The Fresh PtwP Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Two words "slave army" :agree: I would also add "one-dimensional" to slave army but that's damn near a sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 If "Aegon" is a Blackfyre which I believe he is than Illyrio has Golden Company, probably the best army in ASOIAF universe for free. He had some trouble to get this one army across the Narrow Sea, why bother with another one which probably won't be worth the money? Not to mention that Illyrio might not be rich enough to afford more than say 2000 Unsullied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle Pup From Astapor Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 We know that he knows about the Unsullied since he had some of them guarding his house. He had a lot of money and had three dragon eggs to sell as well. If I were him I would have given Viserys and Dany to Robert, collected the ransom (I'm guessing would be pretty big for the last two living Targaryens), and then used all that money to buy the 8000 Unsullied (don't remember the number of unsullied dany gets in the books so I'm just going to go with the number the show says she has, hopefully its the same). In doing so, he can almost double the army of Aegon,who would now have 18,000 great fighters since he already had 10,000 golden company sellswords. Was Robert offering money for Viserys and Dany? Was this before or after the baby? My impression was that Robert didn't really try to get them (until Dany got pregnant), Jon Arryn talked him out of it. Anyway, I think the main problem with unsullied is that it would be terrible PR for Aegon. He would be coming with a slave army. He's likely going to have big support from the Faith (High Sparrow) now, that wouldn't happen if he brings unsullied. It also would give pause to some of the bannermen. Most of these people care a lot about moral issues. And an army of eunuch slaves would be strictly immoral, in their eyes. Aegon isn't winning this fight alone, he might bring 50k men from Essos, but he would still need support from bannermen. Reputation and bannermen are much more important to him than unsullied. I suppose you could free those unsullied and hope they still follow you (like Dany did), but how would Illyrio know if that would work or not. Maybe unsullied wouldn't even understand what freedom means and go back to their original owners Great Masters. It also pulls out Illyrio out of shadows. Right now Illyrio is still kind of hidden. If Aegon loses, Illyrio should be ok. But you can't buy a massive army of unsullied and send it to Westeros and hope that no one will know. Then there's a matter of surprise. Aegon isn't taking these castles right now because his army is better, it was all about surprise. Westerosi could've been paying more attention if an army of unsullied suddenly showed up in the free cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 We know that he knows about the Unsullied since he had some of them guarding his house. He had a lot of money and had three dragon eggs to sell as well. If I were him I would have given Viserys and Dany to Robert, collected the ransom (I'm guessing would be pretty big for the last two living Targaryens), and then used all that money to buy the 8000 Unsullied (don't remember the number of unsullied dany gets in the books so I'm just going to go with the number the show says she has, hopefully its the same). In doing so, he can almost double the army of Aegon,who would now have 18,000 great fighters since he already had 10,000 golden company sellswords. I believe he didn't do it because he didn't yet have allies in Volantis. Illyrio has essentially has two options for armies: the Dothraki and the Unsullied. EIther way, he has to load them up in Slaver's Bay and pass through Volantis. But the Elephant faction in Volatantis is pro-business. They wouldn't necessarily want war. So, I believe he was initially trying to please the Red God-loving Tiger faction. In the end, Dany ends up becoming anti-slavery and so the Elephant faction ends up supporting Illyrio. But, at this point there are no good Unsullied slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Because he doesn't have that much money possibly? Because Dany already got them? Because 9000 men, even unsullied, are not enough to conquer Westeros? Because he thought slaves soldiers would not be well recieved in the seven kingdoms and never thought to free them and still expect them to obey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Dorne managed to muster up 15,000 for Rhaegar. Considering how they lost at the Trident and that they're rebelling against the crown, 10,000 seems more realistic. So, that's 10,000 sellswords, possibly 10,000 Dornish spears, and 8,000 Unsullied. 28,000 is still a considerable force. Let's not forget that he may have supporters in Westeros, so it's not unreasonable to think he'll have 30,000+. Problem is that Dorne's as useless as an ally as the North. The best way to take King's Landing is by sea. Dorne to King's Landing is a long march. Don't get me wrong, the best alliance he can hope for right now is with Dorne. Dorne gave Rhaegar 10K. Aegon wouldn't have enough ships to sail to KL and conquer it. Stannis had 200 ships and could only move 5K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Dorne gave Rhaegar 10K. Aegon wouldn't have enough ships to sail to KL and conquer it. Stannis had 200 ships and could only move 5K. No really, we have no idea how many men Stannis could have carried on his ships, only that it is a minimum of 5K, 30 ships carried ~1,500 all the way to the Wall, assuming the same number of men could fit on each ship (unrealistic but it will have to do), Stannis could have transported at least 10,000 men using his fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto At Lepanto the allied fleet with some 70k of men had 200 galleys. Admittedly the ships of the 1500s could be more advanced than the ships of the medieval Westeros but still, I'd say 200 galley could transport 50, 000 men at a conservative estimate. Even being super conservative and saying 25000 men is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto At Lepanto the allied fleet with some 70k of men had 200 galleys. Admittedly the ships of the 1500s could be more advanced than the ships of the medieval Westeros but still, I'd say 200 galley could transport 50, 000 men at a conservative estimate. Even being super conservative and saying 25000 men is enough. There's a big difference between a wargalley and a transport. A really big one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Transports carry more stuff since they don't need to be fast and manuverable. Presumably the galleys at Lepanto were war galleys, thus they make a good low base estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Sure, but they don't need to transport any horses either. Horses require a lot of space. And distance plays a role as well, you can pack the "cargo" tighter on a shorter journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Indeed, however, my original point stands. More accurately, I doubt it is something GRRM considers outside of "Is this plausible, yes it is". Logistics in ASOIAF are vague and that's not something I object to. The messanger birds are unrealistic but help move the story along. Indeed, the overly realistic travel times are one of the major reasons I am still bitching about ADWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Indeed, however, my original point stands. More accurately, I doubt it is something GRRM considers outside of "Is this plausible, yes it is". Logistics in ASOIAF are vague and that's not something I object to. The messanger birds are unrealistic but help move the story along. Indeed, the overly realistic travel times are one of the major reasons I am still bitching about ADWD. What's unrealistic about messenger birds? They've been in use for thousands of years, well before the equivalent period of Westeros in Europe's history. When you factor in the consistent location of major castles, cities, and others over essentially thousands of years -- even KL has been around for 300 -- the efficacy of the birds makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 What's unrealistic about messenger birds? Everything, except them being birds that carry messages. Prrior to telegraphs important messages with regards to diplomacy, politics and war were sent by horses or ships. Messenger birds played a limited, minor role and nothing even slightly comparable to Westeros's Interraven Super Highway existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Everything, except them being birds that carry messages. Prrior to telegraphs important messages with regards to diplomacy, politics and war were sent by horses or ships. Messenger birds played a limited, minor role and nothing even slightly comparable to Westeros's Interraven Super Highway existed. So Genghis Khan raised all those pigeon outposts for no reason? Charlemagne wasn't averse to using pigeons either. Caesar and Hannibal used them. The breadth of it, well yeah I get that objection. In my view that's completely allayed by length of time Westeros has more or less been in stasis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Everything, except them being birds that carry messages. Prrior to telegraphs important messages with regards to diplomacy, politics and war were sent by horses or ships. Messenger birds played a limited, minor role and nothing even slightly comparable to Westeros's Interraven Super Highway existed. All the 200 or whatever rookeries in Westeros? Please remember that only the most powerful Lords and a couple castles financed by the Lords Paramount have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkilak Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 In short, because Unsullied are about 2,000 years out of step with the technology and tactics of Westeros. They're good against the Dothraki, but not much else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Like Rosby and Stokeworth who were noted as getting Ravens from Stannis and that if shit tiers like them got messages they must have been sent to everyone and oh my God, this forum. So Genghis Khan raised all those pigeon outposts for no reason? Charlemagne wasn't averse to using pigeons either. Caesar and Hannibal used them. The breadth of it, well yeah I get that objection. In my view that's completely allayed by length of time Westeros has more or less been in stasis. Because there were great geographical upheavals in Europe during the 100 years before the telegraph? The fact you start your examples of pigeon people with the Mongols who were famous for their continent crossing horse relays means I'm not even going to smack the rest of your examples down. Also to reiterate, I'm not saying no one used them, just that 1) They were extremely minor compared to horse messenger and courier boat and 2) The way they work in ASOIAF isn't realistic but a matter of literary convenience and I prefer it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 In short, because Unsullied are about 2,000 years out of step with the technology and tactics of Westeros. They're good against the Dothraki, but not much else. wat Fuck me, outside of dragons and magic shit all has changed in that time. Disciplined infantry like the Unsullied are better military tech the knights. When Western Europe went from Roman legions to knights they stepped backwards for a thousand years. (Admittedly logistics is even more important but whatever, knights are just as hard to make as true unsullied) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Like Rosby and Stokeworth who were noted as getting Ravens from Stannis and that if shit tiers like them got messages they must have been sent to everyone and oh my God, this forum. Because there were great geographical upheavals in Europe during the 100 years before the telegraph? The fact you start your examples of pigeon people with the Mongols who were famous for their continent crossing horse relays means I'm not even going to smack the rest of your examples down. Also to reiterate, I'm not saying no one used them, just that 1) They were extremely minor compared to horse messenger and courier boat and 2) The way they work in ASOIAF isn't realistic but a matter of literary convenience and I prefer it that way. You don't have to. Just because he built pigeon outposts all through his empire doesn't mean horses and ships were extensively used. There's a extensive history of them being used by crusaders, Charlemagne, Hannibal, Julius Caesar, and others. Just because you didn't know or don't care to do any research isn't really my issue. Here start with page 240: http://tinyurl.com/lgyzb8b Hannibal and Caesar were getting pigeons in the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.