Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle becomes the Gendry/Arya/(possibly)Aegon?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Where there is a Jon/Arya/Gendry triangle, I'm not sure if it's a romantic triangle as such but rather a friendship triangle and case of Jon and Arya putting the Baratheons back in as Lords of Storms End via a legitimised Gendry (Brienne will kill Stannis in the north), Jon had a good relationship with Donal Noye whose character may be an Easter egg

In order for Gendry to be legitimized, all legitimate claimants (Stannis, Shireen, etc.) would have to be dead. Then after that, you have Edric Storm, whom GRRM has shrink-wrapped and shipped off to Essos precisely so he can sail home and take over the Stormlands should anything happen to the legitimate claimants.

In canon, Gendry is unacknowledged, can't read or write, and is neither a leader nor a warrior. Why would we want to ruin a perfectly awesome Blacksmith's apprentice by making him a lord? Arya wouldn't thank us for that and Jon, if he were king, wouldn't have any reason to do it. And I don't know that Gendry himself would want to be a Storm Lord...

And no offense, but I just can't see King Jon and Queen Arya sitting the Iron Throne, or the Ice one in the North, together. Again, any ending where Jon + a Stark girl = King and Queen of Westeros (and/or the North) is just as Disney as Jon/Dany could ever be. In fact, it's even cheesier because you'd have the tearful reunion ("But I thought you were dead!" "No, I'm alive, and I'm in love with you!") and then the plot contrivance of "wow, this is convenient! We're not really siblings! How handy -- now we can bang and have kids!"

And yes, sure, of course GRRM could make it palatable if not totally convincing. But while I adore GRRM's writing, his romances have not been his strong suit. The only ones that are convincing, like Ned/Cat, GRRM treats them with a light, almost casual hand. This would not be a Ned/Cat scenario at all.

With Jon and a Stark girl, you'd have not only the romance, you'd have all the internal POV agonizing over whether or not it's wrong or right, whether it makes them no better than Targs or Lannisters, etc. Then you'd get other Stark POVs adjusting to the change in their relationship to each other. Having everyone ignore Jon marrying his sister(s) without comment would be OOC. I think any romance among the main five will suck all the air out of the room (see: Dany's obsession with Daario in ADwD, which I didn't mind, but many readers did).

I just don't see how any major romance between two POV characters would work this late in the series, with only two books left and 1001 plot lines to tie together. Perhaps if GRRM had done the 5 year time jump... but certainly this is not in the cards now.

[Poorboy78]

The Gendry angle, I could see, I mean after all, it's obvious with the Robert and Lyanna angle and pretty much maybe , this time a Baratheon will win out against a dragon prince (jon). However, I re read a Dance with Dragons and I don't see anywhere in any way shape or form that Arya have ever interacted with Aegon. Tyrion, maybe loosely since she met him once, but seriously, Aegon? How? Where in the book did they even meet? Did I skip too many scenes?

[sleath56]

Who had one of his leading ladies raped and impregnated at the age of 13 by a 30-something and tried to pass it off as love!

Exactly, so will Gendry be raping Arya? GRRM also wrote Jeyne/Ramsay, another paedophilic relationship; will we use that as an example as well?

I already mention how the dynamic of Drogo/Dany is much different from a hypothetical Arya/Gendry.

Everyone knows its gross by our standards but the proof is on the paper that the morality in the text is not ours. Sure, lets judge it and how horrible it is but also lets understand that are qualms are different than the ones of the characters involved.

There's a large distance between showcasing medieval values, and supporting it. It seems to me that you think GRRM is at the latter, whereas I do not.

... and won't be replying to any more of your posts.

Likewise, I too believe the only way to answer someone who shares different opinions with me is to give a lofty statement about how I'm so above their agenda to "pick a fight" and ignore their existence.

Look: because this is likely the first time we've talked together on the forums, I don't want our conversation to end like that.

Let's try again:

You're arguing against the wind here, and clearly haven't read any of my other posts on this thread.

I'm not invested in whom Arya Stark ends up with or sleeps with, and my other posts (which you've ignored) clearly show that. It's foolhardy to ship ASOIAF canon, so I don't do it.

*Ahem*

Arya x Everyone.

I ship it. :cool4:

Jokes aside, I did indeed go through every one of your few posts on this thread and this is what I found:

I think that perhaps in the evolution of ASOIAF from the original outline, what was going to be a Jon/Arya romance ended up as Jon/Ygritte and Arya/Gendry.

I do think that Arya and Gendry will see each other again in the books. I don't know whether they'll get a happy ending, though.

-You theorize that the Jon/Arya will evolve into a Gendry/Arya, an opinion of yours, I'd presume, as there are no canonical facts or 'Words of God' claiming such an evolution.

I would agree with you, but GRRM himself wrote romantic undertones in their story. And clearly, GRRM originally intended for Arya to be the female character in ASOIAF with the romantic subplot.

Anyway, what's wrong with female characters having romantic subplots?

-You point that Gendry/Arya has romantic undertones in the book, which i disagree.

Those undertones, as said in my previous posts, are subject to interpretation.

The main reason why I think Arya and Gendry might work best IF GRRM still has given Arya a romantic storyline is because it'd be like a Robert/Lyanna do-over -- only with Arya, who's deadlier than her aunt and honed for survival, and Gendry, a Robert look-a-like with Stannis' stoic, taciturn, and stubborn personality (Gendry even worships the Red God now -- like uncle, like nephew).

But Arya would have to forgive Gendry for leaving her, and understand why he stayed with the Brotherhood... and Gendry would have to get over the gigantic chip he has on his shoulder about their class differences. That all remains to be seen.

-You justify that Arya/Gendry might work best as a pairing because of the theme between Lyanna and Robert, which I disagree.

I hope the girl actually survives the series. For what it's worth, I care most about her not ending up dead before Winter is over. I certainly care more about that than which character's bed she ends up warming.

Based on the above quotes, please forgive me for raising a brow at your impartial stance.

True, you may not care, and I am inclined to believe your assurances that you are not a shipper, but you seem to give off the air as someone who thinks that Gendry/Arya is something inevitable albeit if unpleasant, a notion I disagree on, and you may disagree on if we both misperceived the intentions of each others posts.

Seems like you're looking to pick a fight. I'll spare you the trouble, and won't be replying to any more of your posts.

You may not reply to my response, I am fine with that, I might be inclined to even question your integrity for breaking your vow as a Stark. :p

However, I at least wanted to break down and dissect how someone may interpret your posts as that of a Gendry/Arya shipper. Fan shipping is crazy and even crazier are shipping wars. In these threads, fights are bound to occur (though usually never as cringy as 'Dany War' threads), so you might best be prepared before frequenting these kind of threads if you don't expect heated and passionate battles.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

GRRM seems to believe Dany/Drogo is a love story though and likely will portray Lyanna and Rhaegar as that too as he never seems to have Ned think about Rhaegar with hostility. Its strange how no one on this forum really contemplates how young Lyanna was. Its all about whether she was willing, in our context it was definitely statutory. What is a 20 year old doing lusting after a 13/14 year old? The text glosses over those aspects and so the majority of the readership do to. Yes, he has a comment here and there about the youth of characters, Viserys thinks Dany is too young, Ned calls Lyanna a 'child woman' at 16, meaning at 14 and 15 she was most definitely too young but when it comes to telling the story its as if these ages don't exist. eg Dany having sex with Drogo in the open is not written like a 13 year old. You could be forgiven for thinking she looked like Emilia Clarke and not a barely teen girl. Look at the fanart of Lyanna and Rhaegar,15? If he can try and make those relationships romantic he can do it again.

[Poorboy78]

GRRM seems to believe Dany/Drogo is a love story though and likely will portray Lyanna and Rhaegar as that too as he never seems to have Ned think about Rhaegar with hostility. Its strange how no one on this forum really contemplates how young Lyanna was. Its all about whether she was willing, in our context it was definitely statutory. What is a 20 year old doing lusting after a 13/14 year old? The text glosses over those aspects and so the majority of the readership do to. Yes, he has a comment here and there about the youth of characters, Viserys thinks Dany is too young, Ned calls Lyanna a 'child woman' at 16, meaning at 14 and 15 she was most definitely too young but when it comes to telling the story its as if these ages don't exist. eg Dany having sex with Drogo in the open is not written like a 13 year old. You could be forgiven for thinking she looked like Emilia Clarke and not a barely teen girl. Look at the fanart of Lyanna and Rhaegar,15? If he can try and make those relationships romantic he can do it again.

But everyone is expecting Lyanna and Rhaegar to be romantic and THAT is exactly GRRM trap. He won't cave in to conventional demands. It's going to be rape because it has NEVER been raped before in any fantasy setting story. Always the chosen one born out of love. The fact that a bastard and a rape baby is now the savior in the north is going to be different. The fact that the noble prince was not as noble is even better. The fact that there was no love from Lyanna blows conventional story telling out of the way because it usually never happen to a central background character.

[Stormourne]

I'm going to put my two cents into these arguments.

Firstly, I must stress the fact that Arya/Jon would only work if, when they reunite, a few more years have passed. An Arya who's fourteen(ish) maybe? Also I only really take this position with the view that Jon is half-Targaryen. They are cousins.

Theirs should by no means be some fairy tale love story... far from it. Imagine this scenario: Arya finds her way home, hellbent on revenge (maybe she heard about Jon's betrayal?) somewhere along the way she finds out he's alive, but changed (resurrection?). They reunite and obviously realize how much they've changed. They travel together and perhaps try to take back their home--fight for Stannis, maybe? Who knows, anyway. Through their journey, they grow closer, perhaps they'll try to become who they were again; those two siblings who really understood each other in Winterfell, before the war. The more time they spend time together, the more their relationship deepens. At first, they try to emulate that strong sibling bond they had before, but somewhere along the way their relationship becomes one that is unhealthy. Could love, therefore, not grow from their shared loss and tragedy?

Their arc would be much better since they would, undoubtedly, realize that they have formed some sort of relationship that goes beyond the boundaries of normality. They know what they feel is wrong. I mean, look at the Lannister's for god's sake. But emotion is not subject to reason. This would make the story more interesting. And even after all that, it does not mean that they would even give in to their potential feelings for one another. There could be a bittersweet ending for them where they've found each other, are safe from their enemies, but have not pursued these new-found feelings of love that were born from tragedy and lose.

Does this sound far-fetched? I don't know, I hope not. I think this kind of cousin incest would make sense, and would make us readers more sympathetic to their relationship.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

But everyone is expecting Lyanna and Rhaegar to be romantic and THAT is exactly GRRM trap. He won't cave in to conventional demands. It's going to be rape because it has NEVER been raped before in any fantasy setting story. Always the chosen one born out of love. The fact that a bastard and a rape baby is now the savior in the north is going to be different. The fact that the noble prince was not as noble is even better. The fact that there was no love from Lyanna blows conventional story telling out of the way because it usually never happen to a central background character.

King Arthur was the product of rape. Merlin disguises Uther as Igraine's husband to have sex with her if he got the baby to raise.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

dp

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I'm going to put my two cents into these arguments.

Firstly, I must stress the fact that Arya/Jon would only work if, when they reunite, a few more years have passed. An Arya who's fourteen(ish) maybe? Also I only really take this position with the view that Jon is half-Targaryen. They are cousins.

Theirs should by no means be some fairy tale love story... far from it. Imagine this scenario: Arya finds her way home, hellbent on revenge (maybe she heard about Jon's betrayal?) somewhere along the way she finds out he's alive, but changed (resurrection?). They reunite and obviously realize how much they've changed. They travel together and perhaps try to take back their home--fight for Stannis, maybe? Who knows, anyway. Through their journey, they grow closer, perhaps they'll try to become who they were again; those two siblings who really understood each other in Winterfell, before the war. The more time they spend time together, the more their relationship deepens. At first, they try to emulate that strong sibling bond they had before, but somewhere along the way their relationship becomes one that is unhealthy. Could love, therefore, not grow from their shared loss and tragedy?

Their arc would be much better since they would, undoubtedly, realize that they have formed some sort of relationship that goes beyond the boundaries of normality. They know what they feel is wrong. I mean, look at the Lannister's for god's sake. But emotion is not subject to reason. This would make the story more interesting. And even after all that, it does not mean that they would even give in to their potential feelings for one another. There could be a bittersweet ending for them where they've found each other, are safe from their enemies, but have not pursued these new-found feelings of love that were born from tragedy and lose.

Does this sound far-fetched? I don't know, I hope not. I think this kind of cousin incest would make sense, and would make us readers more sympathetic to their relationship.

The very real challenge of Arya/Jon is that GRRM decided not to have the 5 year gap. Story time is pretty much marching forward in the normal course of events, without significant time skips or jumps.

I could see if Arya and Jon hadn't seen each other for 5 long years. In that case, it makes total sense that they would see each other differently. But we have limited story time left in both the books and the show, and in that time we have a lot of accomplish before this scenario could happen.

First, Jon has to come back to life and to his body. That's going to take up space and time in TWoW.

Then he has to somehow learn of his real parentage. Maybe it'll happen during his near death experience, to save time. Fine.

Then he has to come to terms with what it all means.

Then you've got to get Arya and Jon in the same space.

After that, you have to let Arya know that's not her brother... it's her cousin.

Then she has to come to terms with that, while dealing with the psychological damage of being Faceless.

Then they rebuild their connection beyond everything they've gone through.

Then they fall for each other.

I think that's the only way you'd get plausible Arya/Jon in the series. It could happen, but there really isn't a whole lot of time for it.

On the other hand, you've got built-in conflict with Arya/Gendry should they ever meet. Arya would resent him for abandoning her and despise him for leaving her all alone. ("He means to leave me too." Arya in ASOS). Gendry, for his part, would be alienated, then probably angered by post-Faceless!Arya, whom he assumed was either dead or married to Ramsay Bolton... a legitimized bastard himself. Of course, Gendry wouldn't know the details, nor would he necessarily know at first that it wasn't Arya. I could see them both being annoyed with each other, not indifferent.

This seems very much like the difference between Harry/Hermione and Ron/Hermione, or Luke/Leia and Han/Leia to me. On the one hand you have close brother-sister bonds that many people want to see turn romantic because of that closeness. Then on the other hand, there's the fiery bickering interaction between two people who many think could never get along because they're constantly at each other's throats, but it leads to something more.

Again, I generally hate couples like Ron/Hermione and Han/Leia. I don't like bickering as a means to relieve chemistry and tension. But I've seen this dog-and-pony show before... and not just in super popular stories, but in run of the mill SFF reads. There's even a line in ACOK that I read recently (on a re-read) where Gendry is directly compared with Jon. Someone assumes that he's the traitor's bastard, and Arya thinks specifically that he's not her brother. It's just crystal clear to me, and I wonder why others can't see it too.

[Tharvot]

"until Jon's true parentage is revealed in the final book". Happy to see that as I've convinced myself RLJ is gospel. Actually, if that is the truth, then 1st cousin relations isn't really that out there in the world of westeros, no?

[Poorboy78]

"until Jon's true parentage is revealed in the final book". Happy to see that as I've convinced myself RLJ is gospel. Actually, if that is the truth, then 1st cousin relations isn't really that out there in the world of westeros, no?

If you are Targaryen, Brother and SIsters are okay too.

Someone explain to me where i am missing the ARya/Aegon interaction for this to even be a thing. I been combing the books but I haven't seen anything that have them crossing path and interacting like Gendry /Arya or Jon/ Arya.

[Tharvot]

If you are Targaryen, Brother and SIsters are okay too.

Someone explain to me where i am missing the ARya/Aegon interaction for this to even be a thing. I been combing the books but I haven't seen anything that have them crossing path and interacting like Gendry /Arya or Jon/ Arya.

Its people grasping for the first targaryen male to pair with Arya since she supposedly is like Lyanna. Gendry is Robert's bastard, so you have the Dragon, Wolf, and Stag just like Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Robert before.

The Jon/Tyrion/Arya idea stemmed from GRRM's initial thoughts on the series where he was going to pit Jon and Tyrion as rivals against each other and Arya being a shared love interest...he has since scrapped that idea and gone in a different route.

[Poorboy78]

Its people grasping for the first targaryen male to pair with Arya since she supposedly is like Lyanna. Gendry is Robert's bastard, so you have the Dragon, Wolf, and Stag just like Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Robert before.

The Jon/Tyrion/Arya idea stemmed from GRRM's initial thoughts on the series where he was going to pit Jon and Tyrion as rivals against each other and Arya being a shared love interest...he has since scrapped that idea and gone in a different route.

So ... baseless assumption on Aegon/Arya part but pretty legit on the Gendry/ARya. I was about to say...had me combing the damn books several times over. Like..,"How did i missed that!"

[sleath56]

It's just crystal clear to me, and I wonder why others can't see it too.

Because it's not. All non-explicitly canon shipping is largely subject to interpretation; Gendry/Arya being no exception.

I really can't understand how someone who so constantly tells us that they are against shipping and a Gendry/Arya dynamic relationship exert so much of their effort to argue vehemently for it's existence.

[Stormourne]

Lets say the seventh and final book ends, and only 2-3 years have passed from the time in ADWD. Arya will be around 13-14 years old. I highly doubt she'll end up in a romantic relationship with anyone. Just look at the Mercy chapter. She's grown emotionless. When she killed *spoiler* she felt nothing, no joy or sadness.

The only reason I ship Jon/Arya (unlikely as it sounds) is because, with what I said before in mind, Arya is currently emotionless (self-defense mechanism?), and I don't think there is a character, aside from Jon Snow, who can help her regain those emotions she's lost (Their bond is strong as Valyrian steel, and still is strong, although they've been separated for years). It is through this process of regaining her emotions where she could, potentially, fall in love with one helping her (just being with family again can help her get back what she lost). Even if she's 13-14 at the time, it would still make sense, but let's not think for a second that she would even give into these new-found emotions, which, presumably, she would know is immoral and wrong. Honestly, I even doubt that Jon would have those kinds of feelings for his sister/cousin.

I just find it interesting if it goes down this path; a unrequited love that was born from confusion and loss.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

If you are Targaryen, Brother and SIsters are okay too.

Someone explain to me where i am missing the ARya/Aegon interaction for this to even be a thing. I been combing the books but I haven't seen anything that have them crossing path and interacting like Gendry /Arya or Jon/ Arya.

I find it more likely Sansa/Aegon could happen. Arya and Sansa are opposites and parallels. They go through the same issues in different ways because they are different.

Here is Aegon, handsome trueborn Targ son or Rhaegar Targaryen, actually from a bastard line.

Here is Jon, average looking bastard of Ned Stark, actually the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

I can see Arya and Sansa being on opposite sides in that way, although I think Aegon will be dead before Jon is outed.

Lets say the seventh and final book ends, and only 2-3 years have passed from the time in ADWD. Arya will be around 13-14 years old. I highly doubt she'll end up in a romantic relationship with anyone. Just look at the Mercy chapter. She's grown emotionless. When she killed *spoiler* she felt nothing, no joy or sadness.

The only reason I ship Jon/Arya (unlikely as it sounds) is because, with what I said before in mind, Arya is currently emotionless (self-defense mechanism?), and I don't think there is a character, aside from Jon Snow, who can help her regain those emotions she's lost (Their bond is strong as Valyrian steel, and still is strong, although they've been separated for years). It is through this process of regaining her emotions where she could, potentially, fall in love with one helping her (just being with family again can help her get back what she lost). Even if she's 13-14 at the time, it would still make sense, but let's not think for a second that she would even give into these new-found emotions, which, presumably, she would know is immoral and wrong. Honestly, I even doubt that Jon would have those kinds of feelings for his sister/cousin.

I just find it interesting if it goes down this path; a unrequited love that was born from confusion and loss.

How do you work that out? She was direct in what she did but the fact she did it comes from emotion right? If she was emotionless she would have left him alone.

Also, Mercy is one chapter where she is playing a part. I wouldn't read too much into it about Arya beyond the fact she isn't no one and Arya is still there.

Because it's not. All non-explicitly canon shipping is largely subject to interpretation; Gendry/Arya being no exception.

I really can't understand how someone who so constantly tells us that they are against shipping and a Gendry/Arya dynamic relationship exert so much of their effort to argue vehemently for it's existence.

Seriously? You need to have it written explicitly that they liked each other? You can't put two and two together from the breadcrumbs in the text? If every author was so literal and up front my degree would have been much easier!

Just because a person doesn't like something, doesn't mean they must be in denial of its existence. Its very clear there was a crush there.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

If Arya's grown emotionless, then I don't see that as justification for any ship. She'll remain No One and stay Faceless.

The return of her emotions is important if she is to become Arya Stark again.

Seriously? You need to have it written explicitly that they liked each other? You can't put two and two together from the breadcrumbs in the text? If every author was so literal and up front my degree would have been much easier!

Just because a person doesn't like something, doesn't mean they must be in denial of its existence. Its very clear there was a crush there.

Given the portion of that person's post you've quoted, AryaNymeriaVisenya, I assume it was written in response to me. However, I've ignored the poster entirely and wish they would do the same with my posts. Life's too short, and I don't want to get warning points or banned when further conversation seems futile. I'd rather not go back and forth with those who wish to psychoanalyze or mind read people they don't know based solely on posts on a message board about a fictional series.

Anyway, I've seen this happen before in recent epic fantasy. I spent years arguing why Ron and Hermione wouldn't end up together, then why Katniss and Peeta wouldn't... and had egg on my face after two cheesy epilogues. My inclination is actually to be drawn to Jon and Arya-type stories, where the characters are close and harmonious (Harry/Hermione, Gale/Katniss, many others). But it doesn't work for this genre. That's why I've spent time arguing against a ship archetype that I don't like in books and hate in the real world... I'd never date or marry a guy I argued with, called "stupid," or smacked around, but that's what makes for great literature. Millions love it. I get it now.

I also think it's pretty silly to use the characters' ages as justification for nothing happening, since Ron and Hermione were both 11 when they started their now-famous bickering and nothing happened between them romantically until the last couple of books, when they were older. There's just nothing cheesy about their relationship, and I found it off putting back in the late 1990s and early 2000s when I was reading the series. There's nothing cheesy, squicky, or pedophiliac about Arya and Gendry, either.

Like you, AryaNymeriaVisenya, I am amazed that more people don't see this, and am convinced that many GoT viewers (and some ASOIAF readers) don't really read much popular fantasy series or science fiction. The breadcrumbs in the text are how romance works here, since these aren't romances. You get "anvil sized hints" to quote Rowling. And it's really on viewers and readers if they don't put the clues together.

If Arya and Gendry see each other again, they'll have some type of romantic subplot, even if it's tragic. If they don't reunite, or if one or both dies, that's GRRM's way of subverting the trope. But the trope very clearly is there.

[Stormourne]

but that's what makes for great literature. Millions love it. I get it now.

Millions of people are stupid. :P

Why must Arya even have a romantic subplot? That's what we must ask ourselves. We can wish for one, but that does not mean it will happen.

[sleath56]

Seriously? You need to have it written explicitly that they liked each other? You can't put two and two together from the breadcrumbs in the text? If every author was so literal and up front my degree would have been much easier!

Just because a person doesn't like something, doesn't mean they must be in denial of its existence. Its very clear there was a crush there.

Of course they liked each other. They were at the very least friends - I'm not contesting that.

I am contesting how you believe that friendship to have a mutual romantic undertone and especially that you believe there to be a potential future for the pairing despite the two characters present circumstances.

Why must Arya even have a romantic subplot? That's what we must ask ourselves. We can wish for one, but that does not mean it will happen.

She doesn't need one. I don't see how people can talk about Arya's 'future love life' considering her present state. Shippers of all kind possess a remarkable motif for fantasy if they can see a traumatized, socially-immature child soldier and think "Yup, I see a hubby in her future" :dunno:

[Stormourne]

Guys, read this thread about Arya & Jon and their connection. :) It's interesting. This might make you jump Ship*. :D

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125364-jon-arya-hints-and-overall-significance-of-their-relationship-including-part-3/?hl=%20arya%20%20ship

And as for Gendry, any feelings of friendship she had from, he flushed down the toilet by abandoning her. She doesn't seem the type to forget such slights.