East vs West: why is Essos is more advanced than Westeros?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They have more money, more artifacts, more soldiers, more stability, more ships, more trade, more culture (plays) etc

Less money (Casterly Rock anyone?), in the top spots as well as all around. What artifacts? Less soldiers (and those are mostly imported from Westeros anyway), the combined forces of Lys, Myr and Tyrosh are less than those of Dorne as the weakest of the Seven Kingdoms. Less stability (Disputed Lands Yi-Tish civil war, Dothraki). More ships, maybe. More trade, maybe, if you count only sea trade. More culture? Yes, in Braavos which you called a bit of transplanted Westeros.

[Maid So Fair]

^MaidsoFair. I guess they do

It was just an example, but this is from the link you sent, for awareness sake:

I won't even go into Herodotus. He writes of the Greek's African influences as well.

The guys in the video are saying Westeros is representative of 15th century Europe. If we're going back to first century AD, after the punic wars, a lot of the major cities of North Africa were Roman colonies. Africans rose through the ranks all the way to Emperor, and even a couple 'Black' popes. So that's even further from Westeros.

Medieval times is more like it, after original info was destroyed in inquisitions and whatnot, and translated into 'OldTown' type institutions, Westeros would more represent how much the general population at that time knew of the outside world, as said in the video. Makes sense to me.

Edit: I would add that obviously Westeros is not a one to one comparison with real history and there is no obligation for it to be. Still people should know that advancement in science and medical studies in Europe were drastically improved by interaction with 'outside culture'. Westeros is not real history is what I'm saying, and if people think it represents that, it becomes propaganda. So I'm glad for videos like this that compare and contrast the two.

It's more the fact that they lived there at any point and the climate and conditions therefore suitable for them - they were just probably hunted to extinction as a result of the increase in human population etc. It's therefore not exactly a stretch that lions could still roam the Westerlands, or at least the more isolated parts of the Westerlands, if for whatever reason they haven't been eradicated yet (such as being the Lannisters' sigil). Direwolf is a historical animal as well, yet no one seems to find it strange there would be some in the North.

[GoT_Academy]

Less money (Casterly Rock anyone?), in the top spots as well as all around. What artifacts? Less soldiers (and those are mostly imported from Westeros anyway), the combined forces of Lys, Myr and Tyrosh are less than those of Dorne as the weakest of the Seven Kingdoms. Less stability (Disputed Lands Yi-Tish civil war, Dothraki). More ships, maybe. More trade, maybe, if you count only sea trade. More culture? Yes, in Braavos which you called a bit of transplanted Westeros.

Casterly Rock is also broke. Cercei doesn't have enough money to build 10 ships. And they are the richest house in the land. We saw the richest people in Essos and how wealthy they are. Westeros doesn't even have a merchant class to speak of. Lys and Myr and Tyriosh just hire the best armies in the world, the Golden Company, the Unsullied. No Westerosi army can top those two, especially the latter. The only bits of culture emanating from Westeros is the faith of the seven, which doesn't affect Essos, and knights. They also have wine. Otherwise, all the best stuff comes from the East, as other have previously stated (glass, iron, spices, etc). Volantis has splendid architecture and Illyrio's house looks like nothing in Westeros. That's the sense I got, even though its counter-intuitive to believe that we're reading a story about the more backwards and boring place, and also we are so used to see ourselves (Westerners) as more advanced.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Don't be confused by the show! Casterly Rock is anything but broke, Kevan would have had no problem to pay all the IT's debts at once. Tyrell, Redwyne, Manderly, they've got tons of money as well.

Lys and Myr and Tyrosh hire the best armies in the world, like the Golden Company (Westeros), not the Unsullied who are not even in the running. Check the parallel thread. And the total number of all Free Companies is about 40,000 or 50,000 men, not all of them in the employ of those three cities.

"All the best stuff comes from the East" only qualifies from a Westerosi perspective, discounting all the stuff Westeros exports to Essos as unimportant because it's readily available. Furthermore, most of the actually advanced stuff (glass technology) originates in the Free Cities, the western Free Cities at that, who'd you claimed to be basically Westerosi outcrops.

The Wall looks like nothing in Essos and so does the Hightower. Or the Eyrie. Or even the Red Keep.

I'm not opposed to Essos being advanced, I criticize details you've got wrong. And most importantly, I criticize your attempt to describe Essos without the Free Cities (Westerosi outcrops, Planetos-Italy) as advanced, but using the Free Cities as proof of Essosi advancement at the same time. You can't have your cake and eat it.

[darkdude103]

This Just came to mind but what if Quarth is based on Baghdad during the abbasid/ummyad empires seing as its a trade hub between the west and east (Yi Ti/asshai) which would make sense as they were more technologically advanced than the west which was in the dark ages aswell as being near a dessert.

The triple walls though remind me of Constantinople and its natural defences

[myufa]

People often confuse that Europe was always the most advanced. That wasn't the case in medieval times. The Muslim and Chinese empires were far ahead of Europe until the early renaissance. And Westeros is based off of medieval Europe.

[Veltigar]

Check the parallel thread. And the total number of all Free Companies is about 40,000 or 50,000 men, not all of them in the employ of those three cities.

Is this number given anywhere?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Is this number given anywhere?

Not as such, but we've got a rough estimate for the number of Free Companies and have enough examples to guess at an average.

The number of Unsullied is better sourced, with about 1,000 produced per year. 8,000 for Dany, the oldest of them being Unsullied for six or seven years. Probably exactly 1,000 given the Good Masters dividing them in such quantities.

Exceptional buyouts excluded.

[Werthead]

There were several civil wars in the past 100 years in Westeros while in Essos there is much less internal strife (pre-Dany)

Lys, Myr, Tyrosh and Volantis have been in near-constant warfare (and completely constant skirmishing) over the Disputed Lands and Stepstones since the Century of Blood, for over 300 years. The Dothraki have been constantly raiding and laying waste to other lands since that time as well, destroying Sarnor, one of the previously great kingdoms of the region.

Outside of the Blackfyre Rebellion (which only lasted for a year), Westeros had no major internal rebellion between the Dance of Dragons and the War of the Usurper. The other conflicts were short or between a united (ish) Seven Kingdoms and an external foe (as Dorne was back then).

Westeros also has the Citadel, a seat of learning apparently unmatched anywhere in the known world. Parts of Essos have greater knowledge in more specialised fields (lenscraft in Myr, for example, or seacraft in Braavos) but no Essosi kingdom or city appears to approach the general level of knowledge provided by the Citadel.

[GoT_Academy]

Not as such, but we've got a rough estimate for the number of Free Companies and have enough examples to guess at an average.

The number of Unsullied is better sourced, with about 1,000 produced per year. 8,000 for Dany, the oldest of them being Unsullied for six or seven years. Probably exactly 1,000 given the Good Masters dividing them in such quantities.

Exceptional buyouts excluded.

Dany is another catalyst for the East's decline. She takes their Unsullied by force and treachery (which we all applaud) and then sacks cities and runs them to the ground. The Masters still muster up huge forces to fight her, coupled with a small piece of Qarth's fleet. It's mostly the Ironborn and schemes of other players who bring the slavers down. As I was reading ADWD I was thinking to myself, oy my God, Dany is doomed and she doesn't even know it. It wasn't even close. And then Tyrion does his thing, the dragons are freed and most of all Victarion comes from the rear. Those are all specific book-related developments. We were talking about the general trends and geo-political situation that was the basis for the story. More riches, more stability, more progress in Essos in comparison to Westeros. It's not that they were the Silicon Valley, it's just that Westeros is a backwards place by all accounts, same as Medieval Europe.

[GoT_Academy]

Lys, Myr, Tyrosh and Volantis have been in near-constant warfare (and completely constant skirmishing) over the Disputed Lands and Stepstones since the Century of Blood, for over 300 years. The Dothraki have been constantly raiding and laying waste to other lands since that time as well, destroying Sarnor, one of the previously great kingdoms of the region.

Outside of the Blackfyre Rebellion (which only lasted for a year), Westeros had no major internal rebellion between the Dance of Dragons and the War of the Usurper. The other conflicts were short or between a united (ish) Seven Kingdoms and an external foe (as Dorne was back then).

Westeros also has the Citadel, a seat of learning apparently unmatched anywhere in the known world. Parts of Essos have greater knowledge in more specialised fields (lenscraft in Myr, for example, or seacraft in Braavos) but no Essosi kingdom or city appears to approach the general level of knowledge provided by the Citadel.

You're absolutely right. It's just the Westeros has more troubles. No one destroyed the entire continent (yet), what happens in Robert's Rebellion and then in ASOIAF. We think it's going to get to Essos, through Dany. They're gonna take it badly. Did you watch the video? I think we break it down in a interesting and simple way.

Gil

[GoT_Academy]

This Just came to mind but what if Quarth is based on Baghdad during the abbasid/ummyad empires seing as its a trade hub between the west and east (Yi Ti/asshai) which would make sense as they were more technologically advanced than the west which was in the dark ages aswell as being near a dessert.

The triple walls though remind me of Constantinople and its natural defences

Great point.

[GoT_Academy]

You're absolutely right. It's just the Westeros has more troubles. No one destroyed the entire continent (yet), what happens in Robert's Rebellion and then in ASOIAF. We think it's going to get to Essos, through Dany. They're gonna take it badly. Did you watch the video? I think we break it down in a interesting and simple way.

Gil

And you bring up an interesting point regarding the Citadel. We have a great video on the maesters coming up with a really really interesting theory, in my opinion. They'll play a key role, is what I think.

[Maester Mando]

Less money (Casterly Rock anyone?), in the top spots as well as all around. What artifacts? Less soldiers (and those are mostly imported from Westeros anyway), the combined forces of Lys, Myr and Tyrosh are less than those of Dorne as the weakest of the Seven Kingdoms. Less stability (Disputed Lands Yi-Tish civil war, Dothraki). More ships, maybe. More trade, maybe, if you count only sea trade. More culture? Yes, in Braavos which you called a bit of transplanted Westeros.

I wouldnt say that westeros has more stability. Imagine what a merchant of the east must think of the seven kingdoms, whonare now de facto no singleunited realm, where nohody exercises power over the whole realm. Even in times of peace the 7k are relatively unstable, what makes sense given the enormous size of the realm and its medieval infrastructure. In terms of culture i have to disagree, and slaving isnt opposed to culture. The muslim world in the middle ages were heavily involved in slave trade and were far more advanced than europe. I recommend to read leo africanus, a young man who travels through europe and the muslim world at the end of the middle ages. There are many similarities between essos desfribed in asoiaf and the near east described in leo africanus, and no one can deny that europe was more backward then.

The one thing is, that we, myself included, have mostly a western/european, european-influenced background, so we see everything through our european eyes. Other cultures have completely different values and their own strengths.

But i guess that is was grrm wants us to do, see everything from westerosi perspective. Who knows? Maybe there is a mega citadel in yin? We know far less about essos, so we cant really compare both continents. Essos may be in decline, but the seven kingdoms are even more. The war of the five kings was so cruel, that it is likely that the realm never again really unites. And we have more than three pretenders to the throne. Plusbironborn savages, and maybe an invasion of others and a new dance of dragons. Wetsros is not stable!

Also, westeros has many impreswive buildings like the hightower, wall, red keep

But the east has a red temple thrice the size of the great sept, palaces larger than kings landing, giant pyramids, the titan, the greatest bridge ever, stone roads, triple walled cities, etc, etc...

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Hey, needless to say that you are right - it is a mix. GRRM didn't take a snapshot of everything in the world by that specific time and then copied what was there. He mixed in Costantinopole with other 1500's stuff.

Certainly. Though I think one thing that makes these comparisons extra difficult for Essos is the more or less complete lack of an Islam analogue. As we of course know it was a very big deal for the political and cultural structure of the Middle East and North Africa back then, whereas in ASOIAF the only thing places like Meereen, Qarth and Volantis etc have in common is using Valyrian as a diplomatic language and some other little stuff. Otherwise they are doing their own things, most Free Cities and other states in Essos even have their own religions after all.

So in that regard Essos is more like the ancient Middle East and Mediterranean than medieval.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

snip

I would agree - for Valyrian Essos! But not for modern Essos, not anymore. They're living in ruins and have retained the odd advantage, but by and large they have regressed too far.

[SeanF]

Braavos is probably more advanced than anywhere in the world. But Oldtown must also be one of the most advanced cities in the world. Lannisport probably runs close as well.

In much of Essos, the visible and enormous wealth of the elite is based on the exploitation of hordes of slaves. Overall, probably a higher proportion of the population in Westeros has a reasonably prosperous standard of living than in Essos. Social mobility is likely to be greater too. Per capita incomes are probably higher overall in the Reach and Westerlands than in most of Essos.

Braavos is an economic powerhouse. Probably some other towns and cities in Essos are too. But, Volantis and the cities of Slavers Bay are in decay. My impression from ACOK is that Qarth is past its best, as well.

[GoT_Academy]

Braavos is probably more advanced than anywhere in the world. But Oldtown must also be one of the most advanced cities in the world. Lannisport probably runs close as well.

In much of Essos, the visible and enormous wealth of the elite is based on the exploitation of hordes of slaves. Overall, probably a higher proportion of the population in Westeros has a reasonably prosperous standard of living than in Essos. Social mobility is likely to be greater too. Per capita incomes are probably higher overall in the Reach and Westerlands than in most of Essos.

Braavos is an economic powerhouse. Probably some other towns and cities in Essos are too. But, Volantis and the cities of Slavers Bay are in decay. My impression from ACOK is that Qarth is past its best, as well.

I agree with almost everything. The wealth of Essos' elite is indeed based on exploitation, and that's the basis for this video's Bold Prediction (trademark! haha) that Essos will fall into chaos. We also agree that the East is rotting from within, that's in the video. Check it out

[SeanF]

I agree with almost everything. The wealth of Essos' elite is indeed based on exploitation, and that's the basis for this video's Bold Prediction (trademark! haha) that Essos will fall into chaos. We also agree that the East is rotting from within, that's in the video. Check it out

It's worth bearing in mind, too, that a good deal of what we learn about Essos is through Dany's eyes. She's a child for much of the story, and everything looks bigger and better through the eyes of a child. No doubt Illyrio and Xaro live very well, but an adult might not be quite so awe-struck by their manses as Dany is, aged 12-15.

[The Holy Goat]

I've not thought of the Essosi civilizations as more advanced, as much as I've thought of them as different. Braavos might be the most advanced culture as of now, and the rest of the of the Free Cities are certainly quite advanced as well, but... Slaver's Bay? Ibben? The Dothraki Sea? The Jogos Nhai? All the other strange peoples? Not really. Old, certainly, since humanity seem to originate in Essos, but not advanced. Yi Ti i unknown. It certainly seem to have been among the greatest cultures once, but it seem to be in decline as of now. Asshai is advanced in terms of magic, but it's unknown what the rest of the city is like.

Economically Essos might be more powerful and more advanced, partially due to it's larger size and easier trade routes. That said, the houses Lannister, Tyrell, Hightower, Redwyne, Manderly, Frey and Arryns of Gulltown are described as quite rich.

Westeros is far more advanced when it comes to warfare though. There's a reason why the Golden Company, the largest and most competent of all free companies was founded by a Westerosi and is presently mainly run by and consiting of Westerosi exiles.

Culturally... I'd say Essos as of now, due to being older, but old does not always mean better, and the very fact that slavery is still a pillar for much of the economy suggests to me that it's still quite backwards in some aspects, great art and architecture aside.