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Heresy 149

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Welcome to Heresy, and a rather different look at the Song of Ice and Fire.



So what’s it all about about - and why has it been running for so long?



Well the short and sweet answer is that it is a free-flowing discussion, or argument if you will, largely concerned with the Wall, the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, and the Stark connection to it. But I’ts also a matter of looking at the broader story holistically and in the context of what else is happening in Martin’s world. The Heresy itself, if there is one, is simply a way of thinking that challenges those easy assumptions that the Others are the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne [or the other way around] for the story to reach its epic conclusion in a great battle on the Trident, pitting Dany’s amazing dragons and three dragonriders against the icy hordes.



Instead, some of us strongly suspect that the white walkers do not represent an evil empire of the snows, an icy version of a Dothraki khalasar about to embark on the last hurrah of the blue-eyed horde. Some likewise suspect that the dragons and their riders are not to be the saviours of Westeros, but rather a threat at least equal to that posed by the boys in the North. That’s not to say that the blue-eyed lot are actually going to turn out to be noble but misunderstood. As I often say, like Lord Byron they are still mad, bad and dangerous to know. Notwithstanding which, the old joke that it will not be a question of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others but of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons may in the end have some truth in it.



These are nevertheless just points of view, and no more than that. We all argue about them, sometimes passionately, just as we argue about most things, such as whether the white walkers are indeed Craster’s sons, and who is really behind what’s going on and why. If these aspects of the story are what interest you then Heresy is the place to discuss them.



If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.



Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

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Ah here's 149. I was wondering when the dawn would break :)

To Maester Sam


:agree: Case in point: the Dothraki "city" of Vaes Dothrak. Remember Viserys' shock when he realizes the famed city of the horse lords is just a heap of tents! By the looks of Meera and Jojen, they are unlikely to live in any sort of castle, floating or otherwise

While it is an easy thing to dismiss Meera and Jojen based on their froggish appearances, they come bearing Great Truths. Such truths as are hard to come by in the Ice and Fire series... Namely, the Ice and Fire portion of their Oath delivered, in person, to the Stark in Winterfell. "By Ice and Fire," (which they said together) implies they are privy to parts of the epic of which we remain ignorant.

As if their Father weren't reason enough, I think this verbatim quote of the series' title is a justifiable reason to give their words more weight than others' words. I believe, without a doubt, that Greywater Watch moves. That their Father reached the Isle of Faces. That the Wolf-Maid shielded their Father. And that their Father is the only remaining survivor, save Jon Snow, of the Tower of Joy episode.

To Eira Seren:

Heretic!! :laugh: Like your Shrouded Lord reference, it fits

Shrouded Lord, Shmouded Lord....honestly, he's not pertinent to the story in any scenario.

And lastly, to BC:

So why then the ongoing mystery?

Here the answer must surely be to read the [email protected]#%&*g question!

If Jon Snow's mother is Lyanna Stark then instead of roaring off on a Targaryen tangent, it means that Jon really is a son of Winterfell, he really does belong down in the crypts with all those other Starks and its as a son of Winterfell rather than a Targaryen that he can alter the dynamic of the story by engaging with the old gods.

I remind you, Ser, that...

While I like and enjoy this perspective, I think we must temper our relish of Ice with that of Fire. We cannot dismiss Targaryen blood/influence/power when posed with the ultimate dilemma of this series, and a certain Mr. Reed's perspective on it.

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Perfectly true - just call it a reaction to the the even more popular assumption that all of this is about recognising Jon Snow as a Targaryen Prince and future wielder of Lightbringer


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Ah here's 149. I was wondering when the dawn would break :)

To Maester Sam

While it is an easy thing to dismiss Meera and Jojen based on their froggish appearances, they come bearing Great Truths. Such truths as are hard to come by in the Ice and Fire series... Namely, the Ice and Fire portion of their Oath delivered, in person, to the Stark in Winterfell. "By Ice and Fire," (which they said together) implies they are privy to parts of the epic of which we remain ignorant.

As if their Father weren't reason enough, I think this verbatim quote of the series' title is a justifiable reason to give their words more weight than others' words. I believe, without a doubt, that Greywater Watch moves. That their Father reached the Isle of Faces. That the Wolf-Maid shielded their Father. And that their Father is the only remaining survivor, save Jon Snow, of the Tower of Joy episode.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I wasn't implying that Greywater watch wasn't moving, but merely suggesting that it may not be a castle in the traditional sense. A floating WF would be weird, IMO. And unnecessary. Castle walls and strong stone towers are built for protection, and if your 'castle' is impossible to find and access, they become obsolete. I don't dismiss the Reeds at all; in fact I agree that they are among the best-informed characters of the series and will likely have an important role to play in the coming books.

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From the first moment the Reeds said that Greywater Watch "moves," I figured it was some kind of floating fortress. Perhaps something like a big, camouflaged houseboat.


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From the first moment the Reeds said that Greywater Watch "moves," I figured it was some kind of floating fortress. Perhaps something like a big, camouflaged houseboat.

I have always assumed it to be a floating island - which do exist and people do live upon. Probably an artificial one, which can be moved slowly through the swamps if you have enough men with enough poles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_island

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Perfectly true - just call it a reaction to the the even more popular assumption that all of this is about recognising Jon Snow as a Targaryen Prince and future wielder of Lightbringer

Well, of course he can't wield Lightbringer--Jaime Lannister is going to be wieldling Lightbringer. I've already decided this is true, and no amount of textual evidence or logic to the contrary will dissuade me :box:

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While it is an easy thing to dismiss Meera and Jojen based on their froggish appearances, they come bearing Great Truths. Such truths as are hard to come by in the Ice and Fire series... Namely, the Ice and Fire portion of their Oath delivered, in person, to the Stark in Winterfell. "By Ice and Fire," (which they said together) implies they are privy to parts of the epic of which we remain ignorant.

Take this for what it's worth, but the vignette from the show on House Reed suggests that they began forming their bond with the Singers much earlier than the rest of the FM. Their version of history in the show is that, after the Neck was flooded by the Hammer of the Waters, the founder of House Reed decided to heed the powers of the Singers, and set up shop in the Neck.

Not only is this interesting to me because of the suggestion that House Reed were among the Singers earliest allies, but also because it suggests that the FM continued their theft of land well after the Breaking of Dorne and the Hammer of the Waters, an idea potentially supported by the Fist, which seems to have been the site of an ancient battle.

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One more thing complicating the picture of the Pact, and human-Singer relations, from the WB:

The Godsgrief himself was first to claim the rainwood, that wet wilderness that had hitherto belonged only to the children of the forest. His son Durran the Devout returned to the children most of what his father had seized, but a century later Durran Bronze-Axe took it back again, this time for good and all.


The rainwood is one of the oldest deep forests in Westeros, one of the only ones that still remains today, yet it was stolen well before the coming of the Andals, and seemingly not returned at the time of the Pact. Taken with the tale of the LH, and how it took him years to the find the Singers, the traditional view we've been given begins to look increasingly dubious.

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I suppose the short answer is that there is a difference between all out war and ongoing bickering,; but overall yes. The picture which emerges from the World Book rather denies Maester Luwin's suggestion that the Pact was followed by thousands of years of amity and peaceful co-existence. Instead, while the emerging story is far from straightforward and suggests a patchwork of local alliances and allegiances rather than a general peace it does appear to be consistent with men and the children standing apart rather than shoulder to shoulder during the Long Night, hence the difficulty experienced by the 13 heroes in finding them - or at least finding anyone prepared to talk.


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I suppose the short answer is that there is a difference between all out war and ongoing bickering,; but overall yes. The picture which emerges from the World Book rather denies Maester Luwin's suggestion that the Pact was followed by thousands of years of amity and peaceful co-existence. Instead, while the emerging story is far from straightforward and suggests a patchwork of local alliances and allegiances rather than a general peace it does appear to be consistent with men and the children standing apart rather than shoulder to shoulder during the Long Night, hence the difficulty experienced by the 13 heroes in finding them - or at least finding anyone prepared to talk.

It's also pretty much certain that the First Men continued to war among themselves after the Pact. We can see that with the way the Starks took over the North and the disunity of the various Vale kings when the Andals first invaded or were brought over essentially as mercenaries to eliminate rival kings.

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To Eira Seren:

Shrouded Lord, Shmouded Lord....honestly, he's not pertinent to the story in any scenario.

Then perhaps he should stop setting off the radar 😄

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Shrouded Lord, Shmouded Lord....honestly, he's not pertinent to the story in any scenario.

How can you tell?

We cannot dismiss Targaryen blood/influence/power when posed with the ultimate dilemma of this series, and a certain Mr. Reed's perspective on it.

We also can't demonstrate there is any Targaryen blood/influence/power. Meanwhile, the Stark side of the equation is as demonstrable as Jon's face.

From the first moment the Reeds said that Greywater Watch "moves," I figured it was some kind of floating fortress. Perhaps something like a big, camouflaged houseboat.

Much the same way I see it. Any invader would be so slow to progress in the uncharted bogs, it would be simple enough to track it and ensure Greywater Watch was nowhere near it. And this doesn't necessarily contradict the idea of a glamour or ward of some sort.

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If the crannogmen would go to the trouble of setting up protective wards, why bother with actually creating a physically moving fortress as well? I know overkill is fun and all, but come on...

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It's also pretty much certain that the First Men continued to war among themselves after the Pact. We can see that with the way the Starks took over the North and the disunity of the various Vale kings when the Andals first invaded or were brought over essentially as mercenaries to eliminate rival kings.

Well this is of course one of the central contradictions of Maester Luwin's rather cosy version. Hypothetically speaking, had Aegon the Conqueror agreed the Pact on behalf of all men in Westeros, he had the authority [and the dragons] to enforce his subjects strict compliance and adherence to the terms and conditions, but no, in those days there were 100 kingdoms all bickering and falling out amongst themselves, rising, falling, conquering and being swallowed up. I still think that these 100 kingdoms of the First Men are the origin of the 100 pieces of dragonglass given each year, but whether or not they were all party to the Pact at the beginning there were no guarantees of anything. Hence the suggestion that knowing Winter was coming, the children laid their plans to take advantage of it.

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The 100 pieces of dragon glass could be symbolic of the 100 kingdoms, but it could also mean a small original Nights watch or a small enemy force. As of right now a 100 pieces is more than enough for "crasters boys".


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If the crannogmen would go to the trouble of setting up protective wards, why bother with actually creating a physically moving fortress as well? I know overkill is fun and all, but come on...

The moving fortress part may be more of a natural phenomenon? Someone might have a better scientific understanding but I have the impression that marshy land can have shifting channels and isn't always fully tethered

Additionally there may be water magic at work, and depending on the level of green seeing I agree that there's a steady flow of information. Not sure if a glamour would be overkill however, as it might be like leaf, who uses a glamour... Perhaps only as needed?

And I also agree there's likely a price, though that may be paid already, as part of the package deal (the land is one) ?

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I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I wasn't implying that Greywater watch wasn't moving, but merely suggesting that it may not be a castle in the traditional sense. A floating WF would be weird, IMO. And unnecessary. Castle walls and strong stone towers are built for protection, and if your 'castle' is impossible to find and access, they become obsolete. I don't dismiss the Reeds at all; in fact I agree that they are among the best-informed characters of the series and will likely have an important role to play in the coming books.

Oh lol, must've really misunderstood you :)

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and the crannogmen live on crannogs which are floating man made islands ( im sure u can wikipedia it) so that explains why their homes move. Im sure some even have lil "holdfasts" on them too. I dont think crannogs were easily moved in history but this is a book


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