The Riverlands Web V.5

[Booknerd2]

Guys great job as usual guys. I haven't much time to read this thread as of late, but today I can catch up because I didn't go out last night and drink like Sandor hearing about bad marriage news.

Any way,

These comments got me thinking about the small folk in the Riverlands. I think there is often a general opinion on this board that the small folk really don't matter. But, I tend to think the small folk can matter a great deal if they get pushed around enough. We know for example, from TWOIAF, that the small folk in Dorne played a big part in resisting Daeron I. In fact, the liberation of Dorne after his conquest appears to have been initiated by the small folk. In AFFC, Jaime thinks about how Arthur Dayne managed to get the support of the small folk. We also get in AFFC, from one of Jaime's chapters, how the lords are complaining because the small folk seem to be offering what I would call “passive resistance”.

At any rate, I guess my questions would be:

1. Will the BWB still be able to maintain a good relationship with the small folk?

2. And what kind of role will the small folk play in the Riverlands?

Thoughts? Also, I didn't mean to change the current conversation. So please no need to answer right away, I just offer it up for future consideration. And if there has been some discussion about these things, and I forgot about it, I apologize.

I love the wording "passive resistance." I think that's what has been going and it will continue.

The small folk has the whole strength in numbers thing which benefits the BWB when they operate. There are so many, they blend in inconspicuously, and they won't talk. Like I said before too, the BWB has been working out because they don't have all their eggs in one basket. The small folk help, they have a variety of people that pass on info, but probably the best thing is they keep quiet. There are people that not only know where they are, where they are going, but could also id members by face and name, or even point out where the BWB is (meaning some of the places where they go, and by now, probably they could even point out, if they were so inclined, to those wishing to crush the BWB where the orphanage is and what is going on there. That could be too why they don't stay there long and keep Gendry a smith there, to work and watch over things, and the Heddles are ok there too because their relatives always ran that place in recent years. But of course, I am sure Gendry is there as the one to most likely id Arya the best out of anyone. Let's not all forget Tom's wink and song and what other BWB's observed during the Featherbed Song at Lady Smallwood's. They know he is bummed about Arya being taken. )

But also I have paid attention a bit to him making that sword and telling Brienne about it. He may, after a long time of no-show Arya, be ready to bust out of the orphanage a bit more now. That may even be a hint the BWB are planning something, ( which we all surmised anyway) and Gendry WILL now have need of a sword. Though I am with others too that believe that in the end, it will be wielding a hammer like Robert that he will be known for, and more comfortable with that too.

But BWB has their agendas, but it has probably become a grassroots Riverlands thing to many by now. But having nobles, small folk, whores, even the woods witch, helping, they have a unique advantage. So, they have that aspect and now we even have the Tom example that they are working on special infiltration jobs, and who knows how many more contacts were made or were helping that we didn't know about. I thought of too how the BWB is in King Robert's name, and Robert had the same thing going on for him at Stoney Sept. Nobody gave him up until he was ready to leave and get out and about.

If anything, with times getting tougher before they get better, and with winter coming and even more trouble on the horizon, I think the small folk will be even more adamant about aiding BWB as they can.

I think many have the rationale "hey, there are so many of us, let us do what we can." And BWB seems to maybe compensate where they can. And then there is the Lady Smallwood rationale. "Well, keep on going, I haven't been caught yet so…"But she did make sure at the start of the WOT5K's that her daughter got out of the area and to safety.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Great work over New Year bookie ! Sorry I wasn't more active, hectic week. I've enjoyed reading and catching up, there have been some really good posts, and I like the discussion from OGE's post. My thoughts will follow, just addressing a couple of things.

First off, there has been some good music mentioned on this thread [ bookie - Le Cygne ], but bookie, Pantera confirms any similar music tastes we may have, and loved that nod. Great band. [ I'm a keen Iron Maiden fan, and now find myself looking through song titles for appropriate parallels ! ] ^_^ Should probably leave that alone.

To add to that, Winteriscoming.net [ sorry, can't link.] has released a story that GOT and HBO plan some sort of ''music mixtape'' to be released, I think coinciding with next season, as they did last season. Anyhow, it's been confirmed that [ in particular ] Anthrax and Killswitch Engage will appear on the album. I thought this funny after Le Cygne's mention of the '' RL's 80's mix tape !'' :D

[Dya of Oldstones]

First, I'm really glad that you reminded us that Arya is transporting that coin along with her throughout the riverlands. There's another Object to add to the list, booknerd!

As for the Faceless and the GoHH and Summerhall: although my gut tells me that the death that the Ghost is sniffing out on Arya is as interpreted by The Wolf Lord's Daughter, it IS nevertheless intriguing that the doors and the chairs of the "council chamber" of the House of Black and White feature weirwood. [i've got a personal crackpot that the Faceless learned the trick that would make possible the Doom from skinchangers at Hardhome, but that's far away from the Riverlands Web!]

Really good stuff here! This is the same set of issues I had in mind when mentioning the ambiguity surrounding dark/light, high/low, which I do not think will clearly equate to good/evil as in many traditional heroic tales. The dark may well be full of terrors, but it may be what is needed, and it may be that characters to whom we're attached will take on dark and terrible roles, roles that serve some larger cosmic purpose, maybe even bringing on a destruction that enables something new to begin.

That had me curious as well since I don't think Arya was the first person GoHH encountered who had to kill someone. I didn't want to get too far off track since FM aren't directly part of the Web but since it's Arya we're talking about, I was hoping to glean some further insight into her arc and why GoHH had such a strong reaction to her.

As far as the dark/light and good/evil thing, I do feel like we have a few characters who fit into more of the traditional villain type but the list is much shorter than in most fantasy stories. I still haven't made up my mind how much of no good the Faceless Men are up to, and so far Littlefinger is the only "mentor" for the Stark children I don't see any potential for grey in.

[Booknerd2]

Great work over New Year bookie ! Sorry I wasn't more active, hectic week. I've enjoyed reading and catching up, there have been some really good posts, and I like the discussion from OGE's post. My thoughts will follow, just addressing a couple of things.

First off, there has been some good music mentioned on this thread [ bookie - Le Cygne ], but bookie, Pantera confirms any similar music tastes we may have, and loved that nod. Great band. [ I'm a keen Iron Maiden fan, and now find myself looking through song titles for appropriate parallels ! ] ^_^ Should probably leave that alone.

To add to that, Winteriscoming.net [ sorry, can't link.] has released a story that GOT and HBO plan some sort of ''music mixtape'' to be released, I think coinciding with next season, as they did last season. Anyhow, it's been confirmed that [ in particular ] Anthrax and Killswitch Engage will appear on the album. I thought this funny after Le Cygne's mention of the '' RL's 80's mix tape !'' :D

I saw that about the mix tape..awesome!

We need a an emoticon with a head banging. LOL!

Yeah, Out ta Get Me makes me laugh because I thought of Stranger when I had to type a QI analysis. I do love G'nR and Pantera since forever and they remind me of the pissed-offedness of Sandor and Stranger and is so reflective. Bound to come out. Youtube is wonderful to see people's videos and snippets of some very old shows and so fun to remember the ones I went to. Those two, two of my favorites, were some of the best I went to.

Now I love my old school stuff, and I am very picky and particular after that period and especially with newer stuff. But that Volbeat "A Warrior's Call" was on the radio while I was in the car driving one day, and automatically as I took it in, it reminded me of Sandor and Stranger. I heard the "feel the fire" part and I laughed. That was a while ago, but whenever it comes on I think of them and it cracks me up. Especially poor Stranger fighting off anyone that comes near him in the stables…and of course how Sandor is very much drawn in parallels to the Warrior and the Stranger the most, of the 7 gods of the Faith, in the series.

[OldGimletEye]

And OldGimletEye: the role of the smallfolk in the Dornish liberation caught my attention as well, though Dorne is something of a special case in that it seems to have a sense of cultural unity or even quasi-nationalism that we don't see elsewhere (except possibly in the North), and to my mind not in the Riverlands. However, the "old" BwB did seem to have a lot of support among the smallfolk, though it's hard to say if that's been maintained under the leadership of LS. One could imagine that new leadership under the Blackfish might revitalize and mobilize smallfolk support for some sort of political ends. Though honestly, it seems like survival is going to be of primary importance, now that winter has arrived.

There are some good points here. . I think some of the BWB can stay on good terms if they can provide something for them as winter arrives and increases. The Dorne rebels had clearly defined foe, where I don't really see that in the RL's currently. What we have seen in ASOIAF so far is the Sparrows and other radical religious folk have stirred up some of the common folk on the Kingsroad and in KL. In KL, that's different as the royals are there and they can focus their deprivations towards the Red Keep.

The other uprising I was reminded of by OGE's post was the killing of the dragon's in the dragon pit during the Dance of Dragons conflicts. Again, there was a radical 'holy' man who rallied the people by tapping into their rage.

With Cersei and Marge facing trials and the still unknown murders of Kevan and Pycelle, which will cause more chaos I think, I just don't see an uprising in the works.

I love the wording "passive resistance." I think that's what has been going and it will continue.

The small folk has the whole strength in numbers thing which benefits the BWB when they operate. There are so many, they blend in inconspicuously, and they won't talk. Like I said before too, the BWB has been working out because they don't have all their eggs in one basket. The small folk help, they have a variety of people that pass on info, but probably the best thing is they keep quiet. There are people that not only know where they are, where they are going, but could also id members by face and name, or even point out where the BWB is (meaning some of the places where they go, and by now, probably they could even point out, if they were so inclined, to those wishing to crush the BWB where the orphanage is and what is going on there. That could be too why they don't stay there long and keep Gendry a smith there, to work and watch over things, and the Heddles are ok there too because their relatives always ran that place in recent years. But of course, I am sure Gendry is there as the one to most likely id Arya the best out of anyone. Let's not all forget Tom's wink and song and what other BWB's observed during the Featherbed Song at Lady Smallwood's. They know he is bummed about Arya being taken. )

But also I have paid attention a bit to him making that sword and telling Brienne about it. He may, after a long time of no-show Arya, be ready to bust out of the orphanage a bit more now. That may even be a hint the BWB are planning something, ( which we all surmised anyway) and Gendry WILL now have need of a sword. Though I am with others too that believe that in the end, it will be wielding a hammer like Robert that he will be known for, and more comfortable with that too.

But BWB has their agendas, but it has probably become a grassroots Riverlands thing to many by now. But having nobles, small folk, whores, even the woods witch, helping, they have a unique advantage. So, they have that aspect and now we even have the Tom example that they are working on special infiltration jobs, and who knows how many more contacts were made or were helping that we didn't know about. I thought of too how the BWB is in King Robert's name, and Robert had the same thing going on for him at Stoney Sept. Nobody gave him up until he was ready to leave and get out and about.

If anything, with times getting tougher before they get better, and with winter coming and even more trouble on the horizon, I think the small folk will be even more adamant about aiding BWB as they can.

I think many have the rationale "hey, there are so many of us, let us do what we can." And BWB seems to maybe compensate where they can. And then there is the Lady Smallwood rationale. "Well, keep on going, I haven't been caught yet so…"But she did make sure at the start of the WOT5K's that her daughter got out of the area and to safety.

Thanks guys for all your responses. I found them all interesting.

[Booknerd2]

And I do worry…the thought has crossed my mind.

If there was ever a snitch around RR, or even the Twins and RL in general, and times are desperate, they need food, money, or want to kiss some Lannister or Frey ass for some personal gain...

"Oh, by the way, that musician is in cahoots with the BWB…or check that Inn out"…or something else.

(bag with gold coins is handed off.)

I think about that. Nothing is safe. But so far that hasn't happened. And we still don't know what the hell Harwin, Anguy, and maybe others are doing or are going to do.

[LongRider]

I haven't thought of a snitch. Thanks! Now I'll be worrying about that! LOL! (gold can make people do stupid things tho)

[Booknerd2]

I haven't thought of a snitch. Thanks! Now I'll be worrying about that! LOL! (gold can make people do stupid things tho)

I thought too about if eventually word spreads about who Lady Stoneheart really is…right now I am thinking that when they go meet people or move, she doesn't come. Meaning she is maybe not that mobile or hasn't been.

But enough have seen her. And the more people get hanged and the more they do, people will want to know who the hooded lady is.

Crap, I do it to myself. lol! Stressful...

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Guys great job as usual guys. I haven't much time to read this thread as of late, but today I can catch up because I didn't go out last night and drink like Sandor hearing about bad marriage news.

These comments got me thinking about the small folk in the Riverlands. I think there is often a general opinion on this board that the small folk really don't matter. But, I tend to think the small folk can matter a great deal if they get pushed around enough. We know for example, from TWOIAF, that the small folk in Dorne played a big part in resisting Daeron I. In fact, the liberation of Dorne after his conquest appears to have been initiated by the small folk. In AFFC, Jaime thinks about how Arthur Dayne managed to get the support of the small folk. We also get in AFFC, from one of Jaime's chapters, how the lords are complaining because the small folk seem to be offering what I would call “passive resistance”.

At any rate, I guess my questions would be:

• Will the BWB still be able to maintain a good relationship with the small folk?
• And what kind of role will the small folk play in the Riverlands?

Thoughts? Also, I didn't mean to change the current conversation. So please no need to answer right away, I just offer it up for future consideration. And if there has been some discussion about these things, and I forgot about it, I apologize.

Nice post OGE. We're getting ever closer to sussing out the BWB, but still a way to go I fear.

1st bold.] That's a good point. I think GRRM is playing with different storylines/parallels. Remember that Arthur Dayne only gained the support of the small folk after he realised that the Kingswood Brotherhood had their full support, and were harbouring them. And it was key to victory, only then could Ser Arthur prevail.

So the KB had their support first, and lost it. There are some parallels between the KB + BWB for sure, to perhaps be explored. So we are currently in the position of Jaime trying to emulate AD, and gain back the support of the small folk. Although diplomatic in his approach, I don't think it's going so well. [ releasing the prisoners to walk the KR was ill advised I feel !] ;)

1stbold Question.] I think a lot of the small folk [ or their Lords.] are already well into whatever they are planning with the BWB. As you've mentioned winter is basically here, and if there is a plan to reinstate some RL power, then they best get it done quick ! Although I think all the clues are there for a quick conclusion, quite how and who, I'm not so sure.

So in answer to your question, I feel there is already a bond between the Riverlords and BWB, and they are working on a plan.[ this could include for the small folk, lands reclaimed - housing etc.] I think it's safe to assume that the small folk would see this as progression from Lannister/Frey rule, and are willing to back the cause. [ also a lot of the small folk will follow their Lords, or rebel against an unfair crown.] Some thoughts to back this up in answer to your second question.

2nd bold question.] What role will the Small Folk play ? Again, good question and hard to pin down exactly. They have been helping already, a lot, but hard to predict their next move. There is the ambush of Edmure Tully and Jayne Westerling's entourage to consider, they will surely need more men than just the named players in the series to win out there !

And then there is the matter of any ambush on the released prisoners travelling the KR. Again I expect there to be many men in tow with whoever leads that sortie. And possibly more plans in action ? Who knows ? :dunno: Definitely, many small folk involved I reckon.

Add to that any possible RW.2, and the re-taking of RR, and IMHO, they have a lot of use for the small folk.

Also, after some research, [ GNC Riverlands ] it seems that with Jaime going with Brienne, and leaving his RL hostages [ Peage, Blackwood, etc..] although no choice, he made an error. As long as the prisoners on the KR are freed, and the squires somehow retrieved, the crown/Lannisters have significantly less hold over the RL houses as they would have had, as they hold no more hostages. Therefore strengthening the RL's cause greatly. And possibly Piper + Vance back together. Yey ! ;) And the Greatjon out.

Maybe wishful thinking, but it's all there, and definitely worth considering. :D

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I saw that about the mix tape..awesome!

We need a an emoticon with a head banging. LOL!

Yeah, Out ta Get Me makes me laugh because I thought of Stranger when I had to type a QI analysis. I do love G'nR and Pantera since forever and they remind me of the pissed-offedness of Sandor and Stranger and is so reflective. Bound to come out. Youtube is wonderful to see people's videos and snippets of some very old shows and so fun to remember the ones I went to. Those two, two of my favorites, were some of the best I went to.

Now I love my old school stuff, and I am very picky and particular after that period and especially with newer stuff. But that Volbeat "A Warrior's Call" was on the radio while I was in the car driving one day, and automatically as I took it in, it reminded me of Sandor and Stranger. I heard the "feel the fire" part and I laughed. That was a while ago, but whenever it comes on I think of them and it cracks me up. Especially poor Stranger fighting off anyone that comes near him in the stables…and of course how Sandor is very much drawn in parallels to the Warrior and the Stranger the most, of the 7 gods of the Faith, in the series.

Ha ! A head banging emoticon, that would be great !

I love my old school stuff, I see Maiden whenever possible. Although I've seen a lot of bands I wanted to see, GnR and Pantera are sadly not on my list, I envy you those gigs. However, I've had plenty of nights/gigs and festivals that were great, and love the scene ! Look forward to gigging 2015 !

[OldGimletEye]

Nice post OGE. We're getting ever closer to sussing out the BWB, but still a way to go I fear.

1st bold.] That's a good point. I think GRRM is playing with different storylines/parallels. Remember that Arthur Dayne only gained the support of the small folk after he realised that the Kingswood Brotherhood had their full support, and were harbouring them. And it was key to victory, only then could Ser Arthur prevail.

So the KB had their support first, and lost it. There are some parallels between the KB + BWB for sure, to perhaps be explored. So we are currently in the position of Jaime trying to emulate AD, and gain back the support of the small folk. Although diplomatic in his approach, I don't think it's going so well. [ releasing the prisoners to walk the KR was ill advised I feel !] ;)

1stbold Question.] I think a lot of the small folk [ or their Lords.] are already well into whatever they are planning with the BWB. As you've mentioned winter is basically here, and if there is a plan to reinstate some RL power, then they best get it done quick ! Although I think all the clues are there for a quick conclusion, quite how and who, I'm not so sure.

So in answer to your question, I feel there is already a bond between the Riverlords and BWB, and they are working on a plan.[ this could include for the small folk, lands reclaimed - housing etc.] I think it's safe to assume that the small folk would see this as progression from Lannister/Frey rule, and are willing to back the cause. [ also a lot of the small folk will follow their Lords, or rebel against an unfair crown.] Some thoughts to back this up in answer to your second question.

2nd bold question.] What role will the Small Folk play ? Again, good question and hard to pin down exactly. They have been helping already, a lot, but hard to predict their next move. There is the ambush of Edmure Tully and Jayne Westerling's entourage to consider, they will surely need more men than just the named players in the series to win out there !

And then there is the matter of any ambush on the released prisoners travelling the KR. Again I expect there to be many men in tow with whoever leads that sortie. And possibly more plans in action ? Who knows ? :dunno: Definitely, many small folk involved I reckon.

Add to that any possible RW.2, and the re-taking of RR, and IMHO, they have a lot of use for the small folk.

Also, after some research, [ GNC Riverlands ] it seems that with Jaime going with Brienne, and leaving his RL hostages [ Peage, Blackwood, etc..] although no choice, he made an error. As long as the prisoners on the KR are freed, and the squires somehow retrieved, the crown/Lannisters have significantly less hold over the RL houses as they would have had, as they hold no more hostages. Therefore strengthening the RL's cause greatly. And possibly Piper + Vance back together. Yey ! ;) And the Greatjon out.

Maybe wishful thinking, but it's all there, and definitely worth considering. :D

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

[Booknerd2]

Oh, man, I think we are going to have to focus a PQ on the small folk or include them with the big BWB write up...

I was pondering the differences and some similarities between KB and BWB.

Jaime is smart to realize how Arthur went about gaining allegiance, but I don't think these small folk have any reason not to back BWB or betray them for many reason. I think especially because they have been burned to badly by Lannisters and Freys, and they can't count on anyone to be protected or to survive what is ahead, so the BWB has been proactive towards them the most. Especially stuff out of their control like the winter coming and all that entails and the hard times getting harder, and some of the Lannister/Freys have made it just that more difficult for them, even before the bad

season starts.

And I think I can word this better…still thinking. I have to come back to this.

But like my last post, you always worry that their is that one traitor that doesn't care…

And the thing I wait for to is what happens next when Jaime and Brienne, well, if, they walk right into the BWB camp, is going to mean a lot. He is the sticking point. He is the reason Brienne is in massive trouble with them. She was in with Cat, until her association with Jaime. We know Thoros is pissed, but we don't know how anyone else feels, and it certainly looks like the are going ahead with their business despite his feelings.

Hard to read.

[OldGimletEye]

Oh, man, I think we are going to have to focus a PQ on the small folk or include them with the big BWB write up...

I was pondering the differences and some similarities between KB and BWB.

Jaime is smart to realize how Arthur went about gaining allegiance, but I don't think these small folk have any reason not to back BWB or betray them for many reason. I think especially because they have been burned to badly by Lannisters and Freys, and they can't count on anyone to be protected or to survive what is ahead, so the BWB has been proactive towards them the most. Especially stuff out of their control like the winter coming and all that entails and the hard times getting harder, and some of the Lannister/Freys have made it just that more difficult for them, even before the bad

season starts.

And I think I can word this better…still thinking. I have to come back to this.

But like my last post, you always worry that their is that one traitor that doesn't care…

And the thing I wait for to is what happens next when Jaime and Brienne, well, if, they walk right into the BWB camp, is going to mean a lot. He is the sticking point. He is the reason Brienne is in massive trouble with them. She was in with Cat, until her association with Jaime. We know Thoros is pissed, but we don't know how anyone else feels, and it certainly looks like the are going ahead with their business despite his feelings.

Hard to read.

When Tywin Lannister invaded the Riverlands, he terrorized the small folk in order to lure Edmure into dividing his forces, a tactic that Edmure fell for. While Tywin's tactics might have brought him short term victories, perhaps in the end it will have long term negative strategic consequences, as the small folk will resist Lannister and Frey rule.

I think some see Tywin's tactics as just being “necessary” in order to win a military victory in the Riverlands. But, just perhaps, Tywin's ruthlessness wasn't a good strategy after all, at least in the long run. I have always felt that Tywin, like Walder Frey, has always suffered from a bit of short termism.

[Booknerd2]

And here I go again with Thoros…and people made so many great posts today, the brain is whirring and even going back to older things we pondered.

So Thoros is pretty vocal to Brienne, an outsider, regarding his displeasure and internal personal problems within BWB. Which I don't think is ever a good idea. We know Brienne is great, but he doesn't, not to the extent we do. So either he had to vent, or doesn't give a crap anymore, or he really thought, "hey, you'll be hanging soon so from my lips to your ears…that, er, won't be working soon."???

Also, not good if LS or any other BWB got wind of it, I would think? LS can be touchy...

So, I am still not sure how much or if at all Thoros has made the other members aware of his dissonance.

[Dya of Oldstones]

When Tywin Lannister invaded the Riverlands, he terrorized the small folk in order to lure Edmure into dividing his forces, a tactic that Edmure fell for. While Tywin's tactics might have brought him short term victories, perhaps in the end it will have long term negative strategic consequences, as the small folk will resistance Lannister and Frey rule.

I think some see Tywin's tactics as just being “necessary” in order to win a military victory in the Riverlands. But, just perhaps, Tywin's ruthlessness wasn't a good strategy after all, at least in the long run. I have always felt that Tywin, like Walder Frey, has always suffered from a bit of short termism.

Can't remember if this is show only or not but Edmure also caught some flak from Blackfish because they wanted to lure the Lannister forces along with Gregor Clegane into a trap. You're dead on right about Tywin and along with his arrogance was his biggest downfall, and both he and Walder Frey are leaving behind a goat rope of a legacy for their descendents. ;) Gotta give you credit for reminding me of goat rope several posts back. :)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

When Tywin Lannister invaded the Riverlands, he terrorized the small folk in order to lure Edmure into dividing his forces, a tactic that Edmure fell for. While Tywin's tactics might have brought him short term victories, perhaps in the end it will have long term negative strategic consequences, as the small folk will resist Lannister and Frey rule.

I think some see Tywin's tactics as just being “necessary” in order to win a military victory in the Riverlands. But, just perhaps, Tywin's ruthlessness wasn't a good strategy after all, at least in the long run. I have always felt that Tywin, like Walder Frey, has always suffered from a bit of short termism.

Good point ! Add to that any parallels we [ Or BWB.] can gain from the Kingswood Brotherhood episode. Perhaps the BWB have learnt some lessons from the history, the small folk are essential to keep on your side. If so, Jaime only just contemplating this fact, may be too late, and in vain.

[Booknerd2]

When Tywin Lannister invaded the Riverlands, he terrorized the small folk in order to lure Edmure into dividing his forces, a tactic that Edmure fell for. While Tywin's tactics might have brought him short term victories, perhaps in the end it will have long term negative strategic consequences, as the small folk will resist Lannister and Frey rule.

I think some see Tywin's tactics as just being “necessary” in order to win a military victory in the Riverlands. But, just perhaps, Tywin's ruthlessness wasn't a good strategy after all, at least in the long run. I have always felt that Tywin, like Walder Frey, has always suffered from a bit of short termism.

Yeah, Tywin's game is to act swift and come down hard, not realizing that that will egg some people on, in the right or the most dire circumstances, to rebel and take the risk in resisting even more. Especially if they are that angry and have nothing to lose.

There have been so many rulers and leaders in history that haven't accounted for that, and it brought their demise.

The game was changing even before he died. The small folk know that times are going to get almost impossible to survive, so I don't think they will back anyone that burned them. It is going to make people react a certain way and stick with the best option they have, which the untrustworthy Lannisters and Freys are not the way to go.

Plus, they might feel confident if most know how big the BWB network is and that they have many of the Riverlanders behind them, (from all walks of life too)

Also, there are those that, even though it may not be their families or that personal to them, I think they will be disgusted too by the breach of guest right and the luring and ambushing of a variety of people from House Tully, Stark, etc. and I think they will have just too many reasons now to know that the Lannister-Frey alliance can't be trusted by them for anything.

And like was said earlier, I have to agree, that Jaime so far is still not handling this RL thing very well. He already pissed off even more people than he had to, and it makes me wonder what the hell kind of outcome he is expecting, and if it has crossed his mind, he better look over his shoulder for treachery.

[Booknerd2]

Can't remember if this is show only or not but Edmure also caught some flak from Blackfish because they wanted to lure the Lannister forces along with Gregor Clegane into a trap. You're dead on right about Tywin and along with his arrogance was his biggest downfall, and both he and Walder Frey are leaving behind a goat rope of a legacy for their descendents. ;) Gotta give you credit for reminding me of goat rope several posts back. :)

Yeah, you have to wonder how Walder or Tywin or Roose ever figured out that their families would ever be able to scramble out of the fall out and clear any bad blood down the road and with future generations with machinations so vile. Very short-sighted among the other terrible things about it.

[OldGimletEye]

Can't remember if this is show only or not but Edmure also caught some flak from Blackfish because they wanted to lure the Lannister forces along with Gregor Clegane into a trap. You're dead on right about Tywin and along with his arrogance was his biggest downfall, and both he and Walder Frey are leaving behind a goat rope of a legacy for their descendents. ;) Gotta give you credit for reminding me of goat rope several posts back. :)

In my opinion, that was mostly on Robb for failing to give a clear operation order. It's my opinion that failing to give a clear op order will generally lead to a real goat rope or a Charlie Foxtrot. Poor Edmure got the Blue Falcon from Robb. :D

[Dya of Oldstones]

In my opinion, that was mostly on Robb for failing to give a clear operation order. It's my opinion that failing to give a clear op order will generally lead to a real goat rope or a Charlie Foxtrot. Poor Edmure got the Blue Falcon from Robb. :D

Charlie Foxtrot is right!

Yeah, you have to wonder how Walder or Tywin or Roose ever figured out that their families would ever be able to scramble out of the fall out and clear any bad blood down the road and with future generations with machinations so vile. Very short-sighted among the other terrible things about it.

More hubris than common sense. Pretty much agree with what you said about Jaime too...he's not Tywin but him trying the Arthur Dayne approach may be too little too late.