Ingelheim Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Exactly , why is this so hard for some people to believe? We've already explained it many times: VS are the most important things any Lord could have. Tywin Lannister, richest man in Westeros, could never buy one. Not even to poor Lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 That would have made more sense I agree. An explanation like that is sadly not given. Because it is not needed . There is nothing wrong with Jon getting Longclaw. If House Mormont wanted the sword so badly they never would have sent it to the wall. If they don't care about it, why do you guys care so much? House Mormont will be fine without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 We've already explained it many times: VS are the most important things any Lord could have. Tywin Lannister, richest man in Westeros, could never buy one. Not even to poor Lords. Operative word in bold. Buy. Until you guys realize that a family pawning off an heirloom for cash is not what's going on with Longclaw, you're going to keep not getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 We've already explained it many times: VS are the most important things any Lord could have. Tywin Lannister, richest man in Westeros, could never buy one. Not even to poor Lords. And I've stated before VS swords are not as important as House Mormonts honor . Jorah betrayed House Stark and only giving up something as precious as a VS sword can make up for that dishonor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm sorry, do you need GRRM to beat you upside the head to explain every little thing? Does EVERYTHING need to be explained in minute detail or risk being written off as "bad writing"? Well, everything that doesn't make sense otherwise. GRRM isn't a perfect writer. He's made some other mistakes as well because he hadn't fleshed out any minute little detail of his story and world. In a huge series like ASOIAF, that is to be expected. This one just has to do with Jon. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Operative word in bold. Buy. Until you guys realize that a family pawning off an heirloom for cash is not what's going on with Longclaw, you're going to keep not getting it. I realize it quite clearly. Still, I don't see any Mormont giving away a VS except they expected to get it back. So, to answer the OP: Jeor Mormon wasn't right to give Jon Longclaw, since it wasn't his. And then, if you are right, and House Mormont never expected to get the sword back, I'll call that bad writing. Nothing more. And I've stated before VS swords are not as important as House Mormonts honor . Jorah betrayed House Stark and only giving up something as precious as a VS sword can make up for that dishonor. Well, that's actually your opinion. I can think of 3859304638 ways of making up that dishonor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Is this really that different to the way the Corbrays or Daynes or what have you give away their swords to talented warriors with the understanding it'll return to the main branch upon their death? It is leaving the 'main' branch of the family, the fact that Jeor even has it at castle Black indicates that ownership of the sword has already been granted to him by his family, at least for his lifetime. While it's unusual I really don't think its ridiculous given Jon's action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Still, I don't see any Mormont giving away a VS except they expected to get it back. And now Jeor is dead, yet, no one's in a rush to go up and retrieve the sword. Well, that's actually your opinion. I can think of 3859304638 ways of making up that dishonor. But they didn't choose those 3859eleventy ways of making it up, they chose to send the sword to the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 And now Jeor is dead, yet, no one's in a rush to go up and retrieve the sword. Already answered that. If at the end you are right, and House Mormont never expected to get it back, I'd call that bad writing. It doesn't fit with what we know of VS, Jeor, and Maege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Is this really that different to the way the Corbrays or Daynes or what have you give away their swords to talented warriors with the understanding it'll return to the main branch upon their death? It is leaving the 'main' branch of the family, the fact that Jeor even has it at castle Black indicates that ownership of the sword has already been granted to him by his family, at least for his lifetime. While it's unusual I really don't think its ridiculous given Jon's action. You have missed out the real point of contention friend. No one minds Jeor having it, it's more like how long Jon retains ownership. Does he have to return it after Jeor's death? Probably not. Jorah's death? Would be the best way out of this conundrum, but not build-up. Does Jon get to keep it? Doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Already answered that. If at the end you are right, and House Mormont never expected to get it back, I'd call that bad writing. It doesn't fit with what we know of VS, Jeor, and Maege. Actually the only stuff about Valyrian steel you guys keep beating on about is the matter of SELLING it, as in, no one would SELL Valyrian steel to Tywin. Which, for like the tenth time, is not what is going on with Longclaw. It's a difference of interpretation, not "bad writing." You interpret the importance given to VS to mean that it's implausible for the Mormonts to permanently surrender Longclaw to the Wall. Some of us interpret the importance given to Valyrian steel to mean that atoning for Jorah's crimes and the family's dishonor is given that much more weight by sending something as valuable as Longclaw to the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 You have missed out the real point of contention friend. No one minds Jeor having it, it's more like how long Jon retains ownership. Does he have to return it after Jeor's death? Probably not. Jorah's death? Would be the best way out of this conundrum, but not build-up. Does Jon get to keep it? Doesn't make sense. I don't think I have, I think the natural assumption would be that it returns to the Mormont family after Jon's death. Jon doesn't have a family who could claim the sword and due to his vows and the organisation he belongs to can't sire any children to pass the sword on to. How is it difficult to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 And Jorah sold a couple of poachers. A capital offence, that's true, but seeing what we know of Westeros, Lords must have done much shittier things than that. And yet, Longclaw is the first Valyrian steel sword in the NW's long history to end up there? I don't buy it. The head of House Stark was coming to take the head of the Lord of Bear Island , that's a pretty big deal . House Mormont is fiercely proud of their honor and the fact that Jorah betrayed House Stark so badly and then ran from judgement has to be the worst thing that ever happened to the Mormonts. In our world honor does not mean much but in ASOIAF it's immensely important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Actually the only stuff about Valyrian steel you guys keep beating on about is the matter of SELLING it, as in, no one would SELL Valyrian steel to Tywin. Which, for like the tenth time, is not what is going on with Longclaw. Sure, I get they are not selling it. But giving it up away doesn't fit as well. Sure, they'd end it to the Wall. But they'd expect to get it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Already answered that. If at the end you are right, and House Mormont never expected to get it back, I'd call that bad writing. It doesn't fit with what we know of VS, Jeor, and Maege. Agreed. We'll just throw that in with the Astapori not having a failsafe in place in case of the Unsullied betrayal, Tyrion not going after LF after he returns to the city, the intention to put a five-year gap in place, etc. If you read the book once, it doesn't really matter. We just notice this because of rereads. I don't think I have, I think the natural assumption would be that it returns to the Mormont family after Jon's death. Jon doesn't have a family who could claim the sword and due to his vows and the organisation he belongs to can't sire any children to pass the sword on to. How is it difficult to understand? That's also problematic. Can Jon give it away? If Jeor had the right to bestow the sword on Jon was ownership forfitted to him? That doesn't make sense with what we know of the importance of VS swords. It's just a bit of bad writing, but nothing earth shattering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 If the Mormonts never expected to get it back, Jeor put it to terrible use. Better to sell Longclaw to Tywin, and use the proceeds (and goodwill between Casterly Rock and Castle Black) to build up the strength of Night's Watch. Basically, if Jon hadn't come along, and ignoring the objection about Maege acting out of character, what was Jeor going to do with it in a "the sword takes the black" situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 You have missed out the real point of contention friend. No one minds Jeor having it, it's more like how long Jon retains ownership. Does he have to return it after Jeor's death? Probably not. Jorah's death? Would be the best way out of this conundrum, but not build-up. Does Jon get to keep it? Doesn't make sense. Jon does not own the sword nobody on the Wall owns anything , the sword is the possession of the Nights Watch . when he dies the next Lord Commander decides what to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 If the Mormonts never expected to get it back, Jeor put it to terrible use. Better to sell Longclaw to Tywin, and use the proceeds (and goodwill between Casterly Rock and Castle Black) to build up the strength of Night's Watch. Basically, if Jon hadn't come along, and ignoring the objection about Maege acting out of character, what was Jeor going to do with it in a "the sword takes the black" situation? I think cupboard decoration is far more important than gold to the NW. After all, Jon does nothing but wonder about interior design throughout ADWD. Jon does not own the sword nobody on the Wall owns anything , the sword is the possession of the Nights Watch . when he dies the next Lord Commander decides what to do with it. Tell me BT, if Jeor croaks and Thorne gets elected to lead the NW can he just tell Jon to fuck off and give the sword to Janos Slynt? Because if it is truly NW property, he could have done that. I don't think anything about Jeor giving LC to Jon implies that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cladinator Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Longclaw was Mormont's sword. He can do whatever he wants with it. His son brought dishonor to his family and Jeor didn't think he was worthy of it. Jeor also understands that his fellow brothers of the Night's Watch are his family now. The steward that he expects to lead one day seems like a pretty worthy candidate to inherit the sword (in my opinion). EDIT: I forgot that Jorah left the sword before his exile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Agreed. We'll just throw that in with the Astapori not having a failsafe in place in case of the Unsullied betrayal, Tyrion not going after LF after he returns to the city, the intention to put a five-year gap in place, etc. If you read the book once, it doesn't really matter. We just notice this because of rereads. That's also problematic. Can Jon give it away? If Jeor had the right to bestow the sword on Jon was ownership forfitted to him? That doesn't make sense with what we know of the importance of VS swords. It's just a bit of bad writing, but nothing earth shattering. I really think your making an argument up out of nowhere. Jon hasn't shown any inclination to give up the sword nor is he likely to because of his respect for the Lord Commander who undoubtedly in my mind believed that it would be Jon's character to return the sword or make provision for it to be returned upon his death. It's an incredibly valuable reward but in my mind in no way disrespects his family. It seems to me that your not taking into account the personalities of the characters of whom the 'argument' revolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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