The Riverlands Web V.5

[LongRider]

Sandor is one of our favorites in the Riverlands. He's caught up in the web whether he knows it or not:

Le Cygne, on 07 Sept 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

And... The Dog/Sandor parallels. When Dog comes up to him, Sandor scratches his ear. Dog is huge, like Sandor, and belongs to himself, like Sandor, and Sandor had an ear injury in the fight with his brother's men.

**********

The archer looked at him a long while before he said, “You’re Joffrey’s dog.”

“My own own dog now. Do you want the water?”
...

“Does your dog have a name?” asked Podrick Payne.

“He must,” said Meribald, “but he is not my dog. Not him.” The dog barked and wagged his tail. He was a huge, shaggy creature, ten stone of dog at least, but friendly.

“Who does he belong to?” asked Podrick.

“Why, to himself, and to the Seven. As to his name, he has not told me what it is. I call him Dog.”
...

Also just noticing, "As to his name, he has not told me what it is." Man, how does GRRM manage to squeeze so much into so little.

[LongRider]

Which led to this exchange:

LongRider, on 07 Sept 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

The gravedigger will have the opportunity to change his name from 'the Hound' to Sandor Clegane, his own dog; not the Lannister's servant. GRRM also attaches importance to 'a name' in the case of Reek/Theon. "Theon. My name is Theon, you have to know your name."

Does this mean that Sandor will come into his own and leave the Hound and being the servant behind? Will time on QI give him the quiet and peace he needs to realize he can be his own man (dog) and go after what is important to him? The Hound is dead, Sandor the fully realized person needs to be born. Now is his chance.

OldGimletEye: This is a great point. It does seem that people remembering who they are is a big theme that GRRM explores. Could this mean that Sandor remembers who he really was before being burned by Gregor? An idealistic kid that dreamed of being a knight?

Also, I do think the new Sandor will never be a simple "yes man" anymore. I think he has learned his lesson on that one.

[LongRider]

Karmarni made this comment about Nymeria and Sandor as tied together by Arya:

As for not attacking the Hound:

But when she mounted, he said, “A real wolf would finish a wounded animal.”
Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they’ll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. “You shouldn’t have hit me with an axe,” she said. “You should have saved my mother.” She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

I've always thought there is some significance to the "Maybe some real wolves will find you" thought. If you go with the wolves don't know the difference in 'allegiance', then look out Sandor. But I'm going with they do. And it would be interesting to see if Arya warging Nyms would recognize Sandor and what might happen. The 'she-wolves' seem to have a handle on the dog.

But when she mounted, he said, “A real wolf would finish a wounded animal.”
Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they’ll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. “You shouldn’t have hit me with an axe,” she said. “You should have saved my mother.” She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

On the other hand, the 'real wolves' here might be other Starks and their wolves - like Rickon and Shaggydog, just not Arya as the 'real wolf' at that moment in time.

[LongRider]

Le Cygne gave us this insight:

I think Arya had a sense that Sandor was Sansa's pack. I think the Sansa connection is important to both of them, and was a part of what was going on between them, beneath the surface. She knows he saved Sansa's life, too.

I also think the crow plays into things, so I'm going to throw that out before I forget it. Since we're talking about animals and all. "River" suggesting Brynden Rivers. I think Sandor has been established as a Stark ally.

Arya glanced over her shoulder, but there was nothing behind them but a crow flitting from tree to tree. The only sound was the river.

[LongRider]

Regarding the Ghost of High Heart's words to Arya ("I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel... I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"). I agree with you guys that this isn't her usual "prophecy mode" explaining something that the GoHH has dreamed (and certainly not Arya's death), but rather a response to what she senses from Arya, smells from her (put another entry in the "sniffing things out" category). The line about "gorging on grief" is interesting, because we can ask if she's identifying the grief that Arya already bears within her, or the grief that she is going to cause. I feel so bad for Arya here! She's called cruel for imposing her very presence on the Ghost, because what she is is terrible.

And the "dark heart" line...well, I'm convinced there's a whole Heart of Darkness thing going on with Bran's storyline (with BR as Kurtz), but the Ghost's words here also make that connection to Arya (whose later storyline at the HoBaW has so many parallels with Bran's greenseer training). There's a lot of ambiguity surrounding darkness, though, the deep places of the earth, presumably like under High Heart itself. What does BR say to Bran? "Never fear the darkness, Bran. [...] The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

Not being that familiar with Heart of Darkness would you mind expanding on your ideas about this? I'd like to get a better idea of what you mean and don't understand the Kurtz character enough to make the connection.

Thanks!

[Booknerd2]

Thanks, Longie…I've been focusing more on the funny and you are keeping the balance going! Ok, a few more and then….it is BIG NYMS TIME! She was the next PQ in version 1.

This was great:

LeCgyne: While Brienne plays the Beastly Beauty (Brienne the Beauty), and Sandor plays the straight Beast (the Hound), they are both basically wandering around lovesick, while their respective "beauties" stayed behind (symbolically). One scene I thought was a clear parallel was Brienne sobbing to the Elder Brother, every other word is Jaime... and when we last saw Sandor prior to this scene, he was sobbing about Sansa, so I bet there was a moment very much the same (and that's how the Elder Brother knows some of what he knows, since Sandor is not the sort to open up easily).

More later…but over time I started gaining a newer, deeper appreciation for AFFC. Never disliked it, but more stuff started to open up for me the more I looked and the more I sought out others ideas too. I think this is the first time I mentioned it and then I go to town on it later.

"I don't think Brienne just mosied and meandered. I think we are supposed to think that. And some of that stuff that happened, or some of the people she met, well, it is going to factor in later."

We discussed if anything about QI might “click” for Brienne down the road. Then I saw this again:

LeCygne: "True! Rather odd to bring a warhorse to the Quiet Isle if Sandor was really dead, Brienne."

Yeah, perhaps trade him or sell him…why bring him there. Doesn’t it suck having more insight, info, and hindsight than the characters? Lol! This is why I have to stop yelling at the pages when I read and trying to direct orders to characters on what to do and what not to do. LOL! But it seems Brienne did not think of that, or even Pod which I had hoped he might have put something together. He has seen Sandor before and I had hoped the height, way he stands, anything might even stick out for him, even later. But alas…most likely pipe dreams.

And a lot of time was spent talking about the QI…

Longie: Sandor did acknowledge Brienne and party and gave his opinion of them:

Quote

"As he flung a spadeful of stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter at their feet."

More tunic jokes…

Gimlet: Perhaps Brienne and Sandor can give advice to each other. Sandor can give Brienne a little guidance on dealing with the realities of the world. And Brienne can stop Sandor from buying anymore dorky tunics with dog's heads on them.

LeCygne: And before it's all over, someone will be "singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss" if you get my driftwood...

Ok, some Big Nyms coming up….Whoah….Wolf Pack! :grouphug:

[Booknerd2]

Big Nymin’

“Yup. My favorite dog, or canine-like entity since Triumph on Conan…”

“That might be the first time I just, out of nowhere, got such a kick out of this huge, tough, fierce direwolf, and for some reason, I got a kick out of calling her Big Nyms. And then it got really funny over time and on other threads and just happened. A bunch of us just started referring to her as Big Nyms.

I think of a heavy in an old movie for some reason. Some tough guy…but she is one tough wolf.”

Now the brandy snifter, cigar-puffing, Mission Impossible equipment, and benchwarming qualities….well, I will leave that out. It was brought up on version 1 and on Re-Thinking Romance so many times…but I don’t think we can forget that rant.

"She attacked Joffrey and bit his arm. (high-fiving everyone all around.) The minute he struck out at Arya, in comes her protector, Big Nyms. Nothing else to say. It was awesome. I will post that great visual again of Nymeria chomping down on his arm from a few posts ago."

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110625092017/gameofthrones/images/d/d3/Nymeria_bites_Joffrey.png

We hear of other attacks much later, when she is HDWIC (Head Direwolf In Charge.) And many are her minions doing her bidding too.

Also, there is so much, so let us tackle this together like we did with Sandor and Stranger. Nymeria does feel or reflect Arya’s internal feelings. She is a fighter, brave, daring, and a survivor too. She kicks as much ass as Arya.

Gah! Poor Grey Wind…I will never get over it.

But these direwolves, just think of the amazing awareness and feats of Ghost with Jon, and Grey Wind with Robb, Summer with Bran, etc. Even how Lady took on Sansa’s sweet, guileless demeanor back in the day. Grey Wind was warning Robb not to go into that wedding. He was beside himself, and it is the one part on a re-read that still gives me goose bumps and hurts a lot. Like Grey Wind knew before Robb and Cat and the rest would, of this disaster coming, and how he must have felt when he knew he couldn’t do anything. Robb kept walking on in. It’s horrible.

Sandor always busted Sansa about Lady and Stark wolf affinity. Can you imagine Sandor and Stranger seeing the monstrous and fierce Big Nyms? He always called Arya “wolf bitch.” Ok, Houndsy, meet the biggest wolf bitch of them all. The original, the one and only, Big Nyms! Because if he is expecting anything like the demure and sweet wolf, Lady, er, he is in for a big surprise.

Some words of Wizz-dom:

Because Wizz is the professional on a “detail.” Wait, make that, all details…

Arya has throughout the story had a thing about the ' Pack '. She thinks of her family, friends and allies as her pack.

'' Wolves she thought again. Like me, was this her pack ? How could they be Robb's men ? '' ARYA, ASOS

'' They were her pack, her friends, the only living friends that remained to her, and if not for her they would still be safe in Harrenhal, Gendry sweating at his forge and Hot Pie in the kitchens. '' ARYA, ASOS

'' She had no pack though. They had killed her pack, Ser Ilyn and Ser Meryn and the Queen. ARYA, AFFC

I think there's a definite connection there, with Arya's use of the word a few times, and Big Nyms obvious gathering of a pack, it's almost like Arya's want for that pack is being fulfilled by Big Nyms.

I agree with the opinion that the pack know not to attack or hurt Arya for this very reason, they realise the connection. Could we go as far to say they realise not to attack Arya's companions as well ? I think yes. We have the evidence of Stranger helping others when it suited, doesn't mean they are safe when out of the company of said owners [ Arya / Nymeria + Sandor ]. Otherwise it's fair game.

I love that too…

Big Nyms: No worries, Arya.…I got it covered. I’ll build a pack. The baddest bunch of mother@#$%@#% this side of the Riverlands. Til we meet again…I’ll handle it.

[LongRider]

I was thinking about the idea that both Sansa and Arya have 'lost their wolf'. However, because Nyms is still alive Arya and Nym still have a warg connection. A connection that fortunately stretches to Arya in Braavos. I hope that this connection and Needle, will help to keep Arya from going over completely to the dark side of the HoBW.

[Hrafntýr]

Not being that familiar with Heart of Darkness would you mind expanding on your ideas about this? I'd like to get a better idea of what you mean and don't understand the Kurtz character enough to make the connection.

Thanks!

Sure thing, LongRider! Since it’s pretty much off topic for our riverlands discussion (in my opinion more about Bran’s arc, with “heart of darkness” as “heart of winter” though I suppose all the Starks may have something to do with the heart of winter), I’ll put my ideas about Heart of Darkness in spoiler tags.

Conrad’s

Heart of Darkness is narrated by the somewhat “broken” Marlow, who travels upriver into the blank spaces of colonial Africa to the “Central Station,” in order to encounter firsthand the mysterious figure Kurtz about whom he keeps hearing all manner of conflicting accounts. Kurtz is the Faustian, megalomaniacal “evil genius” at the center of the novella, but he’s also a sort of cipher onto which the reader can project any manner of notions.

Through Marlow’s eyes we see the meaningless aggression and brutality of colonialism (analogous to the game of thrones), which provides the backdrop for Marlow’s encounter with Kurtz, who has “gone native” in a skull-bedecked compound (which calls to mind the skulls of the cave of the children). Kurtz has become a god or idol of the “natives.” (Or so it seems: we don't really know what the Africans really think, just as we don't really know the Children's real views of the human greenseers.) For all that the book presents imperialism/politics as one sort of madness, we encounter in Kurtz a figure who no longer has any power above himself to answer to, which creates in him another kind of madness. It’s a sort of existentialist examination, really, exploring the extent and limits of human freedom beyond conventions of good and evil. Even though I don’t have specifics (it’s been a long while since I read HoD), I remember it being very much also concerned with the constitution of self and other through looking/seeing; what of the figure who has the power to see all without having the reciprocal gaze of the other?

Like the many views of Bloodraven, to one figure Kurtz is a brilliant politician, to another a genius humanitarian, while Marlow sees a figure who simultaneously has gone native but has also scrawled at the end of his anthropological/philosophical tract on the “natives” the phrase: “Exterminate the brutes!” I said earlier that Kurtz is a sort of cipher, but in Marlow’s telling we get the impression that maybe Kurtz had penetrated the secrets of the “heart of darkness.” His final words as he dies (probably the most famous line of the book) is “The horror, the horror!” but of course the meaning of the phrase remains an enigma for us.

And honestly, even while the novella shows the horrors of imperialism, in the end the dark continent and the Africans really are just a backdrop for delving into the darkness of the human heart.

Everything in HoD is shadowed in darkness, which is a major motif in the book, just as it is in ASoIaF (the darkness of which Bloodraven speaks in the quote I offered upthread, the darkness of which Mel speaks: it’s so interesting that the greenseers’ cave from which everything can be seen is shrouded in darkness). Of course it was the Ghost of High Heart’s use of the label “dark heart” for Arya that even made me think of the parallel…and it’s such a memorable phrase for me. On the one hand, it seems terribly ominous, but only if we think the darkness is terrible.

Another similarity between HoD and ASoIaF is the way that we get information: through chance encounters, though little snippets of this or that character’s accounts of what is going on, through "unreliable narrators."

So, anyway, probably not so much that is relevant to the Riverlands Web, other than the bigger existentialist themes that are so much a part of the riverlands chapters, and possibly also the “river” motif itself, which is also in HoD: the river is what allows you access into the heart of darkness, and it’s the flow of time from the pov of humans. The river is inescapable in HoD: the remembered “action” of the novel takes place along the African river and the narration of the story takes place on a boat on the Thames, back in the “heart” of so-called civilization.

[LongRider]

Sure thing, LongRider! Since it’s pretty much off topic for our riverlands discussion (in my opinion more about Bran’s arc, with “heart of darkness” as “heart of winter” though I suppose all the Starks may have something to do with the heart of winter), I’ll put my ideas about Heart of Darkness in spoiler tags.

Conrad’s

Heart of Darkness is narrated by the somewhat “broken” Marlow, who travels upriver into the blank spaces of colonial Africa to the “Central Station,” in order to encounter firsthand the mysterious figure Kurtz about whom he keeps hearing all manner of conflicting accounts. Kurtz is the Faustian, megalomaniacal “evil genius” at the center of the novella, but he’s also a sort of cipher onto which the reader can project any manner of notions.

Through Marlow’s eyes we see the meaningless aggression and brutality of colonialism (analogous to the game of thrones), which provides the backdrop for Marlow’s encounter with Kurtz, who has “gone native” in a skull-bedecked compound (which calls to mind the skulls of the cave of the children). Kurtz has become a god or idol of the “natives.” (Or so it seems: we don't really know what the Africans really think, just as we don't really know the Children's real views of the human greenseers.) For all that the book presents imperialism/politics as one sort of madness, we encounter in Kurtz a figure who no longer has any power above himself to answer to, which creates in him another kind of madness. It’s a sort of existentialist examination, really, exploring the extent and limits of human freedom beyond conventions of good and evil. Even though I don’t have specifics (it’s been a long while since I read HoD), I remember it being very much also concerned with the constitution of self and other through looking/seeing; what of the figure who has the power to see all without having the reciprocal gaze of the other?

Like the many views of Bloodraven, to one figure Kurtz is a brilliant politician, to another a genius humanitarian, while Marlow sees a figure who simultaneously has gone native but has also scrawled at the end of his anthropological/philosophical tract on the “natives” the phrase: “Exterminate the brutes!” I said earlier that Kurtz is a sort of cipher, but in Marlow’s telling we get the impression that maybe Kurtz had penetrated the secrets of the “heart of darkness.” His final words as he dies (probably the most famous line of the book) is “The horror, the horror!” but of course the meaning of the phrase remains an enigma for us.

And honestly, even while the novella shows the horrors of imperialism, in the end the dark continent and the Africans really are just a backdrop for delving into the darkness of the human heart.

Everything in HoD is shadowed in darkness, which is a major motif in the book, just as it is in ASoIaF (the darkness of which Bloodraven speaks in the quote I offered upthread, the darkness of which Mel speaks: it’s so interesting that the greenseers’ cave from which everything can be seen is shrouded in darkness). Of course it was the Ghost of High Heart’s use of the label “dark heart” for Arya that even made me think of the parallel…and it’s such a memorable phrase for me. On the one hand, it seems terribly ominous, but only if we think the darkness is terrible.

Another similarity between HoD and ASoIaF is the way that we get information: through chance encounters, though little snippets of this or that character’s accounts of what is going on, through "unreliable narrators."

So, anyway, probably not so much that is relevant to the Riverlands Web, other than the bigger existentialist themes that are so much a part of the riverlands chapters, and possibly also the “river” motif itself, which is also in HoD: the river is what allows you access into the heart of darkness, and it’s the flow of time from the pov of humans. The river is inescapable in HoD: the remembered “action” of the novel takes place along the African river and the narration of the story takes place on a boat on the Thames, back in the “heart” of so-called civilization.

Seriously, :bowdown: !

Wow! Thanks Hrafntyr!!! I plan to read this again later when I have more time. When I think HoD I think of Apocalypse Now and I see I need to put HoD on my supplemental reading list. Your comments about the 'river motif' are interesting as we are trying to tease out connections that ebb and flow like the river itself. Thanks for the taking the time to answer.

:)

[Hrafntýr]

Karmarni made this comment about Nymeria and Sandor as tied together by Arya:

As for not attacking the Hound:

<snip>

But when she mounted, he said, “A real wolf would finish a wounded animal.”

Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they’ll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. “You shouldn’t have hit me with an axe,” she said. “You should have saved my mother.” She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

<snip>

This was probably covered on the first round, but when I reread this quote, especially the part in green, I feel like Arya is saying, "You shouldn't have saved me, you should have saved my mother instead." Heartbreaking.

Oh, and LongRider: I think Coppola is just as pertinent as Conrad. I think GRRM is as "well-viewed" as he is well-read, that his work is as informed by great films as it is by great literature.

[LongRider]

On the topic of darkness, I'm reminded of the Hound's trial with the BWB. First they pray "The night is dark and full of terrors." And the Hound replies "This cave is dark too, but I'm the terror here." And we do see 'dark' happenings in the cave. When we first meet Beric he is doing his Bloodraven impression by sitting in a 'throne' of weirwood roots, later he's reanimated again after the Hound kills him. Arya is so taken over with anger and blood lust that she becomes hysterical.

Later in the same cave we hear of possible dissent among the ranks of the BWB concerning LSH and Thoros's concern over Lem donning the helm of the Hound. Could an argument be made that the BWB is trending towards 'darkness' while the Hound in his arc was trending 'towards the light' as the persona of the Hound was shed and Sandor emerged?

[Hrafntýr]

On the topic of darkness, I'm reminded of the Hound's trial with the BWB. First they pray "The night is dark and full of terrors." And the Hound replies "This cave is dark too, but I'm the terror here." And we do see 'dark' happenings in the cave. When we first meet Beric he is doing his Bloodraven impression by sitting in a 'throne' of weirwood roots, later he's reanimated again after the Hound kills him. Arya is so taken over with anger and blood lust that she becomes hysterical.

Later in the same cave we hear of possible dissent among the ranks of the BWB concerning LSH and Thoros's concern over Lem donning the helm of the Hound. Could an argument be made that the BWB is trending towards 'darkness' while the Hound in his arc was trending 'towards the light' as the persona of the Hound was shed and Sandor emerged?

Oh yeah, that's such a terrific example of the ambiguities surrounding darkness and light, and one-eyed cadaverous Beric does seem to deliberately prefigure the figure of Bloodraven on his weirwood throne. We don't know who to root for, the outcome is uncanny; if the cave is below High Heart, it might well itself be called "dark heart."I think there's also a related exposed/hidden, above/below thing going on. It's interesting, for example, that the Hound's identity is revealed when he's in the dark places, but hidden while he's in the light of day on the Quiet Isle. Sansa has a new persona while she's in the highest of places, and we leave her as she descends to the low places.

I have no idea about the trending toward light vs. darkness aspect, just as I don't think we can say that dark or light have a clear moral valence. Thoros is looking in the flames, but the road ahead is dark to him.

Also, in terms of the river imagery, Sandor (and Stranger!) have reached the very end of the river, where it meets the sea, washed down from the darkness upstream. It's a liminal space par excellence, and you might well be right that he's now poised to go into the light of the open, high places.

[Booknerd2]

After the Retro is done and the New Year comes, Beric is one of the next PQ's so this is good that he is being discussed...

Now for more Retro.

Ah, some more Sandor and Stranger

LeCygne: “Way down at the far end, well away from the other animals, a huge black stallion trumpeted at the sound of their voices and kicked at the door of his stall.”

“And that's what Sandor was doing when he "chanced" (ha ha ha) to fling the dirt, he may have a bum leg, but this is the Hound, he knows how to aim a clod of dirt at a couple of passing "knights" (for all he knew, Brienne was a knight). He was trumpeting at the sound of their voices and kicking at the door of his stall.”

Sorry, one more Sandor/Stranger bit... (bits, get it? ) Just wanted to hammer it what GRRM is telling with the words is that Sandor doesn't belong on the Quiet Isle. So I think this is a hint he's not long for that place.

"The Hound is dead" is a cute way of saying Sandor got over his anger over his brother issues, the Hound persona was his defense mechanism to protect himself from Gregor. But let's note that Sansa (Beauty) still refers to Sandor as the Hound (the Beast), and she likes his "ferocity" (and indeed, seems rather turned on by it, cruel kisses, oooh la la).

Sandor has slowly gone from driven by hate to driven by love, hence he's sobbing on his deathbed about Sansa, not that he never got the chance to kill Gregor. People think about who and what matters most to them when they are dying, and Sandor is thinking about her. And we have this to underscore what that sobbing is really about, the Beast almost dies of heartbreak:

Quote

"That's where the heart is, girl. That's how you kill a man."...

"You remember where the heart is?" he asked in a hoarse whisper...

He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister..."

The Elder Brother says, "I fear he has his former master's nature" - but he knows Sandor is still Stranger's master. So he's saying Sandor and Stranger both have the same nature. Then Brienne thinks, "The horse... Like the Hound" and again, she's calling this out for the reader, too. Stranger is our window into Sandor's state of mind, Sandor is still fierce:

Quote

"We prefer to call him Driftwood, as he was found beside the river. I fear he has his former master’s nature."

The horse. She had seen the stallion, had heard it kicking, but she had not understood. Destriers were trained to kick and bite. In war they were a weapon, like the men who rode them. Like the Hound.

So the attempt to "cut and polish" Stranger into Driftwood, and Sandor into a brother, FAIL. Sandor doesn't belong with the brothers, any more than Stranger belongs with the other animals.”

Big Nyms, Arya, Sansa, and “She-Wolf-ness”

Some more great LeCygne stuff: "They will tell you that she has been known to bring aurochs down all by herself, that no trap nor snare can hold her, that she fears neither steel nor fire, slays any wolf that tries to mount her, and devours no other flesh but man."

Just thinking about the sister parallels, Sansa had a near miss with Tyrion, who wanted to mount her, and slayed him with her courtesy armor (words). Littlefinger wants to mount her, too, and hopefully she slays him with something other than words.

Sansa is a she-wolf, too. Arya is a she-wolf. Lyanna was a she-wolf. What are she-wolves all about? Making choices. They want to decide who they mate with - or don't mate with. Lyanna ran off, she didn't want Robert. Sansa ran off, she didn't want Tyrion. Arya just ran off.

Lyanna seems to have wanted Rhaegar. Sansa seems to want Sandor - will she go to him, stay tuned. Arya doesn't seem to want anyone right now. She's in mad as hell and not going to take it anymore mode. But that could change, stay tuned.

The she-wolf decides for herself. She wants to make her own choices.”

Bookie: Just even my intuition as a reader the first time I read. Gregor is not on his mind at all. His heart is broken. Being sick and immobile with what happened to him, which also we know he started drinking, Fast!, and diminished his reflexes, in the bar fight, so his sorrow started way before he was with Arya and got worse. He caused it. He didn't seem to want to live anymore because he was now immobile due to injuries, fever, etc, and Sansa is out there somewhere after blowing KL, and he "thinks" at that point, that it is too late for him, and he can't do anything about it.

When someone feels all their hope is gone, it can make a big difference. And he had had several major disasters and setbacks, even before this scene.

Bookie: And I love that she stayed her pack away from the body, and they fell into line. She is protective and no one of her pack can touch Cat. That's right. She is BIG NYMS!

Okay…honestly I took the "without shame" as more Nymeria than Arya.

Could be totally wrong, but I loved it because I felt it was showing us that Nyms has reservations…she has to look "TUFF" in front of her pack, she knows, to keep fear and leadership in tact. And saving "food" would make her "look weak or bad" in front of her peeps, and they would question her.

They just would not understand, because she is, like her siblings, beyond normal wolves. Anyone following her does not have a bond, magic, or whatever that something extra is. But I also believe that has a lot to do with the gods "giving" that mother dead dire wolf and the exact number of litter pups for the Stark children. Even The Ned doesn't get one. It is meant only for the children for some reason. Like the gods knew, they were special and would need them.

Father of Hosts: Interesting. My thought was the opposite. Her connection to Nymeria is the only thing truly preventing her from becoming no one. When she stops having wolf dreams, we should worry.

I would posit that it will be something in her wolf dreams that brings her back to Westeros. Just as an example, if Nymeria is heading north and in a wolf dream she sees Shaggydog or Rickon or both, it could lead her back. Something like that anyway.

I love his idea too, because even in Mercy, at the start of the chapter, Nymeria is out hunting prey, and then in parallel we are shown Arya “hunting prey and making the kill” with Raff to wrap up the end of the chapter.

[Booknerd2]

Some more Big Nyms. Also, the t-shirt slogan day…and getting ready for some Hot Pie.

So more Big Nyms appreciation…and sorrow over Lady.

Bookie: And yeah, I love that dire wolf. She is my first. Grey Wind is my second. 3rd is Ghost, and Shaggy has grown on me. LOL! He needs to calm the hell down. He is even more pissed off than Big Nyms, like, all of the time...

Lady…I try not to think about. I love her characterization and that broke my heart. And that gave me the kick in the ass before Ned's death, that this first time series I was reading, was going to be a roller coaster.

Come on, who kills the cute pet in the movie or book? I was so confident she made it out. Well, besides, Bambi….I did NOT see Lady coming. And I knew I had just opened a can of literary worms. LOL! I think I was in shock for like two days. And I was reading the book along with the tv show so I was ahead for both at different times, and I saw Lady on the series first, and the visual…I still have to brace myself when we do a GOT DVD marathon at home. And it was just as bad in the book, or worse.

I will tell you guys my reaction to Ned one of these days. It was pretty bad. I was stupid enough to think Lady was bad enough…that he gets out too.

(Everybody put your hands in the circle)…..WHOAH…..Big Nyms!)

Liz Stark-Targaryen: Thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. The Riverlands characters and storylines always remind me of the legends of Robin Hood -- the BwB seem like a darker, more sinister Merry Men to me. Even some of the names and characterizations seem to echo the Robin Hood story. (Does that make Tywin or the Mountain the Sheriff of Nottingham?)

Significant plot events related to romance took place in the Riverlands. What we've learned about the Tourney at Harrenhal makes it seem like borderline soap, and of course, Robb's love for Jeyne led to the Red Wedding at the Twins. And as many of you have noted above, many of the series' fan favorite "pairings" are linked to the Riverlands as well -- Jamie/Brienne, Arya/Gendry, Sansa/Sandor, and although Sansa's SL is more KL & Vale, Sandor spent a great deal of time in the area, and his helm's been there even longer.

True, and yeah, some of the “favorite pairings” are all ensconced in the Web. Never thought about it that way.

Mycah Bluth starts the t-shirt sayings…

Mycah: "The Riverlands are for Lovers ^{and Piles of Corpses, Vigilante Justice and Resurrected Undead}" on a t-shirt or beer coozie.”

Duchess of Spork: I want that T-shirt!!

ETA: Add in a pack of wolves and Stranger!

Longie: "The Riverlands are for Lovers" on the top line,

Blue roses in the middle with a rearing black horse on one side and rearing grey direwolf on the other

"Love stories with an edge" on the bottom line.

LeCygne: I think we need a new book!

How about some blood dripping from the mouth of the direwolf. And Stranger has have the look on his face he had when Arya tried to make off with him. Maybe we need to work on the love part a bit more after this, though.

Longie: Ale mugs? Pictures on wineskins? Oh I know! We'll franchise it and put it on shields!

Daymn! We are such geniuses!

(and oh yeah, we need a new book)

Bookie: Don't forget! Big Nyms has to look super pissed off!

Stranger will be rolling his eyes at Sandor, and behind him will be a bunch of QI brothers with casts and bandages and slings. LOL!

Stranger: The Riverlands are for Lovers….the QI is for geldings….Hey wait a minute?

Longie: Well back on topic (we do have a topic right? LOL) I find Nym very hard to parse. The last we saw of her was in GOT when Arya and Jory had to chase her away. Nyms had bitten Joffrey the Piss-ant because he was threatening Arya. Good on Nyms to protect her girl, bad results tho.

So she runs off and all we have to piece her story together is wolf dreams, a few true accounts of wolf packs and attacks, and blown up stories of baby eating wolves doing all kinds of terrible things. But the wolves of the Riverlands didn't attack Arya or her traveling companions.

We currently don't know if Nyms is in the Riverlands or perhaps heading North. Like Arya, she is one angry being. Unlike Arya, she has her own pack and she is the leader of it. If Arya ever makes it back to Westeros (the sooner the better in my view) and meets up with Nyms and her pack, look out Riverlands or the North or where ever they meet, there could be trouble!

Bookie: That is so important. Poor Nymeria is sent from her owner, not realizing the good she did in trying to protect Arya. That is why it is so heart-breaking. It was like getting punished and sent off and you did not only do nothing wrong, but you can’t understand why, because you were protecting out of love. I will be be BAWLING when they reunite.

Some more about t-shirts and getting ready for Hot Pie next…

LeCygne: Yes, I will try to add romantic touches to the story of Hot Pie. If there's a way, I will find it. True to the slogan, The Riverlands are for Lovers ^{and Piles of Corpses, Vigilante Justice and Resurrected Undead}"

Longie: The Riverlands are for Lovers ^{and Piles of Corpses, Vigilante Justice and Resurrected Undead}"

When Sandor and Stranger make it off the QI they will be the "Resurrected Still Living, Ha Ha You Thought We Were Dead." ™

Bookie: And Hot Pie:

The Riverlands are for Lovers…and cronuts….and pastry shaped like dire wolves. Hopefully, not that Hellbitch that is wandering with a gnarly pack.

Stranger getting off QI: Yeah, and you can take the name Driftwood, and shove it up &^%$##@!

[Booknerd2]

Ok..a few more things and then Hot Pie is at the end.

Karmarni point out that Sandor has his own web going:

Interconnectedness – Riverlands Web, Sandor Clegane version.

Sandor has connections to many POV characters and to other characters that play plot-driving roles:

Sandor – Cersei; Jaime, Tyrion, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella

Sandor – Sansa, Arya, Robb, Ned

Sandor – Littlefinger

Sandor – Barristan

Sandor – Beric, Thoros, Anguy, Gendry (the BWB) – R’hllor

Sandor – Loras

Sandor – Gregor

Sandor – Brienne

Sandor – Elder Brother – Faith of the Seven

One step removed from:

Bronn, Podrick – through Tyrion

Lyle Crakehall (Strongboar) – through Jaime

Robert Strong – because of Gregor

Lady Stoneheart – through the BWB

Nymeria – through Arya

The vast majority of these characters are in the Riverlands at the end of ADWD.

Some great stuff…

LeCygne: What are all the direwolves telling us, there's this story going on parallel to the other story.

So this is kind of romantic but there's also a Lady part (and remember all the Sandor/Lady connections, I posted some upthread). Sansa is getting closer to where Sandor is, she even thinks she'll dream a sweet dream and when she wakes there will be dogs barking (and she's been missing hounds and all).

So to set this up, just before the last sequence, Sweetrobin was Sandor's stand-in for Sansa "pretending" she kisses Sandor. Later, Sweetrobin is her knight (and Sansa thinks of Sandor as her knight, she thought he was there to rescue her at the Fingers, for example).

"Help me get across" she tells Sweetrobin. That's what Sandor did for her. Beauty and the Beast is about becoming a woman, she's afraid to make the leap from father to lover. But she does. This explains all of those times Sandor caught her before she could fall around her flowering, and we see the same wording.

Look at me. Sansa says she's a woman. She won't close her eyes this time. And there's the ghost wolf she hears as she's crossing. This is a meaningful transition for Sansa, so I think the ghost wolf is Lady...

It was a long one, but post #344 even includes parallels to Cat, Mya, and others with quotes.

An intro for Hot Pie: It's been super busy and I am still writing up a little blurb to start things up. We are going to go with another fun one, but there is something serious in it to. Because I do believe, or really hope so too, that Hot Pie makes his return into the story, and the Riverlands Web. Ok, he is not going to save Westeros with a cronut, but he will bring comic relief, he is currently in the Riverlands, etc.

Favorite Hot Pie parts:

Hot Pie, my favorite pastry chef ever. A member of the Wolf Pack, who is currently perfecting the Westerosi version of the cronut, and an ex-Night’s Watch recruit. (Ok, hold your sides to keep from laughing at that last part.) But he was, er, for a bit.

What a surprising development his arc was to the series. I can’t get back those years of my life I lost. My worry for Arya and dislike of him was brief yet all consuming. Oh, I hated him when he entered the story. I imagined a long, very long journey for Arya/Arry where she had to fight off his bullying, no matter how tough or cool or how much we know our little scamp can rise to the occasion in impossible situations. Gender within the constraints of this world, size, strength, stamina, emotions, nerves, though she always finds a way to survive and move on, my girl just didn’t need this aggravation. Nor did she need Hot Pie tag-teaming with his sidekick Lommy of the Green Hands. I cringed when she met him and I thought that this terrible journey just got a bit more terrible. It was a sore spot considering what had happened with Ned and how she was cut off from all safety, completely on her own, and struggling to eat and survive with nothing but her scruples in Flea Bottom beforehand. We have all seen an asshole with issues that will just keep it up with the object of their torment, and never relent. Whether in books or in real life.

But I was wrong. Arya schooled him pretty quick.

And really he was just as frightened as she was, just as apprehensive about the future as Gendry and Arya was also. This was his way, inexcusable, but understandable, if not 100% forgivable of dealing with his fate, the loss of his baker mom, and his most probable fear of the motley assemblage of characters Yoren was travelling with: robbers, rapers, and the unknown in general.

I think of Hot Pie and Lommy as Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor in the jail scene of Stir Crazy.

“That’s right….we’re bad.” You know, let us just act aggressive and like assholes so nobody bothers us first.

So he started to let down his defenses over time. And it helped that she kicked his ass too. And he had some of the funniest scenes and lines in the series. He even cries out his own name in the heat of battle… until his self-imposed book retirement. He chooses to dodge any further dangerous pitfalls or any kind of threatening involvement to bake at the Inn of the Kneeling Man, which is named for Arya’s ancestor Torrhen Stark, The King Who Knelt.

And he lives on in the tv series currently, brought to life and bubbling over with all the humor and then some of the book by the wonderful portrayal by Ben Hawkey. But also, whether actor or direction or what have you, I think his inherent sweetness was really brought forward in the series too. Present in the book, but certainly more tangible in the tv series.

Yeah, Ben is the perfect Hot Pie. And the sweetness within and the bravery that emerged, well, the show dragged it out quicker than the book did. But it is on the money. They got it.

So, is it possible we will see him again? I know I sure as hell want to. In the tv series, I could watch over and over again, his armor observations, before the restrained yet cool exasperation of Gendry wrapping it up by offering deadpan and in a matter of fact fashion that he sold armor, and that is how he knows, is so subtle and so damn funny. And very Gendry of the book, I think too.

He is in the Riverlands. We always see a lot of action, drama, and hell, just a lot of major scenes at inn environments. They are public places, gathering points, and places for travellers coming from all sorts of points to converge.

I hold out hope that his comic relief offerings, his official status as member of the Wolf Pack, my hope for him to be initiated into the pack and meet the boss, Big Nyms, and his excellent rapport and the connection he developed with Arya and Gendry too will be revisited.

He could id her. He has lots of info regarding that time together with Arya and Gendry. And I love the underlying theme that nobody is safe. Sure, you can will yourself out of the game of thrones, have some stolen moments of peace and calm as you rise early, make dough, and count yourself lucky that you survived another day. Which makes me think that eventually he could be thrown back out into the turmoil for exactly that reason. Nobody is safe in Westeros. It is only temporary, well, if you are lucky.

Next is Jacket Cigar…er, I mean Jaqen H’ghar.

[LongRider]

The damn 'puter ate my post! Gah!

[LongRider]

I lost my last post, so will try again. I'll cut & paste from Bookie's posts above as I wanted to comment on them.

From Le Cygne: "The Hound is dead" is a cute way of saying Sandor got over his anger over his brother issues, the Hound persona was his defense mechanism to protect himself from Gregor. But let's note that Sansa (Beauty) still refers to Sandor as the Hound (the Beast), and she likes his "ferocity" (and indeed, seems rather turned on by it, cruel kisses, oooh la la).

One of my favorite phrases from all the Web threads. 'Ohh la la!'

From Bookie about Nyms; ""She attacked Joffrey and bit his arm. (high-fiving everyone all around.)

High fives again, just for the fun of it.

More from Bookie; "I don't think Brienne just mosied and meandered. I think we are supposed to think that. And some of that stuff that happened, or some of the people she met, well, it is going to factor in later."

Agreed, and the more I hang out here where we sift through so much the more I realize GRRM rarely just has a surprise or twist that just 'happened.' He builds towards them subtly and within more than one POV.

And the tee shirt jokes:

Mycah Bluth starts the t-shirt sayings…

Mycah: "The Riverlands are for Lovers ^{and Piles of Corpses, Vigilante Justice and Resurrected Undead}" on a t-shirt or beer coozie.”

Duchess of Spork: I want that T-shirt!!

ETA: Add in a pack of wolves and Stranger!

Longie: "The Riverlands are for Lovers" on the top line,

Blue roses in the middle with a rearing black horse on one side and rearing grey direwolf on the other

"Love stories with an edge" on the bottom line.

I want to change my tee shirt logo;

"The Riverlands are for Lovers" on the top line,

Blue roses in the middle with a rearing black horse on one side and rearing grey direwolf on the other

"Cruel Kisses! Ooh la la" on the bottom line.

Last but not least, Hot Pie

From Bookie: "An intro for Hot Pie: It's been super busy and I am still writing up a little blurb to start things up. We are going to go with another fun one, but there is something serious in it to. Because I do believe, or really hope so too, that Hot Pie makes his return into the story, and the Riverlands Web. Ok, he is not going to save Westeros with a cronut, but he will bring comic relief, he is currently in the Riverlands, etc."

My fav Hot Pie quote from the book: SOS, Arya II, they have just met the BWB and Gendry and Hot Pie rush out to save the day. "...In his chainmail shirt with a sword in his hand, Gendry looked almost a man grown, dangerous. Hot Pie looked like Hot Pie."

[Booknerd2]

I love Hot Pie.

http://www.geekenfreude.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Hot-Pie.gif

[Booknerd2]

And Big Nyms…I love this one.

Big Nyms is ready to let it rip. Er, most likely some throats.

http://lide.uhk.cz/fim/student/syrovlu3/Galerie/5.jpg