Clegane'sPup Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Already answered that. If at the end you are right, and House Mormont never expected to get it back, I'd call that bad writing. It doesn't fit with what we know of VS, Jeor, and Maege. Jeor left the sword for his son when he left for the wall. Jorah left the sword when he went into exile. Female Mormont sent sword to Jeor (LC). Jeor put the sword in a closet somewhere. Jon saves his life. Jeor gives sword to Jon. LC (Jeor) last wish to Sam is to ask Jorah to take the black. If Jorah takes the black, Jon will give the sword to him. Yes, the LC had a right to give Jon the sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cladinator Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think cupboard decoration is far more important than gold to the NW. After all, Jon does nothing but wonder about interior design throughout ADWD. If I remember correctly, gold (or lack thereof) becomes a major issue for Jon and the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 If I remember correctly, gold (or lack thereof) becomes a major issue for Jon and the Night's Watch. Sarcasm :p I put it sarcasm font after I posted it :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I really think your making an argument up out of nowhere. Jon hasn't shown any inclination to give up the sword nor is he likely to because of his respect for the Lord Commander who undoubtedly in my mind believed that it would be Jon's character to return the sword or make provision for it to be returned upon his death. It's an incredibly valuable reward but in my mind in no way disrespects his family. It seems to me that your not taking into account the personalities of the characters of whom the 'argument' revolves. Jeor would not give the sword away without taking his sister's family and his house into consideration. Putting that sword out of their reach for another fourty something years (or more if Jon lives longer) is more than a tad disrespectful to his family. And Jon so far has made no provision to return the sword upon his death. That's why it's all so iffy you see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cladinator Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Sarcasm :P I put it sarcasm font after I posted it :P Sometimes I'm as thick as a castle wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think cupboard decoration is far more important than gold to the NW. After all, Jon does nothing but wonder about interior design throughout ADWD. Tell me BT, if Jeor croaks and Thorne gets elected to lead the NW can he just tell Jon to fuck off and give the sword to Janos Slynt? Because if it is truly NW property, he could have done that. I don't think anything about Jeor giving LC to Jon implies that. Yes he could . Jon owns nothing on the wall . the new Lord Commander could have taken it away and Jon would not be able to do anything about it. That's one of the reasons Mance left the wall. I'm sure that if a honorable man were elected he would have honored Jeor's wish for Jon to have it but Thorne would have probably have taken it out of spite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Jeor would not give the sword away without taking his sister's family and his house into consideration. Putting that sword out of their reach for another fourty something years (or more if Jon lives longer) is more than a tad disrespectful to his family. And Jon so far has made no provision to return the sword upon his death. That's why it's all so iffy you see? But why not? Maege could have put the sword away for years - but she didn't. I guess she just felt disgusted because it reminded her (and her family) of Jorah. Jeor got the sword, and put it away - he had nobody to send the sword to, so he kept it, but didn't want to see it - it reminded him of Jorah. Why didn't he sell it? Well, as it was stated above for quite a few times, nobody sells a VS sword. Neither did Jeor. But then again: What does a VS sword worth when tradition says you shouldn't sell it (therefore its value cannot be measured in money). A VS sword is just a sword. A very-very good sword, but still a sword. You either use it, or you keep it for someone who can use it, or you give it away, because nobody in your family wants to use it - as it is a current reminder of the biggest dishonor ever. I agree, most families in Westeros wouldn't care. The Mormonts are different. They care about stuff as their honor. Maege decided she didn't want it. However, she never felt that she has the right to give it away to just anybody - so she sent it to Jeor. And Jeor forgot about it, until he found it after the fire. If Jeor's intentions were that Jon should return it to House Mormont, he wouldn't changed the pommel. With that, Longclaw ceased to belong to House Mormont, and became the property of someone, whose personal sigil (even if unofficially) is a white direwolf. So now it belongs to Jon. He can give it away to whoever he wants. If he really dies at the end of ADWD (I know he won't), I think that whoever might be elected as next LC may get that sword. But not because that's the sword's fate, to be the LC's sword - but because Jon dies without any heirs, and he didn't have the time to give the sword away properly. However, I doubt, that anybody would think about sending Longclaw back to Bear Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Jeor would not give the sword away without taking his sister's family and his house into consideration. Putting that sword out of their reach for another fourty something years (or more if Jon lives longer) is more than a tad disrespectful to his family. And Jon so far has made no provision to return the sword upon his death. That's why it's all so iffy you see? If the sword was not supposed to be a donation to the Watch then why send it to the wall.?Marge knows her brother and that he probably would not want to carry around the sword because of the dishonor Jorah brought to it . Why not just keep it on Bear Island.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Yes he could . Jon owns nothing on the wall . the new Lord Commander could have taken it away and Jon would not be able to do anything about it. That's one of the reasons Mance left the wall. I'm sure that if a honorable man were elected he would have honored Jeor's wish for Jon to have it but Thorne would have probably have taken it out of spite. Where does that come from? We know that Waymar Royce joined the Watch and brought all his (black) clothes and special (black) stuff with him. And yet nobody thinks about taking all those fine clothes away from him. (IIRC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Where does that come from? We know that Waymar Royce joined the Watch and brought all his (black) clothes and special (black) stuff with him. And yet nobody thinks about taking all those fine clothes away from him. (IIRC) Certain people get special treatment but the Lords Commander could have taken his clothes away anytime he wanted to and when Waymar died and his body was found his stuff would have been distributed to his brothers not sent home to his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Sometimes I'm as thick as a castle wall.Obviously, Cladinator is another of Dunk's descendants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cladinator Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Obviously, Cladinator is another of Dunk's descendants. Also, Coldhands is my dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia H. Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Did Maege send the sword to Jeor with the implication that is should be returned to Bear Island at any given time? Did she send it as the family's atonement for what Jorah had done, perhaps because she knew Jeor wished Jorah returned to Westeros and took the black? We find neither of these explicitly stated in the text (except that Jeor did want Jorah to take the black). But the behaviour of the characters gives us some clue. How odd would it be to present someone with a valuable gift that has great symbolic significance when you know you owe that object to someone else? Would it be in character with Jeor? We know he loved his sister, therefore it is unlikely that he intentionally disregarded her wish in this respect. The new pommel is indication that Jeor meant Jon Snow to keep that sword. Why had Jeor not used the sword before? We know he specifically emphasized that the sword had been passed down from father to son in his family. For all intents and purposes, the sword meant Jorah to him, his only son (much as Needle meant "Jon Snow's smile" to Arya), and that is why he could neither part with it, nor look at it. (He had not been keeping the sword on display, he had hidden it from sight.) He tried not to think of it as he probably tried not to think of Jorah too much. Then, after the wight incident and the fire in the tower, he suddenly found it and saw that all that had remained of it was the blade. I imagine he got a sudden inspiration. The sword had to be used. There was someone he could pass it down to, a new "son" in his new family, who deserved it, even though he was not a Mormont. He may have interpreted the loss of the bear pommel as a sign perhaps from the gods, as Jon had interpreted the finding of the direwolf pups as a gift meant for the Starks. I, personally, see nothing improbable about that. Of course, you can call it bad writing, but that is totally subjective, and it simply means you don't like it. In my opinion, it is a psychologically understandable decision, and it is an important moment for both Jeor and Jon, with a lot more meaning than if it were just a sword in the stores of the NW (in which case it would be hard to explain why such a sword is not currently being used by anyone in the NW). After all, Jeor and Jon are in very similar positions at the moment: Jeor is grieving for a beloved son (his only son) who had brought dishonour on the family and had had to go to exile. Jon is grieving for a father (the only parent he had even known) who had been accused of treason and imprisoned. Both are tragedies in their respective families, both have to do with honour and love. Neither of them can help their loved ones. If anyone, Jeor can understand how Jon feels, and that is part of giving the gift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madara-sama Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 That was no random moment that Jon stepped into. And he isnt just some steward, nor is he some random recruit that is doing OK at the Wall. He is thought to be Ned Stark's son, and MOST likely, he at least has Stark blood. Mormont isnt stupid, he is a northman and a LC - he knows there is something to that. Jon and his freaking Direwolf saved Joer from a zombie. Lets just let that settle in that Jon rolls with a huge albine monster. He is not a normal person. Joers family sent the sword to him. They could have kept it for themselves, as it was left in their possession. They didnt, they sent it to Joer at the Wall. SO yea, its his to give. This, maybe jeor saw jon snow as his 'son' so to speak in the nights watch, i mean the guy just saved his butt from a walking corpse and jeor fatherly instinct kicked in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinvanpersie Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The obvious explanation is that JM+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 We find neither of these explicitly stated in the text (except that Jeor did want Jorah to take the black). But the behaviour of the characters gives us some clue. How odd would it be to present someone with a valuable gift that has great symbolic significance when you know you owe that object to someone else? Would it be in character with Jeor? We know he loved his sister, therefore it is unlikely that he intentionally disregarded her wish in this respect. Alternatively, the role of VS swords in-story makes a permanent donation to the Watch unconscionable on Maege's part (it is stealing from the future) and stupid on Jeor's (again, why not send the thing to Tywin Lannister, helping the Watch, and sending the thing far away at the same time?). A temporary loan only requires one character (Jeor) to act implausibly, a permanent donation requires two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Alternatively, the role of VS swords in-story makes a permanent donation to the Watch unconscionable on Maege's part (it is stealing from the future) and stupid on Jeor's (again, why not send the thing to Tywin Lannister, helping the Watch, and sending the thing far away at the same time?). A temporary loan only requires one character (Jeor) to act implausibly, a permanent donation requires two. Gee, I wonder why a Northman would give his dishonoured VS to another Northman who is a Stark and son of the Lord of Winterfell for free rather than sell it off to the highest bidder. Can you come up with a reason why yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Alternatively, the role of VS swords in-story makes a permanent donation to the Watch unconscionable on Maege's part (it is stealing from the future) and stupid on Jeor's (again, why not send the thing to Tywin Lannister, helping the Watch, and sending the thing far away at the same time?). A temporary loan only requires one character (Jeor) to act implausibly, a permanent donation requires two. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Alternatively, the role of VS swords in-story makes a permanent donation to the Watch unconscionable on Maege's part (it is stealing from the future) and stupid on Jeor's (again, why not send the thing to Tywin Lannister, helping the Watch, and sending the thing far away at the same time?). A temporary loan only requires one character (Jeor) to act implausibly, a permanent donation requires two. Why would Jeor sell it to a child-murdering, rape-ordering scumbag that the Warden of the North, Jeor's former liege lord, distrusted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Why would Jeor sell it to a child-murdering, rape-ordering scumbag that the Warden of the North, Jeor's former liege lord, distrusted? I can think of about 100,000 golden reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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