Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle becomes the Gendry/Arya/(possibly)Aegon?

[Mithras]

I do not buy Jon-Arya endgame but it is far more doable than burning Shireen alive on the show.

[sleath56]

I would agree with you, but GRRM himself wrote romantic undertones in their story. And clearly, GRRM originally intended for Arya to be the female character in ASOIAF with the romantic subplot.

First off, much of those 'romantic undertones' are subject to interpretation.

Secondly: Romantic undertones =/= they will get together, a notion that seems to be incomprehensible to every shipper- ever.

Thirdly: Arya is bloody eleven years old. Perhaps my greatest justification for why Arya will not have a romance subplot in her story is because GRRM did not do the time-skip. Perhaps it was at that time where he jossed the Jon/Arya idea, as well.

If something like this, against all the odds, does happen, I can't imagine the majority of readers to be pleased with reading something that would be outright paedophilic.

Anyway, what's wrong with strong female characters having romantic subplots?

You missed that part of my statement- a very large part. Perhaps the reason I am annoyed with it is because it is so damn sexist. I am not a regular feminist, but when there are thousands of strong badass male lead characters in literature that don't have a romance subplot, whilst nearly nil female leads of the same variety that don't. For some reason, the authors, male or female, had decided all women need a hubby. It's insulting to the characters they write.

In most cases, it doesn't even fit the character. Take Arya, for example: she's an tomboy-turned PTSD child assassin. She herself said that she does not want to get married- ever. Of course, most tomboys 'mature' from that stance as they grow up, but Arya does not have a childhood in which that stance could evolve from.

How does a romance even fit in there?

Perhaps part of the reason why Gendry is a popular choice for Arya is because she'd be the alpha character in any such romance, and that's not usual in fantasy fiction. Those two remind me a lot of Hermione and Ron in the Harry Potter novels, and we know how that turned out in the end.

If that's the main reason people ship Gendry/Arya, then why not ship Hot Pie? He's even meeker, and is the poster-child for a stay-at-home husband, what with his cooking, and all.

[sleath56]

Juliet was 13, Romeo around 20. Arya WILL be that age if the romance is still in cards for her, be it Jon or Gendry. I hate the age argument.

How hilarious of you to think 16th century values are applicable to a 21st century context.

[naseridrl]

God I really hope not. Why does she need to marry anyone, not everyone wants that kind of love in their life. She's a hugely damaged little girl what she needs are good trusted friends. Plus I really like Arya so I don't want her involved in any kind of romance because fantasy book romance is usually awful and so far none of GRRM's couples have interested me at all.

[sleath56]

God I really hope not. Why does she need to marry anyone, not everyone wants that kind of love in their life. She's a hugely damaged little girl what she needs are good trusted friends. Plus I really like Arya so I don't want her involved in any kind of romance because fantasy book romance is usually awful and so far none of GRRM's couples have interested me at all.

:agree:

It's not by coincidence most martially-strong female leads with a love interest devolve into a generic tsundere.

[lojzelote]

Juliet was 13, Romeo around 20. Arya WILL be that age if the romance is still in cards for her, be it Jon or Gendry. I hate the age argument.

Just dropping by, but I found an essay I've wanted to post last time I argued here, but couldn't find it. Well, here it is: The Problem with Juliet . In other words, It's still gross as hell. Even in Shakespeare's times, Juliet would have been a rare exception to the rule, considered too young for marriage and sex by most. So, not really accurate either, and I don't think that Shakespeare having been needlessly gross is an excuse for GRRM to be gross and inaccurate in his work as well. If only because people then get some crazy ideas about the real life in Middle Ages and Early Modernity. *shrugs*

[AllOfTheHours]

I would have been okay with Jon/Arya if it 1.) happened after the timeskip and 2.) if Arya became more comfortable with the idea of marriage as a consenting adult. So those would be my two stipulations. (The only ship I fully disagree with is Jon/Dany, so if it's a choice between the two ships, I would chose Jon/Arya.)

But I do have some problems with the rational/evidence supporting Jon/Arya, like the argument I've seen several times by different people that GRRM planned J/A in the Outline to put Sansa in her place since Arya usurps her by being Queen. But, in the Outline, Sansa was a Queen. Joffrey's Queen, but she was still Queen. If Arya became Queen too, it wouldn't be instead of Sansa, it would be after her. If anything they would become equals and balance out the power dynamics, not flip them, if Sansa lived long enough to see her sister crowned.

And the age difference without the timeskip is just strange:

Just dropping by, but I found an essay I've wanted to post last time I argued here, but couldn't find it. Well, here it is: The Problem with Juliet . In other words, It's still gross as hell. Even in Shakespeare's times, Juliet would have been a rare exception to the rule, considered too young for marriage and sex by most. So, not really accurate either, and I don't think that Shakespeare having been needlessly gross is an excuse for GRRM to be gross and inaccurate in his work as well. If only because people then get some crazy ideas about the real life in Middle Ages and Early Modernity. *shrugs*

Yeah, IIRC Romeo & Juliet starts off with Juliet's parents arguing about whether she is too young to marry. And Juliet's mother is like she was married as young. And the Dad's like that's why Juliet's mom is so messed up and bitter, because she was married and impregnated too young. And that's at 13. Arya is currently 11, so she may be barely 13 by the time the series ends.

Even when Sansa was 12, Tyrion comments on just how young she seemed to him. Younger than any whores he'd ever been with and he calls her a "child." Even though people are married at that age in Westeros/medieval Europe, they would normally wait to consummate because pregnancy that young can be severely damaging to the girl-wives. The only reason Tywin married Sansa off so young and urges consummation is because he was at war with her family and he didn't care about her long-term health.

15-16 seems to be the youngest normal age range for marriages. With the time skip that was planned, Arya would have been 16 when she came back to Westeros. Any relationship with Jon would have happened between the ages of 16-18, not 11-13. To me, that dramatically changes the nature of the relationship. Especially since it would be between consenting legal adults by modern reader's standards. It may be creepily psuedo-incest, but at least it's not pedophiliac psuedo-incest.

If we have a timeskip in the epilogue and Arya decides that (as a consenting adult) she wants to marry Jon, I would be okay with it. Otherwise, i don't think GRRM will match a barely pubescent Arya with an adult Jon in a romantic, sexually-charged relationship

[Han Snow]

How hilarious of you to think 16th century values are applicable to a 21st century context.

Well, how hilarious of you to apply 21st norms and values to a FICTIONAL text about a fictional medieval age.

[Han Snow]

Just dropping by, but I found an essay I've wanted to post last time I argued here, but couldn't find it. Well, here it is: The Problem with Juliet . In other words, It's still gross as hell. Even in Shakespeare's times, Juliet would have been a rare exception to the rule, considered too young for marriage and sex by most. So, not really accurate either, and I don't think that Shakespeare having been needlessly gross is an excuse for GRRM to be gross and inaccurate in his work as well. If only because people then get some crazy ideas about the real life in Middle Ages and Early Modernity. *shrugs*

So what? I should post a bunch of essays that disprove this one? If George wants to do it, he will. You can nag him all you want on his not a blog then.

I'm just saying if he wants to he will go there. Arya is what, 12 in Mercy chapter? Read that chapter and say that the author is afraid to go there in a much more disturbing and dark manner than if she genuinely loved someone? Dany was barely 14 when Drogo mounted her like an animal and that is a love story for George, his words. Using the age argument is pointless, when the author has shown that he is more than willing to actually go there.

Now, the uncomfortable feeling you get when picturing such things is another issue entirely and all up to how each of us perceive what is written.

[sleath56]

Well, how hilarious of you to apply 21st norms and values to a FICTIONAL text about a fictional medieval age.

...written by a 21st century author.

You think D&D got less flak for saying that the Cersei rape scene was okay because it was set in a place with medieval standards and such dynamics were common?

[Han Snow]

...written by a 21st century author.

You think D&D got less flak for saying that the Cersei rape scene was okay because it was set in a place with medieval standards and such dynamics were common?

That is not even an argument. Not a valid one.

You are uncomfortable with the prospect of such a scenario, I get it, I'm also not thrilled with it, but that does not mean George shares our discomfort and views on the issue, because I assure you he doesn't.

I'm starting to think a lot of you read some censored heavily edited version of the books because there is no way such lazy arguments would be used when god awful things happen in them, and age was not the issue for the author in earlier instances.

[sleath56]

That is not even an argument. Not a valid one.

Is it not? How many people do you think wouldn't revolt at one of their favourite characters suffering such a fate?

You are uncomfortable with the prospect of such a scenario, I get it, I'm also not thrilled with it, but that does not mean George shares our discomfort and views on the issue, because I assure you he doesn't.

I'm starting to think a lot of you read some censored heavily edited version of the books because there is no way such lazy arguments would be used when god awful things happen in them, and age was not the issue for the author in earlier instances.

If my points were invalid, your points about Dany and Drogo signifying that GRRM is capable of such things is equally so. Eventual Sockholm syndrome theories aside, the whole theme of their marriage was that it was a forced one, and we see through Dany how unpleasant it was for her. The motive of the marriage was not for love, but for Drogo's army and powerbase. In sort, it was non-consensual, at the very least in the beginning. People can accept it because it was made of necessity, and a plot device.

Gendry/Arya, if it does occur, would be most likely a marriage for love. It would be consensual, not made of necessity and does not represent a plot device of itself. People are squicked by non-consensual paedophilic romances.

This is all the difference between (going a bit on a tangent here): for example, a father-daughter abusive incest story, which is accepted by society because it raises awareness about abuse and because it is non-consensual, and a father-daughter romance incest story.

[Ice Turtle]

Gendry/Arya, if it does occur, would be most likely a marriage for love. It would be consensual, not made of necessity and does not represent a plot device of itself. People are squicked by non-consensual paedophilic romances.

??? Am I missing something. Age difference between Jon and Gendry is not even a year.

[sleath56]

??? Am I missing something. Age difference between Jon and Gendry is not even a year.

I never said I supported Jon/Arya either.

[lojzelote]

So what? I should post a bunch of essays that disprove this one? If George wants to do it, he will. You can nag him all you want on his not a blog then.

I'm just saying if he wants to he will go there. Arya is what, 12 in Mercy chapter? Read that chapter and say that the author is afraid to go there in a much more disturbing and dark manner than if she genuinely loved someone? Dany was barely 14 when Drogo mounted her like an animal and that is a love story for George, his words. Using the age argument is pointless, when the author has shown that he is more than willing to actually go there.

Now, the uncomfortable feeling you get when picturing such things is another issue entirely and all up to how each of us perceive what is written.

I know what he said about the dreadful Dany/Drogo relationship, but let's face it, in some part of his mind he must have been aware it's not all sun and roses what he's writing about, with Dany having thoughts how she's going to commit suicide at one point. One hopes his opinions have shifted over the time. He must know that many people today interpret it as marital rape followed by Stockholm Syndrome. People have been far less PC in the 90s than they are now.

(For that matter, I'm okay with Mercy, more or less. She said the word "rape" in relation to the play a lot and she flirted and teased, but nothing happened in the end. It was not truly about sex from her side, she never intended to actually sleep with him, she was using his weakness and leading him into a trap. Also note what the other guard had to say about it. Despite her behaviour, we're not supposed to think she's game now. We're not meant to think positively of this almost one-night-stand. It's not supposed to be a consensual, at least relatively healthy endgame romance.)

I'm also quite put off that at least two of his three main female characters should have sex at 13 (with the third one having been molested since the age of 12, but at least he wouldn't wave away this one as a love story). By his own rules, it's not a norm in his world just like it hadn't been iRL. He could try to muddle up the lines and pretend that it's okay now when due to bad planning the five-year gap blew up in his face, but I'm not going to buy into it, just like I wouldn't buy it if Bran masturbated daydreaming about Meera some time during the time span of the next two books. I don't care how old they should be according to his original timeline. His original plan failed him and I'm unwilling to suspend disbelief over sexual development of the kids, although I'm more malleable in nearly everything else.

Again, he can write whatever he wants, but I'm nearly certain this development would turn the story into garbage for me. YMMV.

[Han Snow]

^^You can't seem to grasp what I'm telling you:

George R. R. Martin does not give a flying fuck what you, I or anyone else feel about any particular future story line. ASOIAF is his story and he is going to do what he alone intends to. And he is going to do in same class, brilliant storytelling way as he has done so far. And yes, we can disagree about that. For me all of his books are brilliant and I have no doubt the rest of them are gonna follow suit. I am disturbed by certain story lines, but that doesn't make them any less brilliant.

[lojzelote]

^^You can't seem to grasp what I'm telling you:

George R. R. Martin does not give a flying fuck what you, I or anyone else feel about any particular future story line. ASOIAF is his story and he is going to do what he alone intends to. And he is going to do in same class, brilliant storytelling way as he has done so far. And yes, we can disagree about that. For me all of his books are brilliant and I have no doubt the rest of them are gonna follow suit. I am disturbed by certain story lines, but that doesn't make them any less brilliant.

No, I understood perfectly well. See the last sentence.

That said, I do believe that GRRM does give a flying fuck what his readers think of his magnum opus. Or at least he should.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

...written by a 21st century author.

You think D&D got less flak for saying that the Cersei rape scene was okay because it was set in a place with medieval standards and such dynamics were common?

Who had one of his leading ladies raped and impregnated at the age of 13 by a 30-something and tried to pass it off as love!

Everyone knows its gross by our standards but the proof is on the paper that the morality in the text is not ours. Sure, lets judge it and how horrible it is but also lets understand that are qualms are different than the ones of the characters involved.

??? Am I missing something. Age difference between Jon and Gendry is not even a year.

People think that Jon looks like a 28 year old Kit Harington and not a teen boy.

No, I understood perfectly well. See the last sentence.

That said, I do believe that GRRM does give a flying fuck what his readers think of his magnum opus. Or at least he should.

He can't get much worse than a 13 year old Dany crying into her pillows as a grown man rapes her every night. He came out the gate with that horrendous story in book 1.

Rhaegar died at the age of 24, Lyanna was 16 and had been 'abducted' by Rhaegar a year earlier. It was a year before that he first took notice of her.

It is what it is and it has to be considered in discussion

[Ghosts Lunch]

If GRRM still intends Arya to be part of any love triangle, it will be with Jon. A Jon/Arya/Gendry would be interesting. But Gendry is not a main character, never was, that's why he wasn't mentioned in that letter.

I actually think that Sansa would be Gendry's "Stark girl", just based on Jaime's remark about Sansa'd better marry a blacksmith somewhere and give up any claim. But they havent even met, so i'm not sure.

I don't see Aegon falling in love with Arya, they still would need to meet, and I don't see much chance for that anytime soon. But again, anything can happen.

Agree Jon and Arya will end up together, this still seems to be the case as of ADwD given how the thought of Arya slowly leds Jon to claiming his idenity and "waking the Dragon" etc

It will work the other way too, eg Nymeria's Wolf Dreams means she can never fully become "no one" and when she randomly hears of the NW stabbing Jon in Nymeria she will be able to detect Jon in Ghost so that will lead her back from being no one to "Arya Stark"

Dareon is a precursor IMO to Arya hunting down and applying the deathblow to the NW

As for Gendry, this seems to tie in with Neds relationship with Robert and the Starks relationship with the "Usurper" Baratheon dynasty. There's a "hands like a Blacksmith" line very early

I think with Gendry it will be friendly, eg I reckon LF will be trying to use Mya Stone in the Vale but SR and Sansa will kill her and LF off, far from hooking up and Sansa will then send in the Gravedigger to hunt down Gendry as a threat in the RL (people have to remember Robert ordered Lady killed plus this will be a reverse dynamic of Neds SC revolt over Dany being assassinated and how it fed into his fear of Jon being killed) but Arya will protect him in a way she couldn't protect Mycah (I reckon Sansa will be at war with her Stark siblings)

Where there is a Jon/Arya/Gendry triangle, I'm not sure if it's a romantic triangle as such but rather a friendship triangle and case of Jon and Arya putting the Baratheons back in as Lords of Storms End via a legitimised Gendry (Brienne will kill Stannis in the north), Jon had a good relationship with Donal Noye whose character may be an Easter egg

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

First off, much of those 'romantic undertones' are subject to interpretation.

Secondly: Romantic undertones =/= they will get together, a notion that seems to be incomprehensible to every shipper- ever.

Thirdly: Arya is bloody eleven years old. Perhaps my greatest justification for why Arya will not have a romance subplot in her story is because GRRM did not do the time-skip. Perhaps it was at that time where he jossed the Jon/Arya idea, as well.

If something like this, against all the odds, does happen, I can't imagine the majority of readers to be pleased with reading something that would be outright paedophilic.

You missed that part of my statement- a very large part. Perhaps the reason I am annoyed with it is because it is so damn sexist. I am not a regular feminist, but when there are thousands of strong badass male lead characters in literature that don't have a romance subplot, whilst nearly nil female leads of the same variety that don't. For some reason, the authors, male or female, had decided all women need a hubby. It's insulting to the characters they write.

In most cases, it doesn't even fit the character. Take Arya, for example: she's an tomboy-turned PTSD child assassin. She herself said that she does not want to get married- ever. Of course, most tomboys 'mature' from that stance as they grow up, but Arya does not have a childhood in which that stance could evolve from.

How does a romance even fit in there?

If that's the main reason people ship Gendry/Arya, then why not ship Hot Pie? He's even meeker, and is the poster-child for a stay-at-home husband, what with his cooking, and all.

You're arguing against the wind here, and clearly haven't read any of my other posts on this thread.

I'm not invested in whom Arya Stark ends up with or sleeps with, and my other posts (which you've ignored) clearly show that. It's foolhardy to ship ASOIAF canon, so I don't do it.

I hope the girl actually survives the series. For what it's worth, I care most about her not ending up dead before Winter is over. I certainly care more about that than which character's bed she ends up warming.

Seems like you're looking to pick a fight. I'll spare you the trouble, and won't be replying to any more of your posts.