The Bastard of Walton Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'll go out on a limb & go for a Jon/Dany/Aegon love triangle or a Sansa/Aegon/Arrianne.Maybe a Aegon/Arrianne/JonCon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The outline also says that it will lead to a deadly rivalry between the two, and I can't see such a rivalry develop without at least some insecurity from one part... Like, Shiera repeatedly refused to mary Bloodraven, he might have (irrationally, maybe?) attributed it to Bittersteel. Who knows... But since Jon thought for most of the three novels that they are siblings with Arya, the love between the two of them was not so straightforward, and he might have felt threatened by the possibility that another man, who has no legal obstacles, loves Arya so much. Any rivalry at this point from Jon's POV is completely useless, as he cannot have Arya anyway due to several reasons. I honestly hardly believe we are discussing a few-page outline in such detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 ^ Tyrion wasn't supposed to be dwarf and hideous according to the draft, anyway: that would be a major point to omit (*and a major change from draft to actual books too). So, there's that, too... Feed us George! Feed us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Jorah Daario \ / Meera Dany - Tyrion - Penny / \ / \Bran Jon (f)Aegon - Arianne - Daemon Sand \ / \ Shireen Val - Stannis - Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber W Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 ^ Tyrion wasn't supposed to be dwarf and hideous according to the draft, anyway: that would be a major point to omit (*and a major change from draft to actual books too). So, there's that, too... Feed us George! Feed us... Do we know for sure that he wasn't? I just assumed it was in the 13 chapters he sent along, but I might well be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elm Tree Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 When I read that outline I was so disappointed in GRRM. The worst part is that I think there's a significant chance he's still planning to go ahead with some of it. In this case, a Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle seems exceedingly unlikely, but I think a Gendry/Arya/Jon triangle could very much become a thing, no matter how much I dislike it. I always thought Arya and Jon would end up meeting each other again and that something significant would come from it, but not this. However, now that I look at it from this angle, it seems quite likely GRRM is working towards it: there's the fact they think about each other a lot, Arya keeping Needle and it grounding her as she continues her training, Jon's rushing out to save her, abandoning his vows etc. Tyrion's relation to Sansa and the fact that he doesn't think twice about Arya seems to rule this out, but Gentry could be a likely replacement; if there's going to be a triangle, he seems the only likely candidate given that he seemed to have feelings for Arya (and visa versa). It would also harken back to Robert/Lyana/Rhaegar, and GRRM does seem to like these parallels. All in all, I think this is quite likely to happen - even if the thought makes me queasy. Well, if my little sister was sold to a beast and I had the chance to do something about it, I'd take the chance for sure. That doesn't mean I love her any other way than platonic. They think about each other a lot because they were so similar and they miss each other, and because know from each other that they are still alive. Still just normal brother/sister love. I'm not saying GRRM might not take that route, only that so far there has been no clear indication he would go there. If not for the original draft, people would dismiss this way more easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Jorah Daario \ / Meera Dany - Tyrion - Penny / \ / \ Bran Jon (f)Aegon - Arianne - Daemon Sand \ / \ Shireen Val - Stannis - Mel Are you trying to make me crosseyed, because it's totally working. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber W Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Well, if my little sister was sold to a beast and I had the chance to do something about it, I'd take the chance for sure. That doesn't mean I love her any other way than platonic. They think about each other a lot because they were so similar and they miss each other, and because know from each other that they are still alive. Still just normal brother/sister love. I'm not saying GRRM might not take that route, only that so far there has been no clear indication he would go there. If not for the original draft, people would dismiss this way more easily. Of course. I too saw this as completely platonic up until now. I'm pretty sure I've even gotten into discussions with people on here who used this as arguments, saying that they were insane, that it wasn't proof, and that GRRM would never go there. But now we know for a fact that he was very much planning to go there, suddenly these innocent occurrences could be seen as evidence. We know that when planning his novel, this is where he wanted it to go. I hope and pray he changed his mind - but instances like the ones I mentioned could be seen as indications that he hasn't. The link between them is elaborated on too often for GRRM just to be thinking 'hmm, how about I emphasise again how much these two sort-of-siblings who I imagined in a romantic relationship but are now in a completely platonic relationship mean to each other'. So when you say ' If not for the original draft, people would dismiss this way more easily.' ,know that I too used to dismiss it completely - but then we read the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Jorah Daario \ / Meera Dany - Tyrion - Penny / \ / \ Bran Jon (f)Aegon - Arianne - Daemon Sand \ / \ Shireen Val - Stannis - Mel Shouldn't there be a dash between Jon and Mel, rather than Stannis and Val? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Really? You're saying that GRRM, in 99% of cases, sets up a big storyline involving a POV character, and then abruptly drops it in an anticlimactic manner, only to he could laugh at his readers: "Ha ha, got you! Psych!" Tell me just one example. Not 99%, just one example.There is none. That would be terrible writing, and he is not a terrible writer. He's got JonCon and other adults around him to advise him. Not to mention Varys, who seems strangely to disappear entirely in your vision of Aegon's story, with Littlefinger taking over his storyline and plans as if he doesn't have his own already, while Varys becomes completely insignificant. Another thing that is extremely unlikely to happen in these books.One don't have to have read the books to know that Dornish support and alliance must be gained and maintained, one just needs an ounce of common sense. What would be the point then of squeezing him into her story, with just two books remaining, and both characters having different story lines with different characters in different geographical locations?That's not what I said at all. I didn't say anything about dropping storylines. I said he makes things look one way and then shows us that they're actually another. Here's an example: flashing neon sign--the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn because he knew about the twincest.reality--Lysa killed her husband (with Petyr's urging) so that she and LF could be together. Varys doesn't disappear in this theory. I just can't predict him at all, so I don't know what all he'll be doing, thus I don't try to cover that. Do you have any sons in their teens? Because I do, and I can tell you that they are not always the most prudent individuals. Aegon went against JonCon's advice already by going to Westeros instead of to meet up with Dany. Even if he knows he needs Dorne, he might still mess it up due to arrogance, and being a guy. Look what happened to Robb, who also had advisors and everything at stake (arguably more because of his sisters). What would be the point? How about continuing the themes already established? Feelings vs Duty. Players vs Pawns (and pawns who think they are players). And the absolute futility of everyone jockeying for the throne when the realm is in dire danger. Only two books left? GRRM can pack an awful lot into one chapter. One book is enough to resolve all of this and then some. Different storylines--for now. Different geographical locations--for now. Dany's on another continent, but no one doubts she's going to get in the mix. Geography and storylines are changeable. Everything is going to merge, and a Stark needs to be in the center of the game. Arya's too far away, as are Bran and Rickon, and Jon is busy hovering between life and death until TWoW comes out. Sansa is being set up to be the politician/diplomat of the Stark family. She will be involved "the game." There's really no reason to give her the back-story and current arc she has only to yank her out of everything. I don't consider this squeezing anyone into anyone else's storyline. I consider it starting to pull everything together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 <snip I honestly hardly believe we are discussing a few-page outline in such detail. We need the next book. We're so hungry for it, we'll even devour this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That's not what I said at all. I didn't say anything about dropping storylines. I said he makes things look one way and then shows us that they're actually another. Here's an example: flashing neon sign--the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn because he knew about the twincest. reality--Lysa killed her husband (with Petyr's urging) so that she and LF could be together. I was talking about dropping storylines. You're trying to misinterpret my words and talk about something else. Murder mysteries =/= set up storylines for POV characters. Arianne has a storyline that's clearly shaping up, one that's about Aegon and Dorne's potential support for him/participation in the upcoming Dance. But, according to you, GRRM is just fooling us with those two setup chapters where she's travelling to meet him, and the other setup from AFFC/ADWD - no, Dorne is just going to support Aegon without question, Arianne will have one unimportant talk with Aegon and then go to... do whatever, or nothing, and what we thought was her storyline is actually going to be Sansa's, for some reason! That would be like GRRM writing something like this: flashing neon sign - there's some interesting tension between Jaime and Brienne there in the Riverlands... reality - nah, Jaime gets killed halfway through, GRRM was just fooling you! Brienne's real storyline is going to be all about Tyrion! flashing neon sign--Bran has magical abilities, and will travel North to find the Three-Eyed Crow and learn more about them. (That flashing neon sign was there since book 1) reality--The Three-Eyed Crow will tell Bran in a dream "Meh, you already know all you gonna know. Bring me Jon Snow instead." And then Bran does nothing, and Jon gets to be mentored by Bloodraven in addition to being LC, because why not give Jon other character' storylines in addition to his own? Yeah, GRRM doesn't do this kind of thing, because he's not a bad writer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Maverick Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I wouldn't take the letter too literally and a significant love triangle seems unlikely at this point. Especially one that involves Arya, Jon, Tyrion or the characters you named. Just seems like an odd direction for any of those characters' storylines to go in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthGirl Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Jaime also mentioned a baker. Sansa could marry Hot Pie. You read my mind. :thumbsup: God I hope not... My sentiments exactly. :agree: Arya's husband resembles Asha's. His name is Needle. :fencing: YESSSS Can we pause for a second and look at the facts: This is Arya... Do you really think that by the time her role becomes bigger her concerns will be "Team Gendry or Aegon?" She's got awesome deaths to plan. That this conversation started to veer into every romantic possibility in the series outside of Arya in the first page pretty much shows how in our collective mind, she is just not about that life. The only person that is even remotely a romantic option for Arya is Gendry but they're apart, she's 11 and has bigger fish to fry. Not saying the girl didn't have crush...just sayin', priorities. This is Arya... do you really think she will deal with a love triangle? She is so freaking stubborn that if she falls in love, she will never budge. The third party can moon all they like, that will not be her problem. Indecisive, a girl is not. Hell, if she survives the whole thing, she will probably just spend her time trying to avoid lady duties. I just hope he leaves the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna/Robert come again completely out the window. I hate the idea of it, it would bore me to tears and be awfully contrived. I refuse to even address a romantic love anything involving Jon and Arya. :ack: :rolleyes: In conclusion, I will basically cry bitter tears if I catch even a whiff of this in the story. Death to all love triangles, I hate them. I hate them so bad it hurts to see the two words in the same sentence. I really think there should be a moratorium on using them for the next decade of entertainment. Seriously, I hate them. :angry2: :tantrum: :bawl: PS: Poor Jon, he probably just wants to marry someone he is not related to. Is that too much to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I don't know how people can ignore the neon signs that Aegon and Arianne are going to be the next political marriage. The idea that Aegon doesn't need her because he's just going to be given Dorne's support on a plate doesn't hold water. Really, the Dornish are just going to offer unconditional support to his guy who comes out of nowhere and claims to be Elia's son, and they're not going to ask for anything? Do people really believe that? Is that what Arianne's TWOW role is going to be - she's got two chapters just setting up her meeting with Aegon, and then she (who's been given the authority on the matter by Doran) is just going to give Aegon unconditional support, and that would be the anticlimactic end to this storyline, with Arianne doing nothing for the rest of the book? If one believes that Sansa has the North, the Riverlands and the Vale, it is not a further strech to think that fAegon already has Dorne and so does not have to marry Arianne. This of course has no logic behind. One only needs to look at Borros Baratheon to see how this idea falls apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Jorah Daario \ / Meera Dany - Tyrion - Penny / \ / \ Bran Jon (f)Aegon - Arianne - Daemon Sand \ / \ Shireen Val - Stannis - Mel You forgot to bind Elia Sand to fAegon and Victarion to Dany :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 ^ Tyrion wasn't supposed to be dwarf and hideous according to the draft, anyway: that would be a major point to omit (*and a major change from draft to actual books too). So, there's that, too... Feed us George! Feed us... The draft does not say that Tyrion is a dwarf but George also sent 13 chapters with that letter. From those chapters, it might be quite obvious that Tyrion is a dwarf and so there is no need to call him a dwarf in that letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Of course. I too saw this as completely platonic up until now. I'm pretty sure I've even gotten into discussions with people on here who used this as arguments, saying that they were insane, that it wasn't proof, and that GRRM would never go there. But now we know for a fact that he was very much planning to go there, suddenly these innocent occurrences could be seen as evidence. We know that when planning his novel, this is where he wanted it to go. I hope and pray he changed his mind - but instances like the ones I mentioned could be seen as indications that he hasn't. The link between them is elaborated on too often for GRRM just to be thinking 'hmm, how about I emphasise again how much these two sort-of-siblings who I imagined in a romantic relationship but are now in a completely platonic relationship mean to each other'. So when you say ' If not for the original draft, people would dismiss this way more easily.' ,know that I too used to dismiss it completely - but then we read the draft. Exactly. I'm making this relationship a point of my next re-read. I too considered it platonic. Off the top of my head I can think of some very romantic thoughts if looked at again: -Only her father ever called her pretty, and Jon sometimes. -Jon wouldn't care who she killed she thinks, Jon would want her no matter what -They finish each others sentences to the point they both have near word exact thoughts about the other. In their misery, things would be much better if they were together. - Needle represents Jon Snow primarily and she is not giving that up for anyone, nor would she betray him even to her father she thinks. Pyschologically that is something of an interesting transfer of affections for a young girl.'Needle was Jon Snow's smile' and that nearly makes her cry. -The comparisons Jon makes between Arya and Ygritte, not just personality, he compares their bodies too. She stands their naked and asks him if he would sleep with his sister and its hard to wonder if in some way, he's not trying to! Or his mother, boy has issues. -He kept comparing the flirty Alys Karstark to his sister! -His last thoughts before being stabbed the fourth time is what he said to Arya the last time he saw her. Jon and Arya clearly love each other more than anyone else in the world. I don't think anyone ever disputed that. Its just the manner of love. Who is going to be left Jon is not related to. That is the reason it seems everyone is clinging to Val. Auntie Dany and his sister-cousins, yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Do we know for sure that he wasn't? I just assumed it was in the 13 chapters he sent along, but I might well be wrong. The draft does not say that Tyrion is a dwarf but George also sent 13 chapters with that letter. From those chapters, it might be quite obvious that Tyrion is a dwarf and so there is no need to call him a dwarf in that letter. Tyrion's dwarfism is a hugely defining point for his character, as much as bastardy is for Jon Snow and maybe even more. But there's nothing at all in that draft that remotely hints at a disability. :dunno: It also seems to me that draft!Tyrion encompasses aspects of book!Tywin. Who is going to be left Jon is not related to. That is the reason it seems everyone is clinging to Val. Auntie Dany and his sister-cousins, yikes. Val, the lonely-lovely-lethal. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If one believes that Sansa has the North, the Riverlands and the Vale, it is not a further strech to think that fAegon already has Dorne and so does not have to marry Arianne. This of course has no logic behind. One only needs to look at Borros Baratheon to see how this idea falls apart.Exactly my point all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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