East vs West: why is Essos is more advanced than Westeros?

[Veltigar]

What does your nationality have to do with anything?

They are amongst other things talking about his countries history. He probably finds some of the views expressed in this thread extremely laughable.

[DanielWilson]

I know how the Spanish feel about it. They get quite upset at the mention of the obviously Black Moors.

But Isabella who burned so many people who didn't convert back to Christianity is buried in a Muslim temple, in a tomb that says 'There is no God but Allah', and covered by script from the Quran. If you're in Spain, go down there and look. Check the moors heads in Spain as well.

@Khaleesi is dead wrong

You could just ask me where I'm from. Simple. My father is Eritrean (a branch off from Ethiopian Empire you mentioned), light skinned curly hair, and though there is some semetic mixture of his family from a time in Yemen, He is of an indeginous tribe going back to the time of Egypt. My mother is what you would call 'Bantu' type African. And no, I am not American.

Obviously I meant the artifacts presented on the site are directly from the time of the Moors, but you want to avoid explaining it, compared to what you, and some so called Spanish people are saying.

You are avoiding the drastic changes that occurred in the area over the last 500 years. Including mass displacement of the people who lived there.

How can Moor be synonymous with Black, or Negro in Spain, Italy, Sicily, and every other European country, if they are Arabs?

Simple question.

edit:http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/a/africans-in-medieval-and-renaissance-art-moors-head/

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

How can Moor be synonymous with Black, or Negro in Spain, Italy, Sicily, and every other European country, if they are Arabs?

Simple question.

How can "Asian" in America be synonymous with Chinese, Japanese and Korean people, when the entire Middle East, India, Iran etc is in Asia too, where the people definitely aren't like them?

How can "Indian" in America (and much of the rest of the world) be synonymous with Native American, when Native Americans aren't from India and have nothing to do with India?

Moor definitely isn't synonymous with black in every European country by the way.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

As far as i know there where non-black people living in North Africa before the arabs.

[DanielWilson]

'As far as you know' is not good enough to be taken as fact.

How can "Asian" in America be synonymous with Chinese, Japanese and Korean people, when the entire Middle East, India, Iran etc is in Asia too, where the people definitely aren't like them?

How can "Indian" in America (and much of the rest of the world) be synonymous with Native American, when Native Americans aren't from India and have nothing to do with India?



Moor definitely isn't synonymous with black in every European country by the way.

None of those questions answer my question.
I don't think your computer is working, I'm going to copy the short article that just brushes on the topic. (I can't copy the pictures, but just click the link, anyone if you can)

http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/a/africans-in-medieval-and-renaissance-art-moors-head/

Article:

Quote:
The objects featured here all include the head of a moor, or black African, in profile. The use of the 'moor's head' as a heraldic device dates from the 13th century. The emblem has connections to the Crusades, reflecting associating individual families with victories over the moors. Heraldic devices and emblems were included on objects like those featured here to indicate ownership.

The device may also have connections with the Hohenstaufan dynasty, which ruled the Holy Roman Empire from 1138 to 1254. The Emperor Henry VI (1165–97) kept black African retainers. His son Frederick II (1194–1250), who was also king of Sicily, took a keen interest in the black Muslim population that had remained in Sicily after the island's return to Christian rule in 1061. He established an enclave for these Muslims near his palace in Lucera in southern Italy, and recruited his musicians and elite bodyguard from the community.

Frederick's use of black Africans can be explained by his desire to present himself as a 'world ruler'. Their presence symbolised the extent of his power. Other families may have adopted the moor's head on their arms to associate themselves with the Hohenstaufan dynasty.

By 1400 a moor, as a crowned head in profile, or occasionally as a full figure, was relatively common in German heraldry. In time, its usage spread to almost every European country.



Bookbinding (detail), about 1520. Museum no. AL.287-1883
Bookbinding (detail), about 1520. Museum no. AL.287-1883

By the 16th century, when the stained glass medallion above was made, the moor's head had become a conventional motif. The medallion features the arms of the Tucher, a large prosperous German family from Nuremberg. They had acquired wealth and power through trade with Italy in the early 14th century, later expanding their operations to France and the Low Countries.

The moor's head device was also used in Italian heraldry, especially by families in the north and centre of the peninsula. The earliest known example appears in the 11th century. Its use by families such as the Saraceni of Siena, the Morandi of Genoa, the Morese of Bologna, the Negri of Vicenza and the Pagani of Saluzzo suggests that the device was intended as a pun on surnames similar to the Italian words for moor, negro and saracen. However, the Pucci family also used it. The moor in Italian art was usually depicted wearing a white band tied above the eyes, instead of the German imperial crown, to represent victory over the moors during the Crusades. These families may have originally acquired their surnames from crusader ancestors.

The binding shown to the right, on a book of Seneca's Tragedies , was made for a member of the Pucci family of Florence. Their adoption of the moor's head was probably influenced by their claim to be descended from Jacopo Saracino, a Florentine nobleman.
Originally, the white band worn by the Pucci moor was decorated with three hammers, perhaps symbolising an ancestor's membership of the carpenter's guild.
The hammers were later reduced to the form of three letter 'Ts' and the Latin motto Tempore tempora tempera, meaning 'Time is a great healer', was added. An older Pucci motto, Candida praecordia ('White at heart'), probably reflects the meaning of the Italian proverbs Viso nero, cuore candido ('Black face, white heart') and Il bruno il bel non toglie ('Dark skin does not beauty remove'). Variations of these proverbs appear in the mottoes of other Italian families with moor's heads in their arms. They reflect an ancient belief, later adopted and expanded by Christian theologians, that the blackness of Africans was only skin-deep and could conceal the whitest of souls.


Plate (detail), about 1540-44. Museum no. 1693-1855
Plate (detail), about 1540-44. Museum no. 1693-1855

Tin-glazed earthenware plate, Siena or Deruta, Italy, about 1500. Museum no. C. 2059-1910 (Plate)
Tin-glazed earthenware plate, Siena or Deruta, Italy, about 1500. Museum no. C. 2059-1910 (Plate)


In the upper left section of the plate above, Cardinal Antonio Pucci's (1483–1544) shield is displayed. Antonio was created Cardinal in 1531 and adopted by Pope Clement VII (Giulio de' Medici) at the urging of his uncle, Cardinal Lorenzo Pucci. This explains why the shield contains the Medici balls on the left and the Moor's head device of the Pucci family on the right, surmounted by the cardinal's hat.

The plate to the right has a shield with a Moor's head as its centrepiece. Set against a yellow background, the dark colour of his skin contrasts with the white headband and kerchief he wears around his neck. As any number of families used the device, perhaps as a pun on their surnames, it is unclear who may have commissioned the plate.

The moor's head motif is still in use today. The coat of arms of the current pope, Benedict XVI, features the profile of a black man wearing a crown and gold earring.
Unquote.

[Justin Amey]

Here is the 5 simple reasons why Essos in more Advance the Westeros: Wars, Massive Wars, Lack of Wars, Slaves, And Understanding

I'll Explain each one separately in a second i have to go somewhere.

[The Holy Goat]

They are amongst other things talking about his countries history. He probably finds some of the views expressed in this thread extremely laughable.

Alright. He/She had me confused there for a moment.

As far as i know there where non-black people living in North Africa before the arabs.

Yes. The ancient Egyptians, the people of Carthage, all the romans, etc. Northern Africa has been mainly caucasian/cacausoid for quite a while.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

None of those questions answer my question.

I don't think your computer is working, I'm going to copy the short article that just brushes on the topic. (I can't copy the pictures, but just click the link, anyone if you can)

http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/a/africans-in-medieval-and-renaissance-art-moors-head/

Yeah they do. They show that what historical people chose to call various far away ethnic groups doesn't need to mean anything. Your article is a good example of that.

In 500 years I bet some guy is going to link a clip from an old Wild West movie and then use the fact that the cowboys there call the people they are fighting against "Indians" to claim that 19th century India was populated by people with tomahawks and totem poles, who were then driven extinct by Hindus and Muslims migrating there in 2030. Or something like that.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

why is the identity of african only available to Blacks? Africa is a pretty big continent where currently people of many skin tones are born. To exclude all of them and telling them that they arent "real" Africans is in my opinion absurd (and that is if we suppose your claim that only black people ever lived in africa before the arabs is true, which i strongly doubt). Just because my great grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand father didnt come from Europe does not mean i cant identify as a European.

[DanielWilson]

Yeah they do. They show that what historical people chose to call various far away ethnic groups doesn't need to mean anything. Your article is a good example of that.

In 500 years I bet some guy is going to link a clip from an old Wild West movie and then use the fact that the cowboys there call the people they are fighting against "Indians" to claim that 19th century India was populated by people with tomahawks and totem poles, who were then driven extinct by Hindus and Muslims migrating there in 2030. Or something like that.

I don't understand what you are saying. You are telling me about the modern lies I'm addressing. You are saying some people make up stuff. (I guess your suggesting I'm doing that)

And I guess you are saying, the Kings and Emperors that interacted directly with the Moors were mistaken?

And in 500 years from now people like me are going to tell them how ridiculous they sound.

But please, try to answer the question. The etymology of the very word Moor is in Latin for black.

Alright. He/She had me confused there for a moment.

Yes. The ancient Egyptians, the people of Carthage, all the romans, etc. Northern Africa has been mainly caucasian/cacausoid for quite a while.

So now Moors/Berbers were white, lol. Not even Arab. Don't speak of things you don't know.

[DanielWilson]

why is the identity of african only available to Blacks? Africa is a pretty big continent where currently people of many skin tones are born. To exclude all of them and telling them that they arent "real" Africans is in my opinion absurd. Just because my great grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand father didnt come from Europe does not mean i cant identify as a European.

Grow up. If I am African how can I claim King Henry, etc. and indeginious European history as my own.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

Grow up. If I am African how can I claim King Henry, etc. and indeginious European history as my own.

cause maybe u got ancestors in Europ? idk.

My ancestors 1000 years ago are not as defining in my identity as the ones withing the last 200.

[DanielWilson]

cause maybe u got ancestors in Europ? idk.

My ancestors 1000 years ago are not as defining in my identity as the ones withing the last 200.

no I don't.

Most Europeans cannot trace their ancestry 1000years. But that is not other people's view of themselves. Especially Africans.

[Veltigar]

Grow up. If I am African how can I claim King Henry, etc. and indeginious European history as my own.

Because if you grew up there, you grew up in a society shaped by the history that came before.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I don't understand what you are saying. You are telling me about the modern lies I'm addressing. You are saying some people make up stuff. (I guess your suggesting I'm doing that)

And I guess you are saying, the Kings and Emperors that interacted directly with the Moors were mistaken?

And in 500 years from now people like me are going to tell them how ridiculous they sound.

But please, try to answer the question. The etymology of the very word Moor is in Latin for black.

Not at all. Medieval people tended to depict Moors like this after all.

Edit: Okay linking doesn't work. But just google medieval depictions of Moors or something. Or better yet, look at the gallery at the bottom of the page in the English wikipedia article.

As you can see on the last picture, there are some black faces there, though most of them look Caucasian. The most likely origin for that "Moors head" heraldry you link is that Europeans were surprised by how exotic those individuals that were with the Moors looked and thus named the symbol after that. Plus that playing up how "different" your enemies look is a common phenomenon in propaganda, and the Moors and Christian European kingdoms weren't exactly best friends with each other.

As for the etymology of the word meaning dark, well, lets just say that that is a very relative term depending on where in the world you are, and doesn't mean that you are a Sub Saharan African. Middle Easterners and even Southern Europeans are in my country sometimes referred to as "dark" in our language, yet they are not black. People in Greece call people "blonde" that might be called brown haired up here, and so on.

Medieval Europeans wouldn't in any case have used 21st century racial classifications. When they referred to the Moors as "dark" that only meant that the Moors were perceived as darker than they were, which makes sense considering that they would have looked like present day people from that area. That is, a lot like Arabs.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

no I don't.

There coudld be a lot of reasons. Still i ask why has a black born in africa the right to call him african while a non-black born in Africa not the right to do so?

[DanielWilson]

There coudld be a lot of reasons. Still i ask why has a black born in africa the right to call him african while a non-black born in Africa not the right to do so?

Because those are European and some Arabic views, which are, frankly, very destructive.

previous page:

So now I'm some sort of 'racist'? Did you read the comment? You should use google for your maybe.

After all I wrote, that's what you got? That all Africans are Bantu. Where do you see that? I think I know where you are coming from though. I guess Bantu supposed to be an insult, and even the deBoars who mistakenly started calling all Africans 'Bantu' would not and do not refer to themselves as Africans, but Afrikaan's, a new title they made up. But you can't move somewhere and become native there. I'm not sorry to tell you.

There are no other type of African but the so called 'Black' type. If not, show me one passport, or certificate of nationality that shows anyone as being African. You can't, because it is a description of a land mass, and for a specific 'ethnic' group : The Africans aka Black People. Let me break it down simple for you. If an African becomes an English or French citizen are they now a European? No. He is an African wherever he goes. But he can be a Frenchman or Englishman. Can an Arab from Morocco be an African American? No. He is semitic wherever. If a European becomes a Japanese citizen, is he now an Oriental? No, he is a European everywhere he goes. It is a reference to his so called 'race'.

I know you already know that, but it's propaganda like Danaerys and Essos that enforces your view. Do you know how big Africa is? You can drop Europe in the Sahara and most Africans wouldn't know they are there. There are far ranging peoples that can show their history there going back thousands and thousands and thousands of years. There is NO credible source that will tell you Arabs are native to North Africa. If you had googled it, it can show you exactly when Arabs entered the area. Its like saying, since when are French people white, because you see their football team is mostly black. That's crazy.

And remember that it was the 'eugenics' campaigns that even came up with this race thing, and tried to separate slightly lighter from jet black, to divide the people among the lines of physical traits, and that's only in the late 19th century. And the remnant of that campaign most likely informs your world view. But bear in mind, that these are the same people who said 'Black' (or 'Bantu' in your words) people are not fully human. This is all just propaganda to justify the 'Ramsay Bolton' behavior, and Danaerys' behaviour. To present other people as non-human and inferior to justify the atrocities against them, as I said in my first comment. And see, even Arabs(I guess 90% human) and them are going at it now.

The fact of the matter is, no European, not even Herodotus himself, who only repeated stories, claims to have been into Africa before the Greko Romans, and even then that was just on the extreme northern edges. You see the map of Westeros, as said in the video that's how they saw the world. They didn't even know Africa existed, and this is the 15th century Europe. So they are not a good source for African History. Semetic people have long had a relationship with Africans, as represented by the 'Tuareg', Sudanese and Ethiopians. However, it is well documented when the Arab invasions started, and there is no other record of mass displacement of North Africans before those invasions. Yes, they pushed many Africans south and into Europe, but they are still there. So because you watch a few movies, and some FOX reports you think you can tell me about my definition and culture, where I directly come from? No, all due respect sir, but that cannot work. And no educated, or rational Arab I’ve met claims to be native to North Africa or African.

I don't want to watch or read some fantasy, honestly, of Africans taking over Europe, or Chinese taking over India, or anything like that. At least not in any disrespectful way. And when I watch shows from other countries I don't see it. When I watch shows about Europeans by Europeans, I don't see it. And I can just sit back and enjoy the stories for what it is, for the characters and conflicts, so on.

Yeah, so GRRM should have stayed in Westeros, IMHO. How can a pyramid be hollow and used as a meeting hall, just dumb stuff. All they are going to do is get their movies and books banned in the countries they are supposed to represent, because it's disrespectful. I give him credit though, because he doesn't shy away as much from how real things were when doing a time piece. He writes of the stink and the social conditions, as well as the upsides, that are left out in many Medieval settings. If you know about horses, they walk and shit everywhere, so all those streets are full of horse poop. He puts all that stuff in, and it doesn't take away, but adds more to the story. That's genius. But I don't like the Essos presentation at all, mostly. That's my opinion. And Africans are so called 'black', that's a fact.

Hey, Gil. I elaborated above.(and beyond)

[DanielWilson]

Not at all. Medieval people tended to depict Moors like this after all.

Edit: Okay linking doesn't work. But just google medieval depictions of Moors or something. Or better yet, look at the gallery at the bottom of the page in the English wikipedia article.

As you can see on the last picture, there are some black faces there, though most of them look Caucasian. The most likely origin for that "Moors head" heraldry you link is that Europeans were surprised by how exotic those individuals that were with the Moors looked and thus named the symbol after that. Plus that playing up how "different" your enemies look is a common phenomenon in propaganda, and the Moors and Christian European kingdoms weren't exactly best friends with each other.

As for the etymology of the word meaning dark, well, lets just say that that is a very relative term depending on where in the world you are, and doesn't mean that you are a Sub Saharan African. Middle Easterners and even Southern Europeans are in my country sometimes referred to as "dark" in our language, yet they are not black. People in Greece call people "blonde" that might be called brown haired up here, and so on.

Medieval Europeans wouldn't in any case have used 21st century racial classifications. When they referred to the Moors as "dark" that only meant that the Moors were perceived as darker than they were, which makes sense considering that they would have looked like present day people from that area. That is, a lot like Arabs.

You are giving me sweet words of foolishness. Disrespecting your own ancestors to prove some modern racial view, that they obviously didn't have. Then you keep saying Sub Sahara like that means anything to Africans.

Quote:

The moor's head motif is still in use today. The coat of arms of the current pope, Benedict XVI, features the profile of a black man wearing a crown and gold earring.

unquote

See how moor and black man are used interchangeably there? The pope lady.

Click on the link again, and summon your own intelligence beyond propaganda. These people LIVED with the moors, see if there is any possibility of them being Arabs. Even remotely, like the Egyptian, Sudanese and Ethiopian indeginous Africans.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/a/africans-in-medieval-and-renaissance-art-moors-head/

Look at the pictures and see if there is any ambiguity as to whether they were Semetic, or "Caucasoid", or are the Moors clearly African, without question. It is a fact, that a few Arabs were among them, but are not representative of a Moor. They people who knew them, made a picture of them, and were quite proud of them. And many educated Europeans still are. Like the pope.

[Ingelheim]

Alright. He/She had me confused there for a moment.

Yes. The ancient Egyptians, the people of Carthage, all the romans, etc. Northern Africa has been mainly caucasian/cacausoid for quite a while.

Yep, what Veltigar said. Some things said about my country (a country that has done terrible things throughout its history) are plain lies.

I know how the Spanish feel about it. They get quite upset at the mention of the obviously Black Moors.

But Isabella who burned so many people who didn't convert back to Christianity is buried in a Muslim temple, in a tomb that says 'There is no God but Allah', and covered by script from the Quran. If you're in Spain, go down there and look. Check the moors heads in Spain as well.

All the Caliphs of the Banu Marwan (God have mercy on their souls!), and especially the sons of al-Nasir, were without variation or exception disposed by nature to prefer blondes. I have myself seen them, and known others who had seen their forebears, from the days of al-Nasir's reign down to the present day; every one of them has been fair-haired, taking after their mothers, so that this has become a hereditary trait with them; all but Sulaiman al-Zafir (God have mercy on him!), whom I remember to have had black ringlets and a black beard. As for al-Nasir and al-Hakam al-Mustansir (may God be pleased with them!), I have been informed by my late father, the vizier, as well as by others, that both of them were blond and blue-eyed. The same is true of Hisham al-Mu'aiyad, Muhammad al-Mahdi, and `Abd al-Rahman al-Murtada (may God be merciful to them all!); I saw them myself many times, and had the honour of being received by them, and I remarked that they all had fair hair and blue eyes

Written by Ibn Hazm, "Iberian Black Moor"

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

But you are yourself stating that there is no other type of african than black? I then ask why? why cant a non-black african not be african? Or have i gravely misunderstood?