The Riverlands Web V.5

[Booknerd2]

Now I've thought about Anguy being with the archers, but that would mean he would have to have infiltrated at the siege of RR. Doesn't mean he couldn't have done it, but that would be a bit of a stretch. I'll look at the chapter where Jaime comes to RR and tells who is there. I've focused on the Freys and his cousin, but of course the other at the siege are described.

Also, BF may come back to RR when Ser Kevan Lannister, Jaime's cousin, marries 'his stoat', er, one of Frey's daughters at RR. There are ideas that when the Lannisters and Frey get together at RR for the wedding it will be RW2. And if that idea pans out, the BWB and BF have a good chance of making an appearance at this very important event.

I think if Anguy is there, we would not be shown it as clearly as Tom. Tom is the red alert. And I know you know this, I'm just thinking and recapping for myself out loud. lol.

There is no Jaime going: "And Jaime noted the red-haired guy with an abundance of freckles"….for example.

If this is at all possible, it is through his nickname.

If it is meant to be a tip off, it will be that author wrote specifically for Jaime to mention of all warriors, archers. Also, that really is how Anguy is known and that is his nickname. "The Archer." And if he meant us to keep him in mind...

Difficult but maybe not impossible. And bad storytelling would have been GRRM hinting at both Anguy being there and showing Tom there, and he was NOT going to do that, if this is the case, that is. Right now it seems it is just left open. We would have known immediately that something was being planned, and he wanted us to reach and find it for ourselves.

I have to read the passages again for more clarity.

Not sure, but something to look at.

[Booknerd2]

One other thing I am toying with:

If we are going to take Anguy and stick a fork in him and move him around on the plate...

Yes, he would be awesome in battle, but how would he be utilized most effectively?

Is he there to overhear things and get info, and in practicality, is he there to hit a target ( person or something else) or create a diversion, regarding specific archery skills?

I am just thinking how he would be useful to plans, IF he is there among the archers.

Again, highly speculative, but I try to keep everything on mental file.

[LongRider]

I think if Anguy is there, we would not be shown it as clearly as Tom. Tom is the red alert. And I know you know this, I'm just thinking and recapping for myself out loud. lol.

There is no Jaime going: "And Jaime noted the red-haired guy with an abundance of freckles"….for example.

If this is at all possible, it is through his nickname.

If it is meant to be a tip off, it will be that author wrote specifically for Jaime to mention of all warriors, archers. Also, that really is how Anguy is known and that is his nickname. "The Archer." And if he meant us to keep him in mind...

Difficult but maybe not impossible. And bad storytelling would have been GRRM hinting at both Anguy being there and showing Tom there, and he was NOT going to do that, if this is the case, that is. Right now it seems it is just left open. We would have known immediately that something was being planned, and he wanted us to reach and find it for ourselves.

I have to read the passages again for more clarity.

Not sure, but something to look at.

I agree, Tom may not have travelled to RR alone. And since GRRM so thoroughly describes the background of his scenes it's worth looking for clues in the siege of RR chapters.

[Booknerd2]

I agree, Tom may not have travelled to RR alone. And since GRRM so thoroughly describes the background of his scenes it's worth looking for clues in the siege of RR chapters.

I like two ideas:

1. For a big undertaking, you just don't have it all on the shoulders of one BWB operative.

2. Tom is stuck in the big house (RR) doing his thing. Anguy can't get that close. Tom has the music "excuse". So maybe you need one more, one more "mobile" guy to send back the info?

[LongRider]

I like two ideas:

1. For a big undertaking, you just don't have it all on the shoulders of one BWB operative.

2. Tom is stuck in the big house (RR) doing his thing. Anguy can't get that close. Tom has the music "excuse". So maybe you need one more, one more "mobile" guy to send back the info?

Now that's a good idea! Especially if he knows that Jaime has ordered extra archers. Whom better to fight archers than another archer, who just happens to be one of the best in Westeros.

[Booknerd2]

Oh, and another thing...

Anguy like your example knows stuff and I found another one.

I just checked out the wiki on a quick Lady Smallwood refresher.

Anguy is the one that knows/can confirm that Lady Smallwood and Tom used to be lovers.

So he knows stuff.

Also, they can both be trusted to work together, meaning maybe they trust each other.

It could be that Tom kisses and tells everyone, but I'm not so sure.

[LongRider]

Looking at the map I see Acorn Hall, Lady Smallwood's place, is not far from RR! And between Acorn Hall and RR is High Heart! We know that Lady Smallwood is friendly to the BWB. Holy shit! I think we've put some connections together.

We don't know where the BWB's cave is, but Bri was captured by them at the crossroads inn and then carried by horseback a long way to the cave. Is the cave near High Heart? High Heart is a ways from the inn but how far? A days ride? Two days?

At any rate, Acorn Hall is closer to RR than other places and could be a staging place for them and is certainly a place to gather info.

[Booknerd2]

Looking at the map I see Acorn Hall, Lady Smallwood's place, is not far from RR! And between Acorn Hall and RR is High Heart! We know that Lady Smallwood is friendly to the BWB. Holy shit! I think we've put some connections together.

We don't know where the BWB's cave is, but Bri was captured by them at the crossroads inn and then carried by horseback a long way to the cave. Is the cave near High Heart? High Heart is a ways from the inn but how far? A days ride? Two days?

At any rate, Acorn Hall is closer to RR than other places and could be a staging place for them and is certainly a place to gather info.

I have to brush up on the maps and look at a few things...

There is not too much info on Ravella Smallwood. But she made sure that she sent her daughter to safety at Oldtown at the start of the Wot5K. Also, when BWB stops there she gives them that info on where Beric is. How did she come across that? Who is she getting her info from?

I have to read that chapter again.

And yeah, it is perfect because it is a large gathering place, they are harbored by a noblewoman, and nobody thus far suspects her. She is playing a dangerous game though. And if she has, er, um, old ties to Tom, it seems they trust her and she wants to help them.

The cave has to be discussed in the future. And I started Ghost of High Heart awhile ago as PQ, but I have to get back to it.

Also, I think it is clear that their trip to Acorn Hall is not their first.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Looking at the map I see Acorn Hall, Lady Smallwood's place, is not far from RR! And between Acorn Hall and RR is High Heart! We know that Lady Smallwood is friendly to the BWB. Holy shit! I think we've put some connections together.

We don't know where the BWB's cave is, but Bri was captured by them at the crossroads inn and then carried by horseback a long way to the cave. Is the cave near High Heart? High Heart is a ways from the inn but how far? A days ride? Two days?

At any rate, Acorn Hall is closer to RR than other places and could be a staging place for them and is certainly a place to gather info.

Hey guys ! Some good chat ! You've both got me thinking, and I have some things I'd like to add.

First off, I think I've mentioned before, but if not here we go. I think it's definitely High Heart that the BWB use as their cave. We know all the Weirwood's in the south have been cut down, yet we know that HH has numerous Weirwood stumps, and on a hill, perfect for caves !

We then have the BWB, somewhere in the RL's, with Beric on a Weirwood root throne in a cave as their base. Add to that the amount of time various members of the BWB spend at the place [ eg: Lem with the Ghost of High Heart.] and I think we can make that link.

Not sure on exact location from other key areas, but that HH is their base I am confident. I hope ! :P

As for Lady Smallwood, yes, for sure that could definitely be happening.

Without replying to too many of the previous posts, I'll throw out a few of my thoughts. In no particular order....

- Who is calling the shots is almost impossible to know : What we can do is piece some of the narrative together. Darry, Piper and Vance went to KL to get support early doors, and were constantly plotting against Lannisters after that. Including Darry men that may have joined BWB since. Piper + Vance sought their own mischief, successfully. P + V go on to represent Robb + Jaime's council's. They're In a good position.

- When the BWB started, Beric had gained the confidence and friendship of the smallfolk. We have covered before the extent of that network, numerous houses, hidden villages and most importantly, some River Lords, including the Vance Maester etc..... Were they just sharing meat and mead ? Or were there more important matters to discuss ? I suggest they have been planning to take back the RL's in some guise, from earlier than we can realise.

- We have various perceived leaders of the BWB. Greenbeard, Lem, Thoros, Tom, Anguy seems important etc.... And we have many ways of them receiving info. Remember that there is a huge camp outside RR due to the siege, and we know that there were ''ladies of the night'' plying their trade in said camps. Add to that the huge numbers that seem to be loyal to the ''North/ Tulley's'' or as George put it ''Wolfish.'' I feel there is ample opportunity for any info to be passed between people in the know. Add also the signal fires, there seems to be a tightknit network.

- So to conclude, I don't think we can nail this down to any one person, and I feel the wheels were in motion well before LS entered the scene. [ She does however want to kill Frey's, and that'll work, after that, not sure. Look to the Stark's I feel ? ] :dunno:

I reckon the scheming started with Piper + Vance, and the operation has gained momentum through River Lord involvement with the BWB. And probably others. Not only are people well placed [ Tom etc..] some of these players are influencing Jaime right up to present narrative. [ Vance convincing him to go parlay with Bracken + Blackwood, where the BWB happened to be within the area.] Handy that. [ Not for Jaime.]

- I have some other stuff, but my head is blurry ! It's my B'day, and I'm slightly inebriated ! Sorry if this is a blur of nonsense ! :cheers:

[Booknerd2]

Hey guys ! Some good chat ! You've both got me thinking, and I have some things I'd like to add.

First off, I think I've mentioned before, but if not here we go. I think it's definitely High Heart that the BWB use as their cave. We know all the Weirwood's in the south have been cut down, yet we know that HH has numerous Weirwood stumps, and on a hill, perfect for caves !

We then have the BWB, somewhere in the RL's, with Beric on a Weirwood root throne in a cave as their base. Add to that the amount of time various members of the BWB spend at the place [ eg: Lem with the Ghost of High Heart.] and I think we can make that link.

Not sure on exact location from other key areas, but that HH is their base I am confident. I hope ! :P

As for Lady Smallwood, yes, for sure that could definitely be happening.

Without replying to too many of the previous posts, I'll throw out a few of my thoughts. In no particular order....

- Who is calling the shots is almost impossible to know : What we can do is piece some of the narrative together. Darry, Piper and Vance went to KL to get support early doors, and were constantly plotting against Lannisters after that. Including Darry men that may have joined BWB since. Piper + Vance sought their own mischief, successfully. P + V go on to represent Robb + Jaime's council's. They're In a good position.

- When the BWB started, Beric had gained the confidence and friendship of the smallfolk. We have covered before the extent of that network, numerous houses, hidden villages and most importantly, some River Lords, including the Vance Maester etc..... Were they just sharing meat and mead ? Or were there more important matters to discuss ? I suggest they have been planning to take back the RL's in some guise, from earlier than we can realise.

- We have various perceived leaders of the BWB. Greenbeard, Lem, Thoros, Tom, Anguy seems important etc.... And we have many ways of them receiving info. Remember that there is a huge camp outside RR due to the siege, and we know that there were ''ladies of the night'' plying their trade in said camps. Add to that the huge numbers that seem to be loyal to the ''North/ Tulley's'' or as George put it ''Wolfish.'' I feel there is ample opportunity for any info to be passed between people in the know.

- So to conclude, I don't think we can nail this down to any one person, and I feel the wheels were in motion well before LS entered the scene. [ She does however want to kill Frey's, and that'll work ! ] I feel the scheming started with Piper + Vance, and the operation has gained momentum through River Lord involvement with the BWB. And probably others. Not only are people well placed [ Tom etc..] some of these players are influencing Jaime right up to present narrative. [ Vance convincing him to go parlay with Bracken + Blackwood, where the BWB happened to be within the area.] Handy that. [ Not for Jaime.]

- I have some other stuff, but my head is blurry ! It's my B'day, and I'm slightly inebriated ! Sorry if this is a blur of nonsense ! :cheers:

Happy Birthday, Wizz! Look at you, you are partying and you still manage to check in…LOL!

Same for me. It is late here, and you included so much stuff I think I have to pull it apart and get back to it tomorrow on a rested brain.

But let me get to some stuff now.

-You have brought up Piper, Vance, Greenbeard, others,etc., so many times and we are getting to them eventually. So many damn people to get to on this thread, but their time will come. Especially because I think time is needed to investigate them some more because some of the stuff you put together with them, I've never looked into before you brought them up. So far we tackled the big guys ( Sandor, Jaime, LS, Brienne, and some of the lesser) but we will get there.

-The Ghost of High Heart PQ will be up tomorrow, so I am glad you mentioned both HH and the woods witch. Tackling those prophecies will be a pain too. Some are pretty clear as events that happened, and I think there were some that are still open to interpretation. Prophecies give me headaches.

-I agree that the variety of people in their network was a smart move and they have been very efficient at making connections, and it is evident also with the variety of places they go to as well. Surely, there are many people and places we don't know of or don't know of yet as well. They have come along way since riding out on orders from Ned and in the name of King Robert, that's for damn sure.

-I think you are right about the cave.

-I think you are right about the varied methods and "carriers" of information too. The conduit flows along and along and along, like a mass game of telephone.

-I believe too that with backgrounds from various places, strengths, and skills that many take a leadership role or initiative and work towards things they are more suited too. For example, Tom in his capacity was perfect for that RR ruse and to operate effectively.

-After Ghost of HH I want to bang out those Beric, Thoros, and Gendry PQ's. And then maybe we should get to the people you put forward and then do a massive BWB PQ after we looked a bit at everyone first. LS, Harwin, Edric, were done already but we still have people to look at individually first.

- I would not be surprised (and Lady Smallwood might in this category be the tipper like Tom was for his angle) that other nobles are assisting or are sympathetic to BWB goals too, and I think you are right that stuff was in the works before LS came along too.

Well, I think that is it for now, until tomorrow. Have a Happy Birthday!

Oh, I almost forgot. We should roll this out on holidays and birthdays. Whoah…Wolf Pack! :grouphug:

Really, I will use any excuse to do this. LOL!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Happy Birthday, Wizz! Look at you, you are partying and you still manage to check in…LOL!

Well, I think that is it for now, until tomorrow. Have a Happy Birthday!

Oh, I almost forgot. We should roll this out on holidays and birthdays. Whoah…Wolf Pack! :grouphug:

Really, I will use any excuse to do this. LOL!

Thanks bookie ! Looking at the clock, it's six hours past my B'day ! So erm..... early here ? How did that happen ? Bed. :closedeyes: Zzz

[LongRider]

Happy Birthday Wizz!!

I too am thinking the cave is under High Heart. After the siege in RR Jaime disarmed the RR bannermen and sent them home. Did Tom see some friendlies there before they left? Wouldn't that be sweet. One of the challenges of this thread is that clues about one character will be found in another character's chapter.....urrrrrh.

Am going to have to spend some time in Arya's chapters in SOS.

[Booknerd2]

Happy Birthday Wizz!!

I too am thinking the cave is under High Heart. After the siege in RR Jaime disarmed the RR bannermen and sent them home. Did Tom see some friendlies there before they left? Wouldn't that be sweet. One of the challenges of this thread is that clues about one character will be found in another character's chapter.....urrrrrh.

Am going to have to spend some time in Arya's chapters in SOS.

Yeah, the thought crossed my mind about him letting the Riverlanders go. That is something to pick apart subtly too in chapters. If there are opportunities for Tom to do things and get away with it?

The overlap of characters is killer. You have to look at everything with like 20 pairs of eyes.

Arya has been discussed on the threads in regard to other people, but next year she will be getting her own write up. Good call! Looking at her chapters is very important.

[Booknerd2]

Post Question#23 - Ghost of High Heart: Or Trying to Interpret Prophecies Gives Me High Blood Pressure

So, The Woods Witch only appears in ASOS but is mentioned later in AFFC and ADWD.

She is short in stature, has very pales skin, very long white hair, and red eyes…

She also walks with a black cane, which is not the only indicator that she is many years old.

This is someone that is very tied to old events and new events, and spans generations. She is tied to prophecies. Information about her is vague and open to interpretations, but we are able to piece things together as the series progressed, and when she is mentioned by other characters it seems there are conflicting accounts of her.

And that is when it is time to start paying attention and keep that in mind. It usually means something or we are being asked to take notice.

She sees the past and the future. She has predicted events that went along and happened in the books and we know that.

It seems BWB has consulted her before; also makes you wonder who first encountered her without running away screaming. She gives them future projections and they look to her for those tips, and also spend an overnight slumber party so she can tell them where Beric is. Now they also have Lady Smallwood that has filled them in on where Beric is.

She forecasts the deaths of Renly, Balon by FM and from an ironborn (most likely Euron) and the death of Catelyn and transformation to LS. Also, Sansa is in there too.

Now she is a bit taken aback by Arya and what she sees and how she is associated with death. Now, some take it that Arya bites it, or becomes a stone cold permanent assassin for forever, and I don’t see that. But I can articulate that the best I can later, and again only my opinion.

With these prophecies there is only so much to frustratingly work with to begin with.

Each time, in payment, she requests that Tom plays like the Jenny of Oldstones theme song, which tells us something there too. That she is most likely associated with Jenny in life at one time and all that entails. We can touch upon that but that is all background and pre AGOT, but it does get tackled in ADWD by Selmy in a discussion with Dany regarding what Jahaerys heard from this woods witch. She is the bff of Jenny that probably did not die at Summerhall and the woods witch is most likely =COTF. Well, there is the height, the red eyes are suspect, and I am sure other stuff I am forgetting about right about now, that stand out. Then later in the same book, Tyrion recalls the woods witch that is supposedly hanging in the Riverlands.

I’ll say one thing, the BWB has a wide variety of allies. Which, I might add, is mad smart!

Shall we have them in front of our face and anyone can add what they want? Many have been interpreted correctly by the forum of course. But let us take a look at some prophecies. Also, the wiki perfectly put all of these most important quotes all on one page, so here they are: Now trying to interpret prophecies causes me undue stress, but thankfully some are easier to interpret and have already come to pass.

“The old gods stir and will not let me sleep. I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more.”

– The ghost of High Heart, to Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard

“I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.”

– the ghost of High Heart, to Beric Dondarrion, Lem, and Thoros of Myr

“I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!”

– the ghost of High Heart, to Arya Stark

“... she has her own ways of knowing things, that one. The weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps.”

– Thoros of Myr, to Arya Stark

Ok, so there we are. So any comments or things of note regarding the woods witch? Any thing else that sticks out regarding the prophecies?

Also, this is the last PQ of the year! Please look later today for a little New Year’s fun.

[Le Cygne]

I found a tasty little tidbit in AFFC, when Jaime goes to Harrenhal he's talking to Shitmouth and SM tells him that Ser Gregor had named Polliver as castellan but that Polliver, Tickler and their squire was killed by the Hound.

So the gossip is Sandor killed Lannister men and Freys. And they know he wasn't the one in the Hound helm doing the rest. Seems like LSH might be thinking a little more favorably toward the dog? Just wondering what her meeting with him would be like. I tried to look after your daughters, ma'am. The pretty one and the bratty one. So maybe he leaves that last part out.

[Le Cygne]

Also, on the topic of parallels to Robin Hood and his Merry men. There are definitely some there, and as this is the Anguy PQ, there is the archery tournament.

- Robin Hood won the Silver Arrow contest at Butt-dyke just outside Nottingham.

- Anguy won the Tourney of the Hand's Archery contest before becoming a member of BWB or the RL's 'Merry men'

Pretty obvious one, but again thought it worth noting. :P

Another one in the story, Ser Robin Ryger had archers when they attacked Jaime and Brienne. Jaime hates archers: Metal glinted in their hands, and Jaime could see bows as well. Archers. He hated archers.

Brienne dropped a boulder on them: Ser Robin and his thrice-damned archers would have a long wet walk back to Riverrun...

[Booknerd2]

Update: in a few, we will start our little New Year's fun. Please remember that at any time you can tackle Anguy and Ghost of High Heart, our most recent post questions. It is just time to get the show on the road because there is a lot of stuff to cover.

Hey, we multitask here…lol!

So, in a few:

"The Riverlands Web Retrospective of 2014: Version 1"

Get ready for the funny and a lot of poking fun of Stranger today too. Stranger and Thoros and Gendry and other stuff helped us kick off the very first incarnation of our thread.

[Le Cygne]

Ok, so there we are. So any comments or things of note regarding the woods witch? Any thing else that sticks out regarding the prophecies?

Just stepping through these for discussion...

GoHH uses colorful language, but most often sigils and language directly from actual events.

1. I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. - Stannis killing Renly

a shadow - just like in the story

a burning heart - Stannis' sigil

butchering - colorful language to go with

a golden stag - Renly's sigil

2. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. - a Faceless Man hired by Euron killing Balon Greyjoy

a man without a face - a faceless man, just like in the story

a bridge that swayed and swung - just like in the story

a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings - Euron is called Crow's Eye, the drowning associated with the Ironborn

3. I dreamt of a roaring river, and a woman who was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. - Lady Stoneheart

a roaring river - the Trident, just like in the story

a woman who was a fish - Catelyn's sigil

red tears on her cheeks - cuts on her face, from grief, just like in the story

when her eyes did open - just like in the story

4. I dreamt him dead and he died, and the iron squids now turn on one another. - Greyjoys

iron squids - Greyjoy sigil

5. In the hall of kings, the goat sits alone and fevered as the great dog descends on him. - at Harrenhal, Vargo Hoat, after Brienne bit his ear off, Gregor messing with him.

hall of kings - Harrenhal

goat - Vargo Hoat's sigil

great dog - Gregor's sigil

6. I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief...I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head would burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. - Red Wedding

wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard - Grey Wind, just like in the story

a clangor, drums and horns and pipes and screams - the Red Wedding, just like in the story

little bells - Jinglebell

7. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. - Purple Wedding

a maid - Sansa

at a feast - the Purple Wedding

purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs - colorful language for poison in the hairnet

8. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow. - Snow Castle

that maid - Sansa

slaying a savage giant - colorful language, she ripped off the giant doll's head after the doll was behaving savagely

a castle built of snow - just like in the story, the snow castle she built

[Booknerd2]

Thanks! :bowdown:

Prophecies are my weakness…so awesome to break it down clearly.

The Arya comments I am not worried too much about as far as her dying or some other theories people have. Even that she will be a cold-blooded killer doomed to just be 1-D.

I think she sees events coming for her, involving people's deaths. Even maybe it is a nod to her FM time, as they are associated with death. She may even just see her anger and desire for vengeance and Arya will and has already had some revenge. But that is not all she is or will be, I believe, in totality.

[Le Cygne]

The last one (snow castle) is I think foreshadowing. In some way, perhaps Sansa and Sweetrobin will help each other kill Littlefinger.

LF (the doll) via SR destroys Winterfell - not literally, this is to suggest that LF helping Sansa is an illusion. But SR also helps her kill LF (the doll), he hands her what she needs (she grabs SR's hand, and that's how she gets to LF). And each of them are holding his body (each holds one half of the doll) as the blood (sawdust) spills out and he dies.

LF blames SR for destroying the castle. SR blames LF (the doll). SR says LF (the doll) was hurting Sansa (her castle, the castle symbolizing her virginity). There was that symbolism in the scene, LF asks to come into her castle and she says don't break it (her maidenhead), they build the tower (arousal), then she flings snow in his face (puts a stop to that).

Just some thoughts, but I think the main thing is them both holding one half of the doll as the sawdust comes out. I don't think this is all meant to be taken literally, but to be suggestive.