The Riverlands Web V.5

[Le Cygne]

I want to change my tee shirt logo;

"The Riverlands are for Lovers" on the top line,

Blue roses in the middle with a rearing black horse on one side and rearing grey direwolf on the other

"Cruel Kisses! Ooh la la" on the bottom line.

Now that's a nice tee shirt. Order me one, too! :lol:

Next is Jacket Cigar…er, I mean Jaqen H’ghar.

Sorry for my obsession with that scene, but it was awfully good. He was floating languid.

(And I think I jumped the gun again, sorry...)

[Booknerd2]

Jaqen is next and just in time to end the retro of version 1.

Oh, the James Bond jokes are coming…and that was a silly ass PQ too.

Longie, make that another shirt, too. lol.

[LongRider]

Oh yeah, that's such a terrific example of the ambiguities surrounding darkness and light, and one-eyed cadaverous Beric does seem to deliberately prefigure the figure of Bloodraven on his weirwood throne. We don't know who to root for, the outcome is uncanny; if the cave is below High Heart, it might well itself be called "dark heart."I think there's also a related exposed/hidden, above/below thing going on. It's interesting, for example, that the Hound's identity is revealed when he's in the dark places, but hidden while he's in the light of day on the Quiet Isle. Sansa has a new persona while she's in the highest of places, and we leave her as she descends to the low places.

I have no idea about the trending toward light vs. darkness aspect, just as I don't think we can say that dark or light have a clear moral valence. Thoros is looking in the flames, but the road ahead is dark to him.

Also, in terms of the river imagery, Sandor (and Stranger!) have reached the very end of the river, where it meets the sea, washed down from the darkness upstream. It's a liminal space par excellence, and you might well be right that he's now poised to go into the light of the open, high places.

The above/below idea reminds me of when I read the book "The Women Who Run with the Wolves" by Clarissa Pinko-Estes. She discussed many, many myths in this book and the motif of underground or subterranean feelings and personas was common in many myths. Now I don't for a minute think this book influenced GRRM, but what is subterranean and rising up to be seen again, is fairly common in myths.

Your comment about the Hound being seen in dark places and Sandor being hidden in the light is interesting. This reminds me of a comment made in a long ago thread about Sandor; Margaret Ballinger said "And the way he always seems to come out of the shadows, over and over, even Tryion at the battle of Blackwater mentions how he came out of the shadows. There is something there, but I don't know what. " So this something noticed by other readers. Perhaps Sandor isn't ready for his reveal yet? Or, maybe, the one who wants him, will be the first to find him? Le Cygne often remarks that she would like to have Sansa rescue the Hound. Perhaps she'll discover him in the light.

I like what you said here about the river. The tides come in and out there and it is a place of transition. And Sandor is in the process of a transition himself.

Almost forgot, the light dark aspect. GRRM has said he likes to write about the conflicts in the human heart and has also said many of his characters are 'grey.' I would argue that these type of conflicts, and the way he writes many of his characters are so complex that it is hard to distinguish light from dark at times. It's this that makes the Hound so fascinating to me. He can be immoral and cruel, but it turns out he does have a heart after all.

[LongRider]

Hmmm, I wonder how many golden dragons those shirts will be worth! LOL!

[Booknerd2]

Happy New Year!

Whoah….Wolf Pack! :grouphug:

[Dya of Oldstones]

Regarding the Ghost of High Heart's words to Arya ("I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel... I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"). I agree with you guys that this isn't her usual "prophecy mode" explaining something that the GoHH has dreamed (and certainly not Arya's death), but rather a response to what she senses from Arya, smells from her (put another entry in the "sniffing things out" category). The line about "gorging on grief" is interesting, because we can ask if she's identifying the grief that Arya already bears within her, or the grief that she is going to cause. I feel so bad for Arya here! She's called cruel for imposing her very presence on the Ghost, because what she is is terrible.

And the "dark heart" line...well, I'm convinced there's a whole Heart of Darkness thing going on with Bran's storyline (with BR as Kurtz), but the Ghost's words here also make that connection to Arya (whose later storyline at the HoBaW has so many parallels with Bran's greenseer training). There's a lot of ambiguity surrounding darkness, though, the deep places of the earth, presumably like under High Heart itself. What does BR say to Bran? "Never fear the darkness, Bran. [...] The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

Apologies for going slightly OT here, but I'll add a theory that I wish I could take credit for but think I found in one of the Heresy threads...I wish I could find the original thread or remember who posted it so I could give them credit for it. Hell, for all I know, I could have found it here. Anyhoo.......

The theory is that Faceless Men were heavily involved with the Summerhall Tragedy and Ghost of High Heart was sensing the FM coin that Jaqen H'gar gave to Arya, and GoHH's reaction had more to do with the FM than it did with Arya herself. I know Arya's arc is darkening while she's in Braavos being pressured to become No One, but I would like to think there's still some hope for her.

ETA: Big Nyms to the rescue?

[Le Cygne]

LeCygne: What are all the direwolves telling us, there's this story going on parallel to the other story.

So this is kind of romantic but there's also a Lady part (and remember all the Sandor/Lady connections, I posted some upthread). Sansa is getting closer to where Sandor is, she even thinks she'll dream a sweet dream and when she wakes there will be dogs barking (and she's been missing hounds and all).

So to set this up, just before the last sequence, Sweetrobin was Sandor's stand-in for Sansa "pretending" she kisses Sandor. Later, Sweetrobin is her knight (and Sansa thinks of Sandor as her knight, she thought he was there to rescue her at the Fingers, for example).

"Help me get across" she tells Sweetrobin. That's what Sandor did for her. Beauty and the Beast is about becoming a woman, she's afraid to make the leap from father to lover. But she does. This explains all of those times Sandor caught her before she could fall around her flowering, and we see the same wording.

Look at me. Sansa says she's a woman. She won't close her eyes this time. And there's the ghost wolf she hears as she's crossing. This is a meaningful transition for Sansa, so I think the ghost wolf is Lady...

It was a long one, but post #344 even includes parallels to Cat, Mya, and others with quotes.

Le Cygne often remarks that she would like to have Sansa rescue the Hound.

Just guessing what's next, if not rescue, go to him. In the film, Beauty, desired by the Beast, now finds herself desiring the Beast, and she saves him with "a look of love" and there's a lot of "look at me" in this story, too. Sansa is clearly desiring the Hound. So what's next...

GRRM uses the same wording from when Catelyn goes up the mountain, and when Sansa goes down the mountain.

Catelyn is afraid of falling when crossing the stone saddle, she closes her eyes, and Mya helps her. Sandor helped Sansa stay on her saddle when she was falling during the rescue scene, and now she stays on her own saddle, then doesn't fall off the stone saddle, and helps Sweetrobin across. Catelyn closes her eyes. Sansa closed her eyes when he wanted to kiss her ("look at me"), but now she says she won't close her eyes.

Mya reminds Catelyn of Sansa, with her dreams of love. And Lothor reminds Sansa of Sandor, when he's rescuing her and more. Catelyn observes Mya was born on the wrong side of the blanket to marry Mychel, because she's a bastard and he is highborn. Instead, Lothor loves her. Sansa observes Alayne was born on the wrong side of the blanket to marry Loras, because she's a bastard and he is highborn. Instead, pretends to kiss Sandor, he loves her.

Sansa (playing Alayne Stone) remembers "Mya was much younger than Ser Lothor, but when her father had been brokering the marriage between Lord Corbray and his merchant's daughter, he’d told her that young girls were always happiest with older men."

And she goes into matchmaking mode for Lothor (the one she thought was Sandor coming to her rescue) and Mya Stone. Then later in the chapter, she places Sandor in the marriage bed (after thinking of kissing him once again, and the author said there's more)...

And guess who is nearby, on the Quiet Isle...

[LongRider]

And when Beauty was reunited with the Beast in the film, the Beast who had become a man, they ascended to together into the light.

[LongRider]

Apologies for going slightly OT here, but I'll add a theory that I wish I could take credit for but think I found in one of the Heresy threads...I wish I could find the original thread or remember who posted it so I could give them credit for it. Hell, for all I know, I could have found it here. Anyhoo.......

The theory is that Faceless Men were heavily involved with the Summerhall Tragedy and Ghost of High Heart was sensing the FM coin that Jaqen H'gar gave to Arya, and GoHH's reaction had more to do with the FM than it did with Arya herself. I know Arya's arc is darkening while she's in Braavos being pressured to become No One, but I would like to think there's still some hope for her.

ETA: Big Nyms to the rescue?

The GoHH mentions Balon's death, which was due a FM it is believed, and Jaqen H'gar was in the Riverlands, so hmmm. But also, Arya did have a bit of blood on her hands then and revenge in her heart. She already had her prayer list going.

[Le Cygne]

The basic imagery in ASOIAF is pretty common throughout literature, light and dark, shadows and truth, ... daggers and swords... it's all the same old story, a fight for love and glory...

It's the telling that makes a good story. GRRM talks about that here:

You've got many books that have the same basic idea when you look at them... It's all in the execution. Originality is great, but it's an overrated virtue, I think. Shakespeare wasn't very original, he was just very, very good. He could write exactly the same story that... someone else had previously put down, but the way he did it elevated it to an all time classic as opposed to whatever had been before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnBvf5rFPkw

Back to BatB, Beauty makes the leap from dutiful daughter to lover and wife. There's a lot of catching and falling, Sandor catches Sansa before she can fall, and all of this takes place around her "flowering" into a woman.

At the end of La Belle et la Bete, the Beast takes Beauty in his arms and says, "We'll fly through the air. You won't be afraid, will you?" And she says, "I like being afraid ... with you." That's ooh la la they are talking about there. :leer:

Here's a review:

There is an obvious undercurrent of eroticism here, too. This is acknowledged finally when Beauty (Josette Day) tells the Beast (Jean Marais) "I like being afraid... with you."

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/reviews/la-belle-et-la-bete-film-review--cocteaus-forties-fantasy-is-still-a-thing-of-real-beauty-9035506.html

and of course, this one:

She senses his presence, and begins to react in a way that some viewers have described as fright, although it is clearly orgasmic. Before she has even seen him, she is aroused to her very depths, and a few seconds later, as she tells him she cannot marry--a Beast!--she toys with a knife that is more than a knife.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-beauty-and-the-beast-1946

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Regarding the Ghost of High Heart's words to Arya ("I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel... I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"). I agree with you guys that this isn't her usual "prophecy mode" explaining something that the GoHH has dreamed (and certainly not Arya's death), but rather a response to what she senses from Arya, smells from her (put another entry in the "sniffing things out" category). The line about "gorging on grief" is interesting, because we can ask if she's identifying the grief that Arya already bears within her, or the grief that she is going to cause. I feel so bad for Arya here! She's called cruel for imposing her very presence on the Ghost, because what she is is terrible.

And the "dark heart" line...well, I'm convinced there's a whole Heart of Darkness thing going on with Bran's storyline (with BR as Kurtz), but the Ghost's words here also make that connection to Arya (whose later storyline at the HoBaW has so many parallels with Bran's greenseer training). There's a lot of ambiguity surrounding darkness, though, the deep places of the earth, presumably like under High Heart itself. What does BR say to Bran? "Never fear the darkness, Bran. [...] The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

I love the Bran parallel and it's one of the reasons that I think that Bran and Arya are going to become closer once they reunite (or Bran shows himself to Arya). As to the interpretation of her words, I don't believe it's a reference to her death (Arya WILL survive ADOS, she will!) and I don't think it solely means that she's going to be a killer in the future. I, for one,don't believe it means that she's evil or a psychopath. I think that she was referring both to the unimaginable grief both in her past (Ned's execution as well as her horror tour of the Riverlands with Roose, Gregor and Rorge as the main attractions) and the grief she will have to face in the future (the RW and Jon's Snow's "death") and the grief she will cause to her enemies. After all, one person's hero is another person's enemy. So far she's only killed scumbags like the Tickler and Daeron, who won't be missed, but she's already caused grief to them. But she's with the FM partly because she wants to become more powerful (like Jaqen was) and avenge her family. I think that she will kill Walder Frey and many other participants of the RW at the Twins in a more refined version of the Weasel Soup-drugging most of the Castle guards to release the Northern poisoners at the Twins (including the Greatjon) and then killing many of Walder's brood with them, like Black Walder and Lothar Frey, which won't make the rest of House Frey happy.

I think Arya is a King-of-Winter type of Stark of Winterfell- a hard girl for a hard time. After all Brandon Iceyes and Theon Stark were badass Starks who made the North a better place, but they were harsh with their enemies as well. Take Theon Stark for example:

King Theon Stark, known to history as the Hungry Wolf, turned back the greatest of these threats, making common cause with the Boltons to smash the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar at the Battle of the Weeping Water. In the aftermath of his victory, King Theon raised his own fleet and crossed the narrow sea to the shores of Andalos, with Argos’s corpse lashed to the prow of his flagship. There, it is said, he took a bloody vengeance, burning a score of villages, capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept, and putting hundreds to the sword. The heads of the slain the Hungry Wolf claimed as prizes, carrying them back to Westeros and planting them on spikes along his own coasts as a warning to other would-be conquerors. (Later in his blooddrenched reign, he himself conquered Three Sisters and landed an army on the Fingers, but these conquests did not long endure. King Theon also fought the ironborn in the west, driving them from Cape Kraken and Bear Island, put down a rebellion in the Rills, and joined the Night’s Watch in an incursion beyond the Wall that broke the power of the wildlings for a generation).

Pretty badass and good for the North.....not so good for the Andals,Ironborn and Wildlings. I think Arya will be like him, but kinder and more compassionate.

[Le Cygne]

This was interesting, from Mercy:

Her true name was Mercedene, but Mercy was all anyone ever called her…

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.

Was she called Arya in her dream? She's called Arya at the end.

[LongRider]

The basic imagery in ASOIAF is pretty common throughout literature, light and dark, shadows and truth, ... daggers and swords... it's all the same old story, a fight for love and glory...

It's the telling that makes a good story. GRRM talks about that here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnBvf5rFPkw

Back to BatB, Beauty makes the leap from dutiful daughter to lover and wife. There's a lot of catching and falling, Sandor catches Sansa before she can fall, and all of this takes place around her "flowering" into a woman.

At the end of the La Belle et la Bete, the Beast takes her in his arms and says, "We'll fly through the air. You won't be afraid, will you?" And she says, "I don't mind being afraid ... with you." That's ooh la la they are talking about there. :leer:

I agree, but the book I mentioned above is one that really explained this to me. I was more familiar with Joseph Campbell's work, and of that I mostly read about 'the hero's journey.' The Beauty and Beast story is not a hero's journey and like La Belle et la Bete GRRM is telling a grown up fairy tale.

ASOIAF may be fantasy, but GRRM doesn't cut us any slack.

[Le Cygne]

BatB is indeed a hero's journey, that's part of what Campbell is talking about, too.

[LongRider]

BatB is indeed a hero's journey, that's part of what Campbell is talking about, too.

OK, I'm lost in the woods now! LOL! Is it the Beast on the Hero's journey then? As far is ASOIAF and Hero's Journey I think of Jon Snow, but am willing to consider other characters as well.

Well, I can reason this out myself, in the film the Beast dies, which of course is central to the HJ mythos. The Hero must die, literally or figuratively, in order to be reborn. Yes, I can see it now, that certainly would describe Sandor on the QI.

GRRM and EB did beat the readers over the head with that, now that you mention it.

[Le Cygne]

Sandor has his journey, but so does Sansa. Sansa is a hero, too. Beauty is on a hero's journey in BatB. It fits beautifully. All the stages of the hero's journey are met in the story.

Here's Joseph Campbell:

It’s a cycle. It’s a going and a return – that the hero cycle represents. But then it can also be seen in the simple initiation ritual where a child has to give up his childhood and become an adult - has to die to his infantile personality and psyche and come back as a self-responsible adult... To get out of that posture of dependency - psychological dependency into one of psychological self-responsibility requires a death and resurrection. And that is the basic motif of the hero journey - leaving one condition - finding the source of life to bring you forth in a richer or more mature or other condition...

The real problem is to stop primarily thinking about yourself and your own self-protection. Losing yourself, giving yourself to another. That’s a trial in itself is it not? There’s a big transformation of consciousness that’s concerned...

And what all the myths have to deal with is the transformation of consciousness. You’re thinking in this way and you have now to think in that way. Consciousness is transformed by trials. Tests or certain illuminating revelations. Trials and revelations are what it’s all about...

This is a very interesting thing about these mythological themes - the achievement of the hero is one that he is ready for. It’s really a manifestation of his character. It’s amusing the way in which the landscape and the conditions of the environment match the readiness of the hero. The adventure that he’s ready for is the one he gets...

http://billmoyers.com/spotlight/download-joseph-campbell-and-the-power-of-myth-audio/ (nice link, there's more here)

[LongRider]

Let me tease this out; the Hero must die or go underground in order to be reborn or emerge as a person who has made considerable personal growth, including finding courage and humility. (as I understand it)

Sansa has 'gone underground' once Nedd was beheaded and she became a hostage. She's submerged herself as a defense mechanism in KL, but is able to express herself more openly to the Hound. He frightens her, but never hurts her and offers what protection he is able.

Now in the Erie she is submerged again by LF insisting she be Alayne, but Sansa has shown us that she won't stay submerged for long. She is using what she learned in KL (courage) to protect her inner self and shows some humility with SR. He's a rotten child but she has some compassion for him and is developing a bond with him.

Meanwhile, she has an inner life that is hidden from others as she remembers the Hound and yearns for him and desires to make the Unkiss real.

LF is too caught up in his own cleverness to realize that what is seen on the surface of Alayne is not all there is to her. He's about to be blindsided, methinks.

[OldGimletEye]

Guys great job as usual guys. I haven't much time to read this thread as of late, but today I can catch up because I didn't go out last night and drink like Sandor hearing about bad marriage news.

Any way,

Also, on the topic of parallels to Robin Hood and his Merry men. There are definitely some there, and as this is the Anguy PQ, there is the archery tournament.

- Robin Hood won the Silver Arrow contest at Butt-dyke just outside Nottingham.

- Anguy won the Tourney of the Hand's Archery contest before becoming a member of BWB or the RL's 'Merry men'

Pretty obvious one, but again thought it worth noting. :P

- When the BWB started, Beric had gained the confidence and friendship of the smallfolk. We have covered before the extent of that network, numerous houses, hidden villages and most importantly, some River Lords, including the Vance Maester etc..... Were they just sharing meat and mead ? Or were there more important matters to discuss ? I suggest they have been planning to take back the RL's in some guise, from earlier than we can realise.

- We have various perceived leaders of the BWB. Greenbeard, Lem, Thoros, Tom, Anguy seems important etc.... And we have many ways of them receiving info. Remember that there is a huge camp outside RR due to the siege, and we know that there were ''ladies of the night'' plying their trade in said camps. Add to that the huge numbers that seem to be loyal to the ''North/ Tulley's'' or as George put it ''Wolfish.'' I feel there is ample opportunity for any info to be passed between people in the know. Add also the signal fires, there seems to be a tightknit network.

-I agree that the variety of people in their network was a smart move and they have been very efficient at making connections, and it is evident also with the variety of places they go to as well. Surely, there are many people and places we don't know of or don't know of yet as well. They have come along way since riding out on orders from Ned and in the name of King Robert, that's for damn sure.

I’ll say one thing, the BWB has a wide variety of allies. Which, I might add, is mad smart!

Since then, Mesha Heddle's nieces have re-opened the Inn as an orphanage. Brienne, Pod + co travel there, where they find Gendry working as a Smith. The Inn is now connected to the BWB, they fight and defeat the Brave Companions there, claiming the Hound's Helm from them.

If nothing else the Inn has been an important place geographically and could perhaps be so again ?"

These comments got me thinking about the small folk in the Riverlands. I think there is often a general opinion on this board that the small folk really don't matter. But, I tend to think the small folk can matter a great deal if they get pushed around enough. We know for example, from TWOIAF, that the small folk in Dorne played a big part in resisting Daeron I. In fact, the liberation of Dorne after his conquest appears to have been initiated by the small folk. In AFFC, Jaime thinks about how Arthur Dayne managed to get the support of the small folk. We also get in AFFC, from one of Jaime's chapters, how the lords are complaining because the small folk seem to be offering what I would call “passive resistance”.

At any rate, I guess my questions would be:

1. 
   

   Will the BWB still be able to maintain a good relationship with the small folk?

   
   
   
2. 
   

   And what kind of role will the small folk play in the Riverlands?

   
   
   

Thoughts? Also, I didn't mean to change the current conversation. So please no need to answer right away, I just offer it up for future consideration. And if there has been some discussion about these things, and I forgot about it, I apologize.

[Hrafntýr]

Apologies for going slightly OT here, but I'll add a theory that I wish I could take credit for but think I found in one of the Heresy threads...I wish I could find the original thread or remember who posted it so I could give them credit for it. Hell, for all I know, I could have found it here. Anyhoo.......

The theory is that Faceless Men were heavily involved with the Summerhall Tragedy and Ghost of High Heart was sensing the FM coin that Jaqen H'gar gave to Arya, and GoHH's reaction had more to do with the FM than it did with Arya herself. I know Arya's arc is darkening while she's in Braavos being pressured to become No One, but I would like to think there's still some hope for her.

ETA: Big Nyms to the rescue?

First, I'm really glad that you reminded us that Arya is transporting that coin along with her throughout the riverlands. There's another Object to add to the list, booknerd!

As for the Faceless and the GoHH and Summerhall: although my gut tells me that the death that the Ghost is sniffing out on Arya is as interpreted by The Wolf Lord's Daughter, it IS nevertheless intriguing that the doors and the chairs of the "council chamber" of the House of Black and White feature weirwood. [i've got a personal crackpot that the Faceless learned the trick that would make possible the Doom from skinchangers at Hardhome, but that's far away from the Riverlands Web!]

I love the Bran parallel and it's one of the reasons that I think that Bran and Arya are going to become closer once they reunite (or Bran shows himself to Arya). As to the interpretation of her words, I don't believe it's a reference to her death (Arya WILL survive ADOS, she will!) and I don't think it solely means that she's going to be a killer in the future. I, for one,don't believe it means that she's evil or a psychopath. I think that she was referring both to the unimaginable grief both in her past (Ned's execution as well as her horror tour of the Riverlands with Roose, Gregor and Rorge as the main attractions) and the grief she will have to face in the future (the RW and Jon's Snow's "death") and the grief she will cause to her enemies. After all, one person's hero is another person's enemy. So far she's only killed scumbags like the Tickler and Daeron, who won't be missed, but she's already caused grief to them. But she's with the FM partly because she wants to become more powerful (like Jaqen was) and avenge her family. I think that she will kill Walder Frey and many other participants of the RW at the Twins in a more refined version of the Weasel Soup-drugging most of the Castle guards to release the Northern poisoners at the Twins (including the Greatjon) and then killing many of Walder's brood with them, like Black Walder and Lothar Frey, which won't make the rest of House Frey happy.

I think Arya is a King-of-Winter type of Stark of Winterfell- a hard girl for a hard time. After all Brandon Iceyes and Theon Stark were badass Starks who made the North a better place, but they were harsh with their enemies as well. Take Theon Stark for example:

King Theon Stark, known to history as the Hungry Wolf, turned back the greatest of these threats, making common cause with the Boltons to smash the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar at the Battle of the Weeping Water. In the aftermath of his victory, King Theon raised his own fleet and crossed the narrow sea to the shores of Andalos, with Argos’s corpse lashed to the prow of his flagship. There, it is said, he took a bloody vengeance, burning a score of villages, capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept, and putting hundreds to the sword. The heads of the slain the Hungry Wolf claimed as prizes, carrying them back to Westeros and planting them on spikes along his own coasts as a warning to other would-be conquerors. (Later in his blooddrenched reign, he himself conquered Three Sisters and landed an army on the Fingers, but these conquests did not long endure. King Theon also fought the ironborn in the west, driving them from Cape Kraken and Bear Island, put down a rebellion in the Rills, and joined the Night’s Watch in an incursion beyond the Wall that broke the power of the wildlings for a generation).

Pretty badass and good for the North.....not so good for the Andals,Ironborn and Wildlings. I think Arya will be like him, but kinder and more compassionate.

Really good stuff here! This is the same set of issues I had in mind when mentioning the ambiguity surrounding dark/light, high/low, which I do not think will clearly equate to good/evil as in many traditional heroic tales. The dark may well be full of terrors, but it may be what is needed, and it may be that characters to whom we're attached will take on dark and terrible roles, roles that serve some larger cosmic purpose, maybe even bringing on a destruction that enables something new to begin.

And OldGimletEye: the role of the smallfolk in the Dornish liberation caught my attention as well, though Dorne is something of a special case in that it seems to have a sense of cultural unity or even quasi-nationalism that we don't see elsewhere (except possibly in the North), and to my mind not in the Riverlands. However, the "old" BwB did seem to have a lot of support among the smallfolk, though it's hard to say if that's been maintained under the leadership of LS. One could imagine that new leadership under the Blackfish might revitalize and mobilize smallfolk support for some sort of political ends. Though honestly, it seems like survival is going to be of primary importance, now that winter has arrived.

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~~~

And OldGimletEye: the role of the smallfolk in the Dornish liberation caught my attention as well, though Dorne is something of a special case in that it seems to have a sense of cultural unity or even quasi-nationalism that we don't see elsewhere (except possibly in the North), and to my mind not in the Riverlands. However, the "old" BwB did seem to have a lot of support among the smallfolk, though it's hard to say if that's been maintained under the leadership of LS. One could imagine that new leadership under the Blackfish might revitalize and mobilize smallfolk support for some sort of political ends. Though honestly, it seems like survival is going to be of primary importance, now that winter has arrived.

There are some good points here. . I think some of the BWB can stay on good terms if they can provide something for them as winter arrives and increases. The Dorne rebels had clearly defined foe, where I don't really see that in the RL's currently. What we have seen in ASOIAF so far is the Sparrows and other radical religious folk have stirred up some of the common folk on the Kingsroad and in KL. In KL, that's different as the royals are there and they can focus their deprivations towards the Red Keep.

The other uprising I was reminded of by OGE's post was the killing of the dragon's in the dragon pit during the Dance of Dragons conflicts. Again, there was a radical 'holy' man who rallied the people by tapping into their rage.

With Cersei and Marge facing trials and the still unknown murders of Kevan and Pycelle, which will cause more chaos I think, I just don't see an uprising in the works.