Pikachu101 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yup a "Dorne doesn't count reply" Man I'm getting good at predicted the replies from you guys, ha ha ha Dorne doesn't have the same vilification of bastards that the rest of Westeros does Your example was a woman whose children can't inherit which means she's not in Cat's position Ellaria's a bastard and paramor, Cat's a noblewoman; you can't compare the two You haven't given me an example of a NOBLE reacting better than Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcrash Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Freeing Jaime was a monumental mistake, that alone should settle the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Ned knew Cat for barely a week before they got married. Heck they didn't even love each other when he allegedly cheated on her and had Jon. So Ned had a bastard after having a relationship with Catelyn (marriage), now once again what bastards did Oberyn have after Ellaria? Knowing that his son would surely be killed as a result? Maybe if Tyrion were the son in custody, but there's no way he risks Jaime, he still thought Jaime was his heir after all. Tywin is anything but sentimental, simply he isn't going to let a chance to finally end the war victorious with little to no loses pass him by just because of Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Dorne doesn't have the same vilification of bastards that the rest of Westeros does Your example was a woman whose children can't inherit which means she's not in Cat's position Ellaria's a bastard and paramor, Cat's a noblewoman; you can't compare the two You haven't given me an example of a NOBLE reacting better than Cat You didn't ask for all of that, all you asked for was for a person who cared about their spouses bastards. I provided you one. but yea, "na na na, Dorne doesn't count, na na na" I love how these dances always go. so being a a "noble woman" is a get out of jail free card for being a bitch apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Freeing Jaime was a monumental mistake, that alone should settle the matter. How? Tywin was planning Robb's downfall with Robb and the Freys long before Cat released Jaime, Tywin didn't eve know he was released. Thus he was going to go through with the RW with or without Jaime. Jaime < The preservation of House Lannister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 You didn't ask for all of that, all you asked for was for a person who cared about their spouses bastards. I provided you one. No, you haven't as David mentioned Ellaria doesn't have a spouse thus she cannot care for her non-existent spouse's bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 You didn't ask for all of that, all you asked for was for a person who cared about their spouses bastards. I provided you one. but yea, "na na na, Dorne doesn't count, na na na" I love how these dances always go. Ellaria isn't Oberyn's spouse so no you didn't give me an example :dunno: Do you understand the differences of culture and social attitudes between Dorne and the rest of Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcrash Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 How? Tywin was planning Robb's downfall with Robb and the Freys long before Cat released Jaime, Tywin didn't eve know he was released. Thus he was going to go through with the RW with or without Jaime. Jaime < The preservation of House Lannister What do you mean how? How'd it go over with the Karstarks and a large part of Robb's army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Freeing Jaime was a monumental mistake, that alone should settle the matter. It can be considered a mistake, yes. So what? What is your argument? Characters without flaws, who never make mistakes, tend to be shallow and unrealistic. Catelyn releasing Jaime was an act of desperation, it doesn't make her a bad character, it makes her flawed. Is it really this difficult for you to sympathize with a mother, who had just lost two of her children and attempts to save her other children by doing something "stupid"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 What do you mean how? How'd it go over with the Karstarks and a large part of Robb's army? Well, besides the Karstark it appears that at most a few were upset while the most were indifferent with some being sympathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcrash Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 It can be considered a mistake, yes. So what? What is your argument? Characters without flaws, who never make mistakes, tend to be shallow and unrealistic. Catelyn releasing Jaime was an act of desperation, it doesn't make her a bad character, it makes her flawed. Is it really this difficult for you to sympathize with a mother, who had just lost two of her children and attempts to save her other children by doing something "stupid"? My argument is that it was one of many. The ironic thing about her is that she loved her family so much and yet at the same time was so instrumental in their downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 She did hear Brienne out. Problem is, Brienne is actually guilty. And makes it look way, way worse by her statement. At the risk of derailing the thread, I think that what Brienne had was miles away from hearing: LS: Explain yourself! Brienne: My lady, you don't understand. Actually, I... LS: Slay Jaime Lannister if you're on my side Brienne: no... LS. Then hang. I can't every imagine that this conversation would have gone the same with (live) Cat instead of Stoneheart. I can't ever imagine Cat behaving so. And regardless of Brienne's guilt (which, admittedly, there is enough proof on), right and smart thing to do would actually be to let her speak. If you know that Brienne is a person of unwavering loyalty, if you know she's sworn service to you, if you know she's still a noble person - for 7's sake, Brienne got caught because she risked her life protecting children in the inn; if you know all this you can easily conclude that something must be amiss. But LS doesn't even Brienne speak anything, instead hanging her and her two innocent companions (which, again, I can't imagine Cat doing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 but yea, "na na na, Dorne doesn't count, na na na" I love how these dances always go. so being a a "noble woman" is a get out of jail free card for being a bitch apparently. Well, but Dorne really does not count in this discussion. They have a unique view regarding bastards, their mindset is completely different than any region in Westeros. It's like saying that everybody in Westeros is "better" than any resident of Meereen, because they don't have slaves in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 What do you mean how? How'd it go over with the Karstarks and a large part of Robb's army? The Karstarks would have still been Robb's men if he just sent Rickard to the Wall Also whose this large part of Robb's army? The Mormonts were actually sympathetic to Cat and no other bannerman showed any actual anger, it was mostly annoyance or indifference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 At the risk of derailing the thread, I think that what Brienne had was miles away from hearing: LS: Explain yourself! Brienne: My lady, you don't understand. Actually, I... LS: Slay Jaime Lannister if you're on my side Brienne: no... LS. Then hang. I can't every imagine that this conversation would have gone the same with (live) Cat instead of Stoneheart. I can't ever imagine Cat behaving so. And regardless of Brienne's guilt (which, admittedly, there is enough proof on), right and smart thing to do would actually be to let her speak. If you know that Brienne is a person of unwavering loyalty, if you know she's sworn service to you, if you know she's still a noble person - for 7's sake, Brienne got caught because she risked her life protecting children in the inn; if you know all this you can easily conclude that something must be amiss. But LS doesn't even Brienne speak anything, instead hanging her and her two innocent companions (which, again, I can't imagine Cat doing). Well, Brienne has proven herself a dishonorable traitor. Furthermore, her companions are not innocent. Ser Hyle Hunt is an enemy combatant in a society where killing enemy combatants is par for the course and participated in war crimes against the Riverlanders and especially the BWB, Pod is an enemy combatant as well and personally assisted Tyrion in some of his crimes. What differentiates Cat from Lady Stoneheart is mercy. Mother Merciless fits her now. Because compassion is still there (orphanages), justice is still there (actual trials, and fairer ones than any since Ned Stark died). But there is no mercy for the guilty anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 justice is still there (actual trials, and fairer ones than any since Ned Stark died). It is interesting how around the same time Jaime is going around praising himself as Goldenhand the Just yet when we hear about him coming upon "bandits" he hangs them all without any mention of a trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcrash Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The Karstarks would have still been Robb's men if he just sent Rickard to the Wall Also whose this large part of Robb's army? The Mormonts were actually sympathetic to Cat and no other bannerman showed any actual anger, it was mostly annoyance or indifference It's fun that you can justify anything she did based on your own biases. She gave a few bits of ignored advice that should have been followed, beyond that she screwed the pooch. Justifying her mistakes is just making excuses for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Well, Brienne has proven herself a dishonorable traitor. Furthermore, her companions are not innocent. Ser Hyle Hunt is an enemy combatant in a society where killing enemy combatants is par for the course and participated in war crimes against the Riverlanders and especially the BWB, Pod is an enemy combatant as well and personally assisted Tyrion in some of his crimes. What differentiates Cat from Lady Stoneheart is mercy. Mother Merciless fits her now. Because compassion is still there (orphanages), justice is still there (actual trials, and fairer ones than any since Ned Stark died). But there is no mercy for the guilty anymore. I agree with all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The ironic thing about her is that she loved her family so much and yet at the same time was so instrumental in their downfall. How? Things that caused House Stark's downfall: Joffrey arresting and then executing Ned Robb sending Theon to Pyke Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling Robb not telling Edmure his plan Beheading Karstark Yeah I'm not seeing Cat's part to play in these issues :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcrash Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 How? Things that caused House Stark's downfall: Joffrey arresting Ned Robb sending Theon to Pyke Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling Robb not telling Edmure his plan Beheading Karstark Yeah I'm not seeing Cat's part to play in these issues :dunno: You're leaving out: Abducting Tyrion Freeing Jaime (which led to Karstark beheading) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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