Tywin and Aerys tenure: Weak Monarchy and powerful Lords

[Aemond's Eye]

Come to think of that - has anyone ever considered the idea that Rodrik Stark may have become 'the Wandering Wolf' because he began his travels as a companion of Dunk and Egg after they left Winterfell...? That would be very interesting indeed...

I had not. I thought that a Stark travelling to Essos and becoming a sell sword was noteworthy enough on its own for such a nickname, but I think it also works fine that he effectively was a hedge knight prior to that, which he would be by way of accompanying Dunk & Egg for a bit. Plus as Ned's maternal grandfather, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we're introduced to him in such a way, as a subtle nod and wink to ASOIAF. Actually, I quite like this idea.

[Maia]

Maegor as Aemon's heir would have been another way to prevent Egg and his line to inherit the Iron Throne from childless Aemon, but for that we would have to assume that Aerion's faction was also solely behind the 'Aemon solution', and this does not seem to be the case. Maegor had very little support, apparently, but Aegon had many enemies. Some of them would have been Aerion's old cronies, but some of them were Egg's very own enemies, and I imagine the idea of 'King Aemon' originated with the latter.

Well, yes and no. The thing is, Westerosi often seem to confuse martial ability with virility, and the very recent example of Aerys I would have led many to expect that Aemon may have shared his uncle's disinterest in women and/or sex. And even if he did marry, it would be a crapshoot whether he'd be able to produce a healthy son. From Westerosi PoV, chances of that would seem even lower, because see above.

And also, even if agreed to by the Citadel and performed by the High Septon and Council of the Faith, etc. Aemon's being truly free from his vows and thus legitimacy of his theoretical offspring, could still always be questioned. Particularly if he left minor heirs. So, Maegor as Aemon's heir would have been an excellent consensus decision for those who wanted to prevent Aegon V. And having a ready-made heir, whose legitimacy could not be questioned, would have also strengthened the desirability of Aemon's candidacy among the undecided.

And we have to keep in mind that Lorra Royce, Beron's wife, would have been the first Southron Lady of Winterfell since Black Aly Blackwood. I'm pretty sure Lorra and Beron's children when thank Egg for what he is going to do for their mother, but other Starks might not.

I agree that Lorra being a southerner may have played a role in other Stark women's being ability to stage a power-struggle, despite her having all these many sons by Beron and the whole Sansa and Serena being passed over thing being farther in the past than originally envisioned.

OTOH, I really don't see why Donnor would need to be a lackwit or whatever. His grandmother or aunt could have had stronger influence on him than his mother regardless.

Come to think of that - has anyone ever considered the idea that Rodrik Stark may have become 'the Wandering Wolf' because he began his travels as a companion of Dunk and Egg after they left Winterfell...? That would be very interesting indeed...

IMHO, this is highly unlikely. Rodrik was the 7th child of Beron - I'd be very surprised indeed if he'd been anything more than an infant when Egg and Dunk visited WF. From what we have heard about the "She-wolves", Beron was supposed to be just 30 during the story (which is subject to change, of course). And he was a younger son, so unlikely to have been married super-early. His eldest son and child Donnor wasn't even of age.

Also, adding yet another high noble in disguise to the already unlikely dynamic duo of Dunk and Egg would be ridiculous, IMHO. I mean, it doesn't actually make a lot of sense that D&E would be able to continue their incognito wanderings after "The Mystery Knight", where Egg's position as Dunk's squire became reasonably widely known. Adding a Stark into the mix would make it even more laughable. And there isn't a single hint anywhere of Egg being particularly friendly with any Starks.

I actually like that Starks aren't always bosom friends of "good" protagonists and that Egg had instead been close to Tywin's grandparents, uncle, and even Tywin himself ;).

[Lord Varys]

Maia,

you have a point there with Aemon being judged as 'unpromising' which is why Daeron II supposedly decided to make Aemon a maester, but Aerys I may be an entirely different animal. We don't even know what sort of official education he had. We know he was trained to rule, but he was apparently not forced into a role of 'submissive servitude' (i.e. a maester), which would mean that he was treated as a royal prince throughout his whole life.

That said, the main point with the 'Maegor as heir' thing is that this would completely ruin the whole Great Council purpose to prevent a second Dance of the Dragons. And Bloodraven most likely would never have allowed the Lords to choose a king but attach certain conditions to the choosing. As Hand, acting in the dead king's stead, Bloodraven may have even had the power to dismiss the ruling of the council (just as Jaehaerys I could apparently have not named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone), so this idea would be very theoretical in any case.

But let's assume for a moment Aemon had been chosen to be king by the council. Would he have gone along with that weird idea? I don't think so - he would have named Egg his heir until such a time as a son was born to him. But even if we go with 'the council forced him to name Maegor his heir' what status would have Maegor had then in your scenario? Would have the council named him Prince of Dragonstone (i.e. Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne in the most ultimate sense) or merely Heir Presumptive? If the former is assumed, would have King Aemon then even have a right to take a wife, father a son, and name that son his successor?

And another thing would be that Aerion's supporters, (presumably) Daenora, and eventually most likely Prince Maegor himself would have a huge problem with the fact that the 'true king' was humbled to be nothing but the heir of a 'false king'. With Prince Aegon still there, and King Aemon having the chance of having a long natural lifespan, this would have been a recipe for disaster, especially we go with 'King Aemon was not allowed to marry, but his nephews were'.

On the Starks:

We don't know how and when Rodwell died, or do we? Considering that Brandon had only two sons, and Rodwell had apparently not the chance to father children of his own, I'd not be surprise if Beron married rather early - perhaps after/during a time of fostering at Runestone?

Thus I think Donnor could be 14-15 by the time the story is set in, if we take the whole '30-year-thing' as a fixed fact (which it is not).

I still see Sansa and Serena around at that time, by the way, as well as Myriame Manderly, possibly Alys Karstark (she may have been already death, though, as I think Lorra's mother-in-law would not necessarily be against Lorra), Arsa Stark, Robyn Ryswell, and Lyanna Stark. Perhaps a younger daughter of Black Aly (Mariah), and Jeyne Manderly was still alive. Aregelle and Arrana most likely did not live at Winterfell at that point.

And I still could see Serena Stark pushing the claims of her sons by Edric Stark.

Back to the ages:

If Donnor was 14-15 at that time, Rodrik, the 7th child, could be around 7-8 if we go with one pregnancy per year. And my scenario was not exactly 'Rodrik and D & E became best buddies', but rather that they took him on as another squire/companion for they planned trip to the Wall, and dropped him off on when they passed Winterfell on their way back, or something like that. I did think of Rodrik becoming Dunk's second sidekick... Rather Rodrik developing his desire to see the world (after all, he also made his way to Essos) from Dunk and Egg's tales of, say, Dorne, the Reach, King's Landing, and the Riverlands.

For me it seems that Egg was the Targaryen with the closest connection to the Starks since Aegon III. He helped the Northerners along during the winter to a degree some Southerners considered problematic, and his wife may have been the sister-in-law of Lord Willam.

As to Donnor's nature:

I think if the heir of Winterfell had been in firm control of his faculties, there would have been no room for a quarrel among the women, as the real control would have gone directly to the heir, at least openly. And that would have greatly crippled the capacity of the women to seize actual control. It seems to me that the fight will be about the regency/real control of Winterfell during Beron's illness and after his eventual death.

However, if we go we Rodrik being an infant (or Lorra still being pregnant with him) during the story, Donnor would possibly be 7-9 or so, that would give the women at least a small window to exercise true power (although I guess Donnor would then effectively size control at the age of 12-14 if the main series is any indication.

[Lion of the West]

LionoftheWest,

Aegon V did not take back any of the reforms he had already implemented, but he could not enact all the reforms he wanted to. Jaehaerys II began taking back his father's reforms, and Aerys/Tywin only continued that tendency.

I meant that most of the reforms that Aegon V tried to put through he was forced to take back. I didn't say that he took back the ones that he didn't take back.

Otherwise I agree that later kings continued to roll back the changes he attempted to put in place.