aged male yet I've been told by everyone in my small group of readers that I write great women characters. I think I huge part of that is that I apparently cannot think of them as anything other than characters. Especially characters with their own choices, mistakes, faults, and AGENCY. Do that and you're a step above a huge percentage of writers. And make absolutely sure that any descriptions of said female characters are not from the male gaze. No bounteous bosoms, no firm supple thighs, etc.

[TrackerNeil]

And make absolutely sure that any descriptions of said female characters are not from the male gaze. No bounteous bosoms, no firm supple thighs, etc.

Brent Weeks really, really, really need to read this.

[EruditeFool]

@The_BlauerDragon

If your character is an escaped slave, try to focus on that mind set first, and see if maybe the female part just sort of falls into place.

Absolutely! Since I am actually writing a novella where a female character starts out as a slave, here's a few points:

Put yourself in her shoes. Imagine what she fears could happen to her. If she ends up in a compromising position, focus on how she views it, not how you view it. If she is exposed do not describe her breasts, nipples, etc... but instead focus on her feeling of exposure and helplessness. Even if a male does not know what it is to have breasts, we can still empathize with helplessness at being at the mercy of others.