Black Crow Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Agreed, but the thing is that I don't believe Greywater Watch is identified as a crannog. A typical reference, coming from a Frey brat, is... ...which suggests Greywater Watch is really just a larger, more elaborate variation of houseboat and that the crannogmen have quite a few. I think its a fair assumption that Greywater Watch is "identified" as a crannog, given that the crannogmen are so named and "even" their castles move. Notwithstanding which - and the fact that the Freys are merely repeating stories without first-hand knowledge - I still reckon that the mystery is more important than the mechanics, popular or otherwise. And with that, to work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 There was a late 1980's National Geographic Magazine that featured an article about these floating islands in the swamps of southern Georgia as the cover story... & I have always imagined that GRRM would have been a subscriber to Nat Geo... Especially since he is an avid reader & this was a decade before the internet gained popularity... Another likely influence is the Tad Williams series Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, which GRRM is known to have read and thought good and which features "marsh men." Also features a comet that is interpreted in various ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I think its a fair assumption that Greywater Watch is "identified" as a crannog, given that the crannogmen are so named and "even" their castles move. If a crannog is a house and an elaborate crannog is a castle and both forms move, then it sounds like we're in agreement. A small crannog might conceivably look like this. Otherwise, it sounds like the crannogs in this world are large floating platforms on top of which houses or castles can be built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Bah, I still contend Greywater Watch is just a shack on a raft with a little 'gator flag stuck on top, kind of like a houseboat in northern Florida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 If the Watch would go to the trouble of setting up protective wards, why bother with actually creating a physical Wall as well? I wouldn't settle for one form of protection if I expected serious threats to spend hundreds or thousands of years trying to kill me. I applaud you, sir. What we have here is a case of honesty so profound, it would revolutionize the R+L=J thread if it ever took root there.The R+L=J thread would shut down if honesty took root there."Honestly we cannot logically support our theory, leaving us with nothing left to say on the matter." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 The R+L=J thread would shut down if honesty took root there."Honestly we cannot logically support our theory, leaving us with nothing left to say on the matter."Heh, I just read a post in the General section explaining how a Great Council could be called to let Jon Targaryen out of his Night Watch vows so he could take the Iron Throne. For some reason the whole thing reminds me of Monty Python and King Arthur's debate with the mud stacking peasants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Bah, I still contend Greywater Watch is just a shack on a raft with a little 'gator flag stuck on top, kind of like a houseboat in northern Florida. I think you've nailed the floating houses, yep. Heh, I just read a post in the General section explaining how a Great Council could be called to let Jon Targaryen out of his Night Watch vows so he could take the Iron Throne. For some reason the whole thing reminds me of Monty Python and King Arthur's debate with the mud stacking peasants. Mud stacking is a pretty good metaphor; you lay a mud foundation, then build a mud story, then another on top of that... and you pray it never rains. You could also compare this type of theory-building to Sansa's snow castle. My own favorite metaphor, though, is Valyria immediately prior to the Doom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 very eloquentThat's an interesting thought. What was his goal, and did the idea start when he was LC of the NW...He may have been getting dreams once he got to the Wall.BR seems to be the type to not get bamboozled into a cave,so i'm wondering if there wasn't some quid pro quo going on and his was an accord versus a skilful manipulation of say Bran. I think it's also a matter of is he a bigger picture kind of guy or does he in addition or not have something that he's working toward :dunno: Yes, and if someone is going to plunge a sword into Catelyn's heart, Brienne seems like a likely candidate. If she's forced to play executioner to Jaime, I think this is what will finally get her to break her oath. Come to think of it, that's extremely fitting; Brienne has to break her oath so 'Oathkeeper' can die and make way for a new sword. And there's Jaime's dream, where Brienne is defending him with a burning sword against the ghosts of his past, with the sword itself being the only thing holding back the darkness. Just as there are several 'heroes' related to the original LN, I think we'll see at least three variations of the AA myth play out-- a literal red sword coming from the Riverlands, Dany's dragons from stone, and someone (probably Jon) 'reforging' the Pact and the NW, who also call themselves the swords in the darkness. Broadly speaking, you could call them AAR, the Prince that was Promised, and the Last Hero reborn.Each of those figures has also had similar dreams-- Jaime's dream about the depths of Casterly Rock, Jon's dream where he's fighting Wildlings and Ygritte on the Wall, armed and armored with fire and ice, and finally Dany's dream of burning Robert Baratheon's ghost on the Trident. In a situations like these where we have multiple people getting the same flaming sword dream i have to wonder. Is it an author device whereby he's laying the groundwork for characters and more specifically readers get to argue and interpret who we think AA,TPTWP was etc because he will leave that open. Or do we -and i'm leaning a bit toward this- in a world where people can be sent dreams via various methods from shadowy sources not think that some or all are not true dreams at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Heh, I just read a post in the General section explaining how a Great Council could be called to let Jon Targaryen out of his Night Watch vows so he could take the Iron Throne. For some reason the whole thing reminds me of Monty Python and King Arthur's debate with the mud stacking peasants. And that rather comes back to what I said earlier about the "significance" of Jon's parentage. If it takes a Great Council to put him on the Iron Throne it really doesn't matter whether his true name is Snow, Stark, Targaryen or Rumpelstiltskin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 There was a late 1980's National Geographic Magazine that featured an article about these floating islands in the swamps of southern Georgia as the cover story... & I have always imagined that GRRM would have been a subscriber to Nat Geo... Especially since he is an avid reader & this was a decade before the internet gained popularity...He probably has a whole stack of old issues gathering dust on the bookshelf in his studio house :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 In a situations like these where we have multiple people getting the same flaming sword dream i have to wonder. Is it an author device whereby he's laying the groundwork for characters and more specifically readers get to argue and interpret who we think AA,TPTWP was etc because he will leave that open. Or do we -and i'm leaning a bit toward this- in a world where people can be sent dreams via various methods from shadowy sources not think that some or all are not true dreams at all? Perhaps its simply a scattering of seeds, many of which will fall on stony ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 One of the more intriguing hints about Garth Greenhand is that his oldest stories involve blood sacrifice for a good harvest. What happens if theon is sacrificed in the next book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 One of the more intriguing hints about Garth Greenhand is that his oldest stories involve blood sacrifice for a good harvest..What happens if theon is sacrificed in the next book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 He'll be put out of his misery. But seriously, given the way he's been hacked about and already had important bits chopped off he rather comes into the damaged goods category and in terms of quality probably doesn't rank very highly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Heh, I just read a post in the General section explaining how a Great Council could be called to let Jon Targaryen out of his Night Watch vows so he could take the Iron Throne. For some reason the whole thing reminds me of Monty Python and King Arthur's debate with the mud stacking peasants. That's better than pointing to the scene in the show where Dany sees Snow in the throne room.It was actually interpreted in the other place as symbolism pointing to Jon Snow on the iron throne. It's all fated baby who needs a small council. Perhaps its simply a scattering of seeds, many of which will fall on stony ground. :thumbsup: This has got my endorsement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 That's better than pointing to the scene in the show where Dany sees Snow in the throne room.It was actually interpreted in the other place as symbolism pointing to Jon Snow on the iron throne. Cracks me up. Not only is that vision totally nonexistent in the canon, the show is full of scenes in which snow is on other, less regal things. Dead wildlings, for instance. Giants' asses. Horse chunks. Craster's burning keep. (Does this mean Jon Snow's parents were Craster and Lyanna, and the fire represented their burning love? Surely it must...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Interesting concepts... I believe that there will be but one AA & whoever it is will be reborn into Jon Snow's frozen body... Jon's body, with the scared palm on his sword hand would be ideal for holding a hot sword, would it not... Jon himself, will be busy playing Night's King while all of this takes place & will have little use of his original body...I can see the potential precedent for all of this; Varamyr is stuck in One-Eye, while his presumably reanimated and blue eyed body is wandering around, out of his control, free for the taking.Even so, it's my gut feeling that either Jon, or his wight-ified body, will be the key to the Others and the wights gaining access to the south side of the Wall. Maybe because he's a son of Winterfell, or maybe because he was the LC of the NW, but either way I think Jon is going to be opening the Black Gate, or sounding the Horn of Winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 In a situations like these where we have multiple people getting the same flaming sword dream i have to wonder. Is it an author device whereby he's laying the groundwork for characters and more specifically readers get to argue and interpret who we think AA,TPTWP was etc because he will leave that open. Or do we -and i'm leaning a bit toward this- in a world where people can be sent dreams via various methods from shadowy sources not think that some or all are not true dreams at all?Maybe a little bit of both. At the least, I'm certain GRRM means for the red comet's interpretations within the text to figuratively represent the way AA will be variously interpreted; we're all looking at the same characters, and same events, and coming to different conclusions.I do think the planting of dreams and visions is significant, though. In a world where magic is real, if you throw out some vague vision of a mythical fire sword being forged, odds are good that all sorts of weirdos will bend over backwards to try to make the vision come true. For example, it doesn't really matter whether Stannis is AA, just Mel's belief that he could be has profoundly altered his own history, and the history of Westeros.Additionally, there's the fact that real people are more complicated than the figures of songs and legend; sure, you can give someone dragons from stone/a flaming sword/whatever, but that doesn't mean they'll do what you want with them. As far as I'm concerned, Dany's entire aGoT arc was her 'forging Lightbringer' moment.And, as might be expected from a real human being, with motives and desires of their own, she's proving a rather uncooperative hero; I'd bet if we could have had a glimpse inside Quaithe's head at the end of the aSoS, it would have been something along the lines of: "She... wait, WHAT? Queen of Mereen? Are you fucking kidding me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Cracks me up. Not only is that vision totally nonexistent in the canon, the show is full of scenes in which snow is on other, less regal things. To be fair there's no way the novel's House of the Undying visions could be properly reproduced on the screen. Ultimately the point is that in the book Dany was offered a series of temptations calculated to seduce her into a trap. That some of those visions have provided hours of innocent amusement for readers trying to figure them out is neither here nor there since they would only confuse non-readers. Instead therefore the show-runners simply provided a couple of smaller but clearer seductions which viewers could relate to. As to the business of snow on the iron throne - and everything else in both visions - I think a rather more pertinent question is who burned the roof to let that snow fall in the throne room to start with. That is a question which non-readers are more likely to ask than jump up and down yelling "Look! Snow is on the Throne! Its a sign!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Cracks me up. Not only is that vision totally nonexistent in the canon, the show is full of scenes in which snow is on other, less regal things. Dead wildlings, for instance. Giants' asses. Horse chunks. Craster's burning keep. (Does this mean Jon Snow's parents were Craster and Lyanna, and the fire represented their burning love? Surely it must...)Snow on giants asses you say and wildlings you say? Clearly Jon Snow is the golden man (since he is Rhaegar's son) and Tormund is the giant with black blood pouring from his helm.And Hodor's original conscienceness (before he was warned by Bloodraven) I'd clearly the dragons stirring in Asshai... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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