Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle becomes the Gendry/Arya/(possibly)Aegon?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

George is already trying to make Arya appear more feminine and mature (read Mercy) and he'll continue to do it even more so as the in books time passes by.

What are you talking about? Stark family tree alone has uncle/niece marriages if I'm not mistaken. It's basically the same. Anyways, I'd take Dany/Jon romance over Jon/Arya in a heartbeat. Though I'm now actually more of an opinion that George is actually going for the J/A.

Still less close than Jon/Dany, they didn't share a grandmother. So they are 'half uncles'. Still really, really gross but genetically closer to cousins as there was the Norrey and Manderley diversity. I'd be more concerned by the fact that the line comes from Cregan and a Stark of unknown origin.

Between Dany and Jon there is 1 instance of Genetic Diversity, Lyanna Stark as Rhaella was Aery's sister.

Between Arya/Sansa and Jon there are 2 instances of Genetic Diversity, Cat Tully and Rhaegar Targaryen

Between Serena Stark and Jonnel there are 2 instances of Genetic Diversity at least, Anna Norrey and Jeyne Manderley.

This is what we have descended into, degrees of incest. 'Its only her half uncle' :ack: Nasty.

I'm not so sure it would be overt incest in their culture. Yes, historically uncle/niece and aunt/nephew marriages were less common than first cousin marriages, but they were not unheard of, the most notorious example being the Habsburgs, but they were not the only ones, and if one tried, I'm positive they would be able to dig up far more such cases.

Anyway, these are the Targs we are speaking of, for them these rules don't apply. I really don't think that Dany would have a problem with marrying someone because he's her biological nephew since she grew up believing she'll become Viserys' wife one day. As for Jon, he was raised like a Stark and we know that Sansa and Serena Stark married their half uncles, so it's not such a jump to think that Jon would agree to marry his hot young aunt he never met until their late teens. (Particularly if compared to Arya/Jon and Sansa/Jon, which get thrown around as possible matches by parts of fandom.)

It would be the easiest thing imaginable for the author to introduce some Hightower girls. Anyway, Baelor Breakwind was a suitor for Elia's hand and he's married, so it would be only logical if he had at least one daughter of marriagable age. Then there is Desmera Redwyne, Sam's almost-betrothed. It's said she's got lots of freckles, so perhaps she's a redhead. (It's fate, I tell you! :lol: )

No seriously, I'm not arguing this will happen, but it would make vastly more sense to me.

The problem with Arya/Jon is that from the political standpoint it's nonsensical, and from the personal one... well, she's really got be older, unless the author plans for Jon to become a deviant, who falls in love with his barely pubescent sister cousin. I don't say it's impossible the author will push the timeline, but so far he's had big trouble doing it.

Rules DO apply to the Targs when they don't have the power to enforce their own way as Aegon V discovered when his kids caused a diplomatic ruckuss.

I don't think Dany would have a problem marrying her nephew at all. Yes, there were Half- Uncle marriages, Dany is his full aunt.

It would be easy to introduce any new characters but so close to the end? How satisfying would it be if it concluded as Jon marrying some girl who appeared right at the end because her dad is rich?

I think there is a way it could be politically expedient you know. If Robb's will resurfaces and names Jon King in the North and Lord of Winterfell. The Mountain Clans are behind 'The Ned's' girl. Marrying a cousin to keep 'The Ned's' blood in the line would be very wise in that instance. That way he consolidates his claim by having the bloodline of the previous lord, the oldest daughter of Ned that isn't kicked out due to her Lannister marriage as well as Robb's will. It would ease his concerns about dis-inheriting his siblings. However, I am still hoping for Rickon to claim his seat though.

[lojzelote]

Rules DO apply to the Targs when they don't have the power to enforce their own way as Aegon V discovered when his kids caused a diplomatic ruckuss.

I don't think Dany would have a problem marrying her nephew at all. Yes, there were Half- Uncle marriages, Dany is his full aunt.

It would be easy to introduce any new characters but so close to the end? How satisfying would it be if it concluded as Jon marrying some girl who appeared right at the end because her dad is rich?

I think there is a way it could be politically expedient you know. If Robb's will resurfaces and names Jon King in the North and Lord of Winterfell. The Mountain Clans are behind 'The Ned's' girl. Marrying a cousin to keep 'The Ned's' blood in the line would be very wise in that instance. That way he consolidates his claim by having the bloodline of the previous lord, the oldest daughter of Ned that isn't kicked out due to her Lannister marriage as well as Robb's will. It would ease his concerns about dis-inheriting his siblings. However, I am still hoping for Rickon to claim his seat though.

But, Jaehaerys and Shaera ended up married to each other, no? Later Jaehaerys succeeded his father as the King of the Seven Kingdoms and in turn he was succeeded by his son by Shaera. I'd say they pulled it off successfully... and they didn't even have dragons back then. ETA: Anyhow, the ruckuss followed because both kids were already betrothed to members of powerful families. If they were unpromised, there probably woudn't have been any problem.

I think you're stretching it a little with the (half) uncle/niece thing. I mean, if you claim that Jon would be more than willing to marry a girl he thought of as his half-sister (and she him, I'd expect) or a half-aunt (since they're game in this family, apparently), then it seems highly unlikely he would clutch his pearls over a marriage to a full aunt, really.

Satisfying? I don't know, Perhaps it would not be meant to be satisfying, especially for Jon. You know... a well-bred Seven-believer from the South... a bit like a young Catelyn Tully, mayhaps? :drunk: But no, I agree with you that it seems unlikely... but still more likely than an Arya/Jon marriage.

I think you will get your wish regarding Rickon. No need for Arya/Jon.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

But, Jaehaerys and Shaera ended up married to each other, no? Later Jaehaerys succeeded his father as the King of the Seven Kingdoms and in turn he was succeeded by his son by Shaera. I'd say they pulled it off successfully... and they didn't even have dragons back then. ETA: Anyhow, the ruckuss followed because both kids were already betrothed to members of powerful families. If they were unpromised, there probably woudn't have been any problem.

I think you're stretching it a little with the (half) uncle/niece thing. I mean, if you claim that Jon would be more than willing to marry a girl he thought of as his half-sister (and she him, I'd expect) or a half-aunt (since they're game in this family, apparently), then it seems highly unlikely he would clutch his pearls over a marriage to a full aunt, really.

Satisfying? I don't know, Perhaps it would not be meant to be satisfying, especially for Jon. You know... a well-bred Seven-believer from the South... a bit like a young Catelyn Tully, mayhaps? :drunk: But no, I agree with you that it seems unlikely... but still more likely than an Arya/Jon marriage.

I think you will get your wish regarding Rickon. No need for Arya/Jon.

All Eggs kids got what the wanted but at what cost? The renewed incest birthed Aerys and that destroyed the house because he was fruit loops. We're told by Barristan that Dunc skipping out on a Baratheon led to bloodshed. Doesn't seem like it was in their own generation, maybe this was the first inkling of revolt between the two houses? They were screwed over once and Rhaegar did it again. We have still to find out about Summerhall. The court hated Egg's policies and tried to undermine him to the point even he knew that they needed dragons to exert their will without repercussion.

I don't think Jon would marry his sister. I do think he would marry his cousin. I think he could explain away blurry lines but I really don't think he could reason his way out of his Aunt Dany even if he has never met her. Incest isn't a taboo because of feelings.

Here's praying Rickon isn't a shaggydog story.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I don't think fAegon will live long enough for a Gendry/Arya/Aegon triangle.

[lojzelote]

All Eggs kids got what the wanted but at what cost? The renewed incest birthed Aerys and that destroyed the house because he was fruit loops. We're told by Barristan that Dunc skipping out on a Baratheon led to bloodshed. Doesn't seem like it was in their own generation, maybe this was the first inkling of revolt between the two houses? They were screwed over once and Rhaegar did it again. We have still to find out about Summerhall. The court hated Egg's policies and tried to undermine him to the point even he knew that they needed dragons to exert their will without repercussion.

I don't think Jon would marry his sister. I do think he would marry his cousin. I think he could explain away blurry lines but I really don't think he could reason his way out of his Aunt Dany even if he has never met her. Incest isn't a taboo because of feelings.

Here's praying Rickon isn't a shaggydog story.

The actions of Egg's children were unfortunate because they were berothed to other people, whose families took offence. Egg's policies didn't have anything to do with marriage customs of House Targaryen (in fact, I believe it's mentioned that Egg wasn't a fan of intermarriage), but with improving commoners' lot in life, which his lords detested.

As far as we know, Jaehaerys met no obstacles when berothing Aerys to Rhaella.

Incest is a taboo exactly because of feelings. It's a psychological imprinting, not biological. It's nature's way of leading humans to avoid interbreeding... but if related humans aren't raised together, it doesn't work on them. Anyway, there's no reason to believe that Westerosi society is dead set against avunculate marriages. Not if it is truly based on medieval Europe.

Rickon's lines from the show make me believe that it's not.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The actions of Egg's children were unfortunate because they were berothed to other people, whose families took offence. Egg's policies didn't have anything to do with marriage customs of House Targaryen (in fact, I believe it's mentioned that Egg wasn't a fan of intermarriage), but with improving commoners' lot in life, which his lords detested.

As far as we know, Jaehaerys met no obstacles when berothing Aerys to Rhaella.

Incest is a taboo exactly because of feelings. It's a psychological imprinting, not biological. It's nature's way of leading humans to avoid interbreeding... but if related humans aren't raised together, it doesn't work on them. Anyway, there's no reason to believe that Westerosi society is dead set against avunculate marriages. Not if it is truly based on medieval Europe.

Rickon's lines from the show make me believe that it's not.

No but it proves that Targs couldn't just make rules for themselves and expect everyone to follow them with no hassle. At that point they had no dragons to threaten people to keep to themselves.

No one would care if brothers and sisters were in love if there wasn't biological consequences. We culturally enforce anti-incest for that reason. We don't have a way of knowing if we come across an unbeknownst relative but don't worry Iceland have an app for that http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/23/iceland-s-incest-prevention-app-gets-people-to-bump-their-phones-before-bumping-in-bed.html

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Seriously, this is the wrong series to argue the detrimental effects of incest. House Targaryen engaged in it for thousands of years and everyone else seemed to regularly marry their cousins...

[lojzelote]

No but it proves that Targs couldn't just make rules for themselves and expect everyone to follow them with no hassle. At that point they had no dragons to threaten people to keep to themselves.

Well, yes. But the subject of our debate was if Westeros allows incest for Targs or not. I wasn't really arguing for anything else.

[Annara Snow]

No one would care if brothers and sisters were in love if there wasn't biological consequences. We culturally enforce anti-incest for that reason. We don't have a way of knowing if we come across an unbeknownst relative but don't worry Iceland have an app for that http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/23/iceland-s-incest-prevention-app-gets-people-to-bump-their-phones-before-bumping-in-bed.html

Really? That's what you think? So, are you saying that people are OK with siblings, or parent or child, engaging in incest if 1) one or both are sterile, 2) they're both of the same sex, 3) they only engage in oral and anal sex or 4) they use really good protection? If it's just about the biology and children, then it should be perfectly OK and nobody should care?

Incest is not taboo just because of biology, it's primarily so because of its social aspect, which is why people are grossed out by the idea of foster or adopted family members screwing each other, or why marrying your brother's widow was considered incest in Shakespeare's time. Do you remember how "OK" the public was with Woody Allen marrying his common law wife's adopted daughter?

[Arya Targaryen]

Really? That's what you think? So, are you saying that people are OK with siblings, or parent or child, engaging in incest if 1) one or both are sterile, 2) they're both of the same sex, 3) they only engage in oral and anal sex or 4) they use really good protection? If it's just about the biology and children, then it should be perfectly OK and nobody should care?

Incest is not taboo just because of biology, it's primarily so because of its social aspect, which is why people are grossed out by the idea of foster or adopted family members screwing each other, or why marrying your brother's widow was considered incest in Shakespeare's time. Do you remember how "OK" the public was with Woody Allen marrying his common law wife's adopted daughter?

But it is. Incest had been taboo long before anybody would have cared about social stuff. It is an ancient taboo, so deep in human culture that obviously anybody would find it wrong (so is human cannibalism).

Adopted family members actually could marry for most of the time though there must have been some exceptions. Whatever the public thinks about Woody Allen, he most certainly could do it - and anyway, those opinions that are against something are always louder than those agreeing. We do have a famous 19. century writer in our county, who married his wife's bastard daughter's bastard daughter - whom he actually raised with his first wife, though never adopted. She was about 50 years younger than he was. That was a bit of a scandal, but he still could do it (legally). And mostly the problem was the age difference.

Humans are probably the most intelligent animals (biologically speaking). Our behaviour is based in inherited (genetically coded) and learnt behaviours. The more intelligent the animal is, the more its behaviour is based on learnt stuff, instead of just inherited. Human behaviour is mostly based on what we learn in our childhood, though there are a few inherited reflexes (like what newborn babies can do).

If a baby was raised in a culture that approves cannibalism - he wouldn't have any objection to it.

If a baby was raised in a culture that forbids blood-related sister/brother or parent/child sexual relations, he would still be OK with adopted kids or adopted siblings or cousins. (Hello, Westeros!)

if he is raised in a culture that allows incest on any level - he would have no problem with it at all.

If human beings have any inherited (genetically coded) opinion against incest, it must be very deep down. If the culture you are raised in teaches you something different, you will accept it. Even if you personally would not find your brother/sister/parent/child sexually attractive. But you wouldn't find it weird if someone else does.

It is kinda similar to homosexuality. If you go out and ask 100 persons on the street if they are attracted to the same gender, (and everybody is honest with you), you would probably get a 1:9 ratio (I've read somewhere a couple of years ago that every 10th man is homosexual - but the number is actually irrelevant).

But if you are raised in a culture which not only allows, but encourages homosexuality, that number would be much bigger. In ancient Greece most men had boy lovers. Because that was the normal way of life. Men are the most perfect creatures, therefore love between man and man is the perfect love (Platon).

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

So much incest talk...we are a weird forum!

Lets talk some animal incest like regular people :devil:

Anyone wonder if Nymeria is killing mates because she is 'waiting for' Ghost (she's not waiting but she won't go with a weaker wolf.)

'Nymeria stalked closer on wary feet. Ghost, already larger than his litter mates, smelled her, gave her ear a careful nip, and settled back down'

'[Jon]He messed up her [Arya's] hair again and walked away from her, Ghost moving silently behind him. Nymeria started to follow too, then stopped and came back when she saw Arya was not coming'

You have Nymeria, the 'Warrior Queen' reference and Ghosts 'Second Life fit for a King reference'

[Arya Targaryen]

LOL, I actually think that Nyeria and Ghost may make a, well, couple, once they meet again. Though I read somewhere, that wolves usually try to avoid incest, except if they are desperate (no other mate is available). And an alpha female definitely needs an alpha male, which was probably Ghost in the direwolf pack. So who knows.

[Annara Snow]

LOL, I actually think that Nyeria and Ghost may make a, well, couple, once they meet again. Though I read somewhere, that wolves usually try to avoid incest, except if they are desperate (no other mate is available). And an alpha female definitely needs an alpha male, which was probably Ghost in the direwolf pack. So who knows.

Summer is an alpha, he's been asserting his authority over other wolves, including Varamyr!One-Eye. Ghost is a loner.

[Annara Snow]

But it is. Incest had been taboo long before anybody would have cared about social stuff. It is an ancient taboo, so deep in human culture that obviously anybody would find it wrong (so is human cannibalism).

How would you know that? I very much doubt that anyone even had the concept of incest before the existence of family as a social unit. How could you have an incest taboo if you don't have the concept of family relations? The former is dependent on the latter.

If a baby was raised in a culture that forbids blood-related sister/brother or parent/child sexual relations, he would still be OK with adopted kids or adopted siblings or cousins. (Hello, Westeros!)

Actually, the complete opposite is true in real life. Genetic Sexual Attraction and Westermarck Effect are real psychological phenomena. In RL, boys and girls who grew up together - whether in adopted or foster families, or in social environments like the Israeli kibutz - are by and large grossed out by the idea of sex/romantic love/marriage to someone they grew up with; there have even been examples of boys and girls in Iran who were engaged to each other as children made to grow up together in order to facilitate the marriage, but it only lead to the opposite result - they were disgusted by the idea and categorically refused the marriage; one girl even told her family she'd rather become a prostitute and be shunned by the society, and the boy said she was the last girl in the world he'd want to marry, even though she was beautiful. And they did not hate each other or anything.

OTOH, there are numerous examples of biological siblings who only met as adults for the first time (because they were adopted, fostered, grew up in orphanages, had the same sperm donor...) falling for each other. Some of them ever opted to live together or marry (hiding their parentage). An article on GSA I read included an example of a woman who told the researchers that she didn't see anything wrong with her relationship with the man who is her biological half-sibling, but they only met as adults - but when asked if she would hook up with one of her adopted brothers she grew up with, she categorically said 'no' and was disgusted by the idea.

[Annara Snow]

Excuse me? This entire conversation started because you didn't like a theory I have about the way things are going. YOU accused me of suggesting that GRRM will be dropping storylines as you see them. I only pointed out that I have said nothing of the kind and that my theory doesn't require the dropping of anything.

You said:

I responded:

You said:

I responded:

Yet somehow this translates to me being the one misinterpreting posts???

Do you know why not having Aegon and Arianne get married wouldn't be dropping a storyline? Because Aegon and Arianne getting married is not a storyline. Nor is it considered a forgone conclusion by the fandom in general. Sure some of the fandom thinks it will happen. But another portion of the fandom thinks it won't. At this point no one knows what will happen, which means all options are open.

Which part of my original post on the subject of Arianne and Aegon didn't you understand? I'll repeat the points here: GRRM has set up this big storyline of Arianne going to meet Aegon after Doran gave her the responsibility to suss him out; her two first chapters in TWOW are about her just travelling to meet him, with the presence of other people like Daemon Sand (her former lover, and their relationship is elaborated on) and her unruly cousin Elia Sand. Previously, the Dornish chapters in AFFC/ADWD built up Arianne, her relationship with Doran, Doran's plans, her ambitions etc. But you're telling me that this is a red herring - Arianne will anticlimactically decide to recommend supporting Aegon unconditionally and without asking anything, Doran will offer Dorne's unconditional support, the entire buildup will be for nothing, Arianne will be off doing...something, the relationship between Aegon and the Dornish will not be explored, and instead, suddenly there will be this completely new storyline built up where Aegon will be wooing Sansa instead for the promise of her non-existent control over the North and the Riverlands and the control over Vale she definitely would not have - which also means that another story that has been built up and set up, LF's plans involving Sansa, HtH and SR, will also promptly be dropped!

Sorry, but this doesn't make sense.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Summer is an alpha, he's been asserting his authority over other wolves, including Varamyr!One-Eye. Ghost is a loner.

Ghost is the biggest wolf of the litter. Technically all mating direwolves are Alphas as the Alphas are the mating pair and the pack is the family. The biggest and strongest wolf gets the best mate. Nymeria is clearly a Queen of wolves, given her name and her actions in assembling an army. We have not seen her submit to anyone but Ghost who is 'fit for a King'. It would be strange if Jon, who clearly wants a pack, is reflected in Ghost who does not.

I am so shipping Nymeria/Ghost. :p

[Mithras]

I suggest all to read this.

[The Undead Martyr]

Ghost is the biggest wolf of the litter. Technically all mating direwolves are Alphas as the Alphas are the mating pair and the pack is the family. The biggest and strongest wolf gets the best mate. Nymeria is clearly a Queen of wolves, given her name and her actions in assembling an army. We have not seen her submit to anyone but Ghost who is 'fit for a King'. It would be strange if Jon, who clearly wants a pack, is reflected in Ghost who does not.

I am so shipping Nymeria/Ghost. :P

This is already my headcanon, as a nod to GRRM's original draft ( :stillsick: ) and for the Lols of the two of them sitting awkwardly while their beasties do the nasty...

bonus if Jon thinks "we're not bloody targaryens" in response. :cool4:

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

This is already my headcanon, as a nod to GRRM's original draft ( :stillsick: ) and for the Lols of the two of them sitting awkwardly while their beasties do the nasty...

bonus if Jon thinks "we're not bloody targaryens" in response. :cool4:

Rule 1- Never Warg a Human (Bran breaks it)

Rule 2- Never feed on human flesh while in the beast (Arya and I think Bran break that one)

Rule 3- Never be in your animal when its doing the Nasty ( Jon, looking at you buddy)

[Annara Snow]

Rule 1- Never Warg a Human (Bran breaks it)

Rule 2- Never feed on human flesh while in the beast (Arya and I think Bran break that one)

Rule 3- Never be in your animal when its doing the Nasty ( Jon, looking at you buddy)

I don't remember Arya ever eating human flesh while in Nymeria? She was in her while Nymeria was killing the Mummers, but I don't think she was eating them. She's also not controlling Nym, at least not consciously.

Bran!Summer ate some of the dead NW mutineers, IRRC.

None of the direwolves seem to have done the nasty yet - wonder when some of them would. I bet Summer will be the first, he's been hanging out with the trio of wolves that he's become alpha to, one of them is a female. It would be pretty awkward if Bran warged him when it happens, but he's already broken two of the three sacred rules of skinchanging without knowing they even existed, so I can see him breaking the third, too, eventually.