R+L=J v.122

[BearQueen87]

Not if Aerys told them to end Robert's Rebellion. Any command Aerys gives them is more important than protecting Rhaegar.

Not for Dayne and Whent. I think you're missing that point. There is a lot of speculation that Danye and Whent had sworn themselves to Rhaegar (as in : as their king). That's why we harp on Hightower more than Dayne and Whent at the TOJ and what was going on.

[RumHam]

It might have been just before or just after the coronation, since it is descrbed as a coronation present.

Can you post the quote where it's described as a coronation present? I don't remember that. Even if it was a coronation present, I don't think there's such a strict time window. You've never given someone a belated birthday or wedding gift?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Whether YG is real or not, it really doesn't affect what happened at the ToJ, since there is absolutely no evidence that he was ever there to begin with, nor any that would suggest that the 3 KG there knew he was alive.

There is no evidence that Rhaegar was ever at the tower of joy either. From what we know of the Kingsguard at the showdown with Ned and gang, Aegon was never brought up in conversation, so we don't know what they knew about him, i.e. there's nothing to suggest they thought Aegon was dead either.

[BearQueen87]

There is no evidence that Rhaegar was ever at the tower of joy either. From what we know of the Kingsguard at the showdown with Ned and gang, Aegon was never brought up in conversation, so we don't know what they knew about him, i.e. there's nothing to suggest they thought Aegon was dead either.

They knew Aerys was dead. You think whoever told them that the King was dead neglected to tell them that the heir was dead too?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It's not stated either way, so the Kingsguard knowledge of Aegon's fate is guesswork. It could go either way.

ETA I'm not 100% on Aegon, but so far I think he's the real deal, And if so he brings questions to the table that affect the Kingsguards among others.

[BearQueen87]

It's not stated either way, so the Kingsguard knowledge of Aegon's fate is guesswork. It could go either way.

Ok well think about it like this. The KG get a letter saying that King Aerys and Rhaegar are dead. Let's say that for some reason the person who sent the letter neglected to tell the 3KG that Aegon was dead as well. Do you think Hightower wouldn't have hightailed it to KL because even if Jon is legit, Aegon comes first. But he doesn't And he doesn't go to Viserys who is alive and on DS.

"It's not stated" is a rather poor excuse. Many things aren't stated. But why--why--would someone tell the 3KG at the TOJ that Aerys and Rhaegar are dead and that Robert has taken the throne, but not tell them that Aegon is dead.

Possibility is not probability and saying it could go either is saying that both scenarios are equal, when they are not. One makes far less sense and is far less likely than the other.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Because Aegon is not dead.

[BearQueen87]

Because Aegon is not dead.

And when the reports from KL come that apparently he is (because again why would someone not tell the 3KG that he is dead when they are reporting that Aerys is dead and everyone thinks that Aegon is among the dead as well)...I will repeat what I said a page back:

Let's say Aegon was at the TOJ. Then what happens when they get the news that Aerys, Rhaegar, and most likely Aegon (and Rhaenys) are dead? Were the KG in on the plan all along to sneak the prince out? Do they question if they have the right babe? Do they trust Varys/someone else that much? Did they know that fake-baby-swap was the plan?

[The Twinslayer]

Can you post the quote where it's described as a coronation present? I don't remember that. Even if it was a coronation present, I don't think there's such a strict time window. You've never given someone a belated birthday or wedding gift?

Do you think Tywin served up the bodies a day or two after the coronation? I don't, I think it was the same day. Ned rode out the same day, and I don't think he missed the coronation.

As far as coronation gifts go, this is from ADWD, Barristan:

"Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King's Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up on crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king."

On another note, what do you think of my proposed revision to the FAQs in the OP to this thread? I think the question about whether polygamy was ever outlawed should be edited to ask (1) whether it was ever legal (or of Aegon and Maegor just got away with it because they had dragons), and (2) whether the reason no one has done it since Jaehaerys reconciled with the Faith and created a unified system of laws is that the unified laws outlawed polygamy. What do you think?

[BearQueen87]

On another note, what do you think of my proposed revision to the FAQs in the OP to this thread? I think the question about whether polygamy was ever outlawed should be edited to ask (1) whether it was ever legal (or of Aegon and Maegor just got away with it because they had dragons), and (2) whether the reason no one has done it since Jaehaerys reconciled with the Faith and created a unified system of laws is that the unified laws outlawed polygamy. What do you think?

I think the OP could use a revision (if only so we don't have to have the "revise the OP" debate again). I don't agree with your conclusion but I do think it should be there. Perhaps you should write the revision for that section, the "nay" side of it?

[The Twinslayer]

They knew Aerys was dead. You think whoever told them that the King was dead neglected to tell them that the heir was dead too?

I think whoever told them Aerys was dead did not know that Aegon was (supposedly) dead. Because the second Aerys' death was known, a message was sent. Aegon's supposed death was not known until several days later, and I don't think there was a second messenger.

Also, Ned and the 3KGs never mention Aegon, even though they mention all the other known male Targ heirs. Why don't they mention Aegon?

"When Tywin Lannister's men smashed Prince Aegon's head, I wondered where you were."

"We were right here, or else the Mountain would be a corpse and Aegon would be the heir to Viserys, who is described by the world book as Aerys' 'new heir' after Rhaegar died.'"

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Who says the Kingsguard didn't know he was alive? We don't know what the KG knew, as stated above.

[BearQueen87]

I think whoever told them Aerys was dead did not know that Aegon was (supposedly) dead. Because the second Aerys' death was known, a message was sent. Aegon's supposed death was not known until several days later, and I don't think there was a second messenger.

Also, Ned and the 3KGs never mention Aegon, even though they mention all the other known male Targ heirs. Why don't they mention Aegon?

"When Thwin Lannister's men smashed Prince Aegon's head, I wondered where you were."

"We were right here, or else the Mountain would be a corpse and Aegon would be the heir to Viserys, who is described by the world book as Aerys' 'new heir' after Rhaegar died.'"

How are you figuring that timeline?. Tywin got to KL before Ned did. He sent men to kill Aegon right away. He had them killed, wrapped up their bodies and waited for Robert who was not that far behind.

And it could not be "the second" Aerys was discovered dead. KL was in chaos. It was a sack. No one stopped to send a raven to the KG (because...think about it...who would have??--Pycelle? Mr. Lannister Loyalist who told Aerys to open the gates?) Whoever sent the raven to the TOJ would have been a Targ loyalist and would have included all the information.

Who says the Kingsguard didn't know he was alive? We don't know what the KG knew, as stated above.

I'm saying that when reports of Aegon's death reach the TOJ (with the death of Aerys) and they've apparently got baby Aegon in the TOj are they not at all suspicious of what is going on? Do they not question whether or not they've got the right baby? Do they not stop and go "omg...we've been had!" No. Because Aegon wasn't at the TOJ or Dorne or anywhere else except on the throne room floor with an open skull.

[sj4iy]

There is no evidence that Rhaegar was ever at the tower of joy either. From what we know of the Kingsguard at the showdown with Ned and gang, Aegon was never brought up in conversation, so we don't know what they knew about him, i.e. there's nothing to suggest they thought Aegon was dead either.

Nothing at all proving it.

Except for:

1. Rhaegar actually giving it a NAME.

2. The woman with whom he absconded dying there.

3. The two KG with whom he "stole" Lyanna dying there.

4. The man who was sent to find him dying there.

You're completely right. There's nothing at all to prove it.

:rolleyes:

[sj4iy]

I think whoever told them Aerys was dead did not know that Aegon was (supposedly) dead. Because the second Aerys' death was known, a message was sent. Aegon's supposed death was not known until several days later, and I don't think there was a second messenger.

Also, Ned and the 3KGs never mention Aegon, even though they mention all the other known male Targ heirs. Why don't they mention Aegon?

"When Tywin Lannister's men smashed Prince Aegon's head, I wondered where you were."

"We were right here, or else the Mountain would be a corpse and Aegon would be the heir to Viserys, who is described by the world book as Aerys' 'new heir' after Rhaegar died.'"

They were answering Ned's questions...they certainly can't answer something he never asked. And they aren't about to volunteer information to the enemy.

[The Twinslayer]

I think the OP could use a revision (if only so we don't have to have the "revise the OP" debate again). I don't agree with your conclusion but I do think it should be there. Perhaps you should write the revision for that section, the "nay" side of it?

As I said before, I think the OP does a very good job of introducing people to the theory. It was written two years ago and I think some updates are in order. Credit to the OP on this version for making some already.

On the legality of polygamy, we discussed up-thread whether the OP should be neutral or slanted in favor of polygamy being legal. Among those who expressed a view, the majority thought thT the reference guide should be slanted in favor of polygamy being legal. I then suggested that the FAQ question -- which currently assumes that polygamy was once legal and may or may not have been outlawed -- be changed to reflect the current counter-theory. RumHam has done some good work on updating this, so subject to his input on the language I am suggesting we change it to say that the questions are (1) whether polygamy was ever legal, and (2) whether, when Jaehaerys wrote the unified laws, he outlawed polygamy or kept it legal (but no one did it anymore).

That said, if you are suggesting an addendum to the OP that would lay out the anti-RLJ theory, I am game but that would take some time. I would want to know that it would be included in the OP going forward.

[BearQueen87]

As I said before, I think the OP does a very good job of introducing people to the theory. It was written two years ago and I think some updates are in order. Credit to the OP on this version for making some already.

On the legality of polygamy, we discussed up-thread whether the OP should be neutral or slanted in favor of polygamy being legal. Among those who expressed a view, the majority thought thT the reference guide should be slanted in favor of polygamy being legal. I then suggested that the FAQ question -- which currently assumes that polygamy was once legal and may or may not have been outlawed -- be changed to reflect the current counter-theory. RumHam has done some good work on updating this, so subject to his input on the language I am suggesting we change it to say that the questions are (1) whether polygamy was ever legal, and (2) whether, when Jaehaerys wrote the unified laws, he outlawed polygamy or kept it legal (but no one did it anymore).

That said, if you are suggesting an addendum to the OP that would lay out the anti-RLJ theory, I am game but that would take some time. I would want to know that it would be included in the OP going forward.

No, I really don't think there should be any anti-RLJ stuff in the OP. That's not what this thread is actually for (well, not the OP at least). I think the FAQ polygamy part should be updated but it needs to be brief, just like the pro-polygamy answer is. It can't go into every for-instance of polygamy being possibly illegal.

[sj4iy]

I adamantly disagree with any revision on polygamy.

There is obvious precedent and no mention of illegality. It should stay as it is, otherwise we turn the OP into a god-of-the-gaps argument...and that's not what it is for. In any case, Rhaegar was the second most powerful man in Westeros and in line for the throne...questions of legality don't really play into it because only one person could theoretically stop him from it- and there's no evidence that Aerys did.

[BearQueen87]

I adamantly disagree with any revision on polygamy.

There is obvious precedent and no mention of illegality. It should stay as it is, otherwise we turn the OP into a god-of-the-gaps argument...and that's not what it is for. In any case, Rhaegar was the second most powerful man in Westeros and in line for the throne...questions of legality don't really play into it because only one person could theoretically stop him from it- and there's no evidence that Aerys did.

In my perfect world scenario, updating the OP means we can stop arguing about polygamy since both sides are being represented.

*yes, BQ knows this is a pipe dream* *and is now going to go do actual dreaming before she gets suckered into more TOJ/Aegon/No Is Really Dead/ Everyone Is A Targ/ Jon is Not Really Jon talk*

[The Twinslayer]

How are you figuring that timeline?. Tywin got to KL before Ned did. He sent men to kill Aegon right away. He had them killed, wrapped up their bodies and waited for Robert who was not that far behind.

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us."

Ned is racing down with the cavalry to start the siege. Robert will get patched up and follow with the infantry. And, lest there be any doubt that Ned moved quickly:

"Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first."

Robert obviously arrives a few days later (what is the travel time from the Trident for racing cavalry versus wounded infantry?).

Then, Tywin springs his surprise.

"When I laid those bodies before the throne ... Robert's relief was palpable."