Appreciation for King Balon

[Pod The Rod]

1) You overestimate the significance of Ashford. The way Tyrion tells it, it was a minor and inconclusive victory that Mace blew up to make his rep as a soldier.

It's a minor victory for the massive hosts of the Reach. Tyrion is annoyed that Mace brags about it because Mace was not in command.

It took little effort for the Reach to win, but it was devastating for the Stormlands. They'd just been killing each other to the tune of three vicious battles in a single day, and then their surviving forces are smashed.

It was a minor victory only in that it took so little effort for the victors. It certainly wasn't minor in its effect on the war.

All you need to know about it and its effect on the Baratheon forces is that it reduced Robert to hiding in a brothel praying for Ned and Hoster to rescue him.

[hodorisfaclessman]

In the Hundred Years War and other medieval conflicts large numbers of Infantry wore full plate. Why do you assume this is not the case in Westeros (at least for the Reach-Stormlands-Westerlands)?

large numbers of infantry in full plate? , dismounted knights became a more prominant tactic yes as were mercs but large scale armies in full plate?

[Frey Pie]

@ Pod

The North lost The crossroads and Duskendale

I really don't see any idiocy in either of Balons wars. Tywin declared war on riverlands the north the vale and Stormlands and he won. In part cuz of Lysa not entering the war and cuz Mace became his ally.

In regards to the second war, Robb basically claims the Iron Islands for him self, mad disrespectful.

Balon could have been nicer to Theon, but Theon really should not dress like a hooker. Sansa knows how to dress for the Declarents and Ned dresses up for the small council.

Que tumble weed

[Lee-Sensei]

It's a minor victory for the massive hosts of the Reach. Tyrion is annoyed that Mace brags about it because Mace was not in command.

It took little effort for the Reach to win, but it was devastating for the Stormlands. They'd just been killing each other to the tune of three vicious battles in a single day, and then their surviving forces are smashed.

It was a minor victory only in that it took so little effort for the victors. It certainly wasn't minor in its effect on the war.

All you need to know about it and its effect on the Baratheon forces is that it reduced Robert to hiding in a brothel praying for Ned and Hoster to rescue him.

Um... no. There's no evidence that it was a major victory. Considering it only involved the vanguard and we've been told it was inconclusive means that it was probably small.

We also don't know what happened between Ashford and the Battle of the Bells. Between Summerhall and Ashford he went back to Storms End. Why? We don't know. There are far to many things about the Rebellion to say conclusively that Roberts army from the Stormlands had suffered a large and devestating defeat.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I don't think Balon will be beaten thay easily. At this point Renly and Stannis are in the field still. Later it's just stannis but he's going for the jugular. Even if stannis is still defeated at the Blackwater Tywin still has the riverlands, the north, the Iron Isles, dragonstone and Storms end against him, with the Vale and Dorne staying out of any military action. Tywin has a load on his hands, and Balon has got some time to plunder

Either way the simple fact that Robb was not his enemy and Balon was going for independence means attacking the north was a bad idea, regardless of success

The fact that Balon and Tyrion, neither of whom have much love for Tywin, thought he was the likeliest winner of the conflict even in ACOK shows just how powerful Tywin's reputation is. But at that point I'd say Balon's best bets were either an alliance with either the Starks/Tullys or pledging fealty to Renly.

Robb's offer would have to be improved upon though. Even if they beat the Lannisters, if Robb ends up bending the knee to Renly then Balon is left with his dick in the wind. From Balon's POV, I think there would have to be hostages (besides Theon) and/or marriages to ensure that Robb didn't just go home and leave him to face the South alone

Balon's plan for his second rebellion had one major flaw, it was a rebellion.

Attacking the North was the smart thing to do, crowning himself was not. The Ironbon need to limit their enemies to a bare minimum in order to manage, and by crowning himself he makes himself the enemy of all the rest of Westeros.

He should have attacked the rebellious North for the Iron Throne, and asked to keep the west Coast for his services. Sure, he doesn't get independence, but the Iron Isles become considerably more powerful, and they get access to arable lands, which the Ironborn direly need.

Yep. Independence could be the secret long-term goal, but first the Greyjoys needs to expand their territory and alliances. Increasing the power of the Iron Islands, but without making too many enemies, would help Balon's descendants eventually win their freedom.

With that in mind (and without the benefit of hindsight), attacking the North in King Joffrey's name would only make sense after Renly's death. Otherwise Balon would be making an enemy of the Starks, Tyrells, and Baratheons, in the hopes that Tywin somehow beat all of them.

If he wanted to act sooner, striking the West in the name of King Renly may have been the best course. Even if the victorious Renly didn't reward you with new lands, you'd still sail home with all the treasure of Lannisport.