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LmL

The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos

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If Nissa means moon, then Nissa Nissa is literally two moons. Great catch on that!

We have nothing in the text about the sun correlating to a lion. Tywin did not split the sword, Tobho Mott did. And it did not turn red from the splitting but because Tobho Mott added red dye to it, trying to get the steel to look Lannister crimson. Other than that, so far so good.

Alleras is no one's son. Spell the name backwards. Remember what Doran said about Oberyn's playing a game in Oldtown? The Sphinx is the riddle in this case.

The number three is all over Dany's arc and has been from the beginning. That's got to be important.

Tiny minor issues aside, this is awesome work!

Though I can't recall the exact quotes at the moment, I'm pretty sure that the main Lannisters are compared to the sun on different occasions.

Thanks for all the great thoughts and comments, Lord Martin. So, you're taking about Scmendrick's "R + L = Lightbringer" theory. My answer is yes, as in "all of the above." I think Lightbringer was a comet, a sword, definitely the dragons, and Dany and Jon fit as well. So does the Wall, actually.

I was going to recommend that thread to you, but I got the impression that you were already familiar with it. Regardless if its conclusion was correct or not, it is still one of the best threads that I've ever seen on the forums. It's been almost a year since Schmendrick logged on to the forums. I do wonder what happened to him.

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Good stuff guys. Gonna take more time than I have at the moment to read it all in its entirety, but so far you've raised some really interesting correlations and connections.



:cheers:


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Good stuff guys. Gonna take more time than I have at the moment to read it all in its entirety, but so far you've raised some really interesting correlations and connections.

:cheers:

Thanks a lot, Voice of the First Men. I have definitely enjoyed many of your threads as well. Will look forward to hearing your comments when you’ve had time to go through it all. :)

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I was going to recommend that thread to you, but I got the impression that you were already familiar with it. Regardless if its conclusion was correct or not, it is still one of the best threads that I've ever seen on the forums. It's been almost a year since Schmendrick logged on to the forums. I do wonder what happened to him.

I’ve read most of the stuff in Mithras signature tag, and he’s got the R+L=Lightbringer in there. It’s kind of misnamed, really, since it’s mostly about Mithras and Jon, but yes, I totally agree - that’s the kind of post that makes the forums really rewarding. It’s definitely right up there with the very best.. especially for fans of mythology and esoterica like myself. It was certainly an inspiration as far as not being afraid to go in depth and really flesh out the theory. The next section will get into the mythology of Lucifer, which I’m looking forward to very much. It was originally the beginning of the essay, but i figured I shouldn’t start out with 4 paragraphs of non-ASOIAF material. ;) Studying the mythos of lucifer actually was a catalyst to unravelling this whole thing, so I can’t wait to bring it back to him and all his interesting connotations. Lucifer means “Lightbringer,” after all. ;)

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Though I can't recall the exact quotes at the moment, I'm pretty sure that the main Lannisters are compared to the sun on different occasions.

I was going to recommend that thread to you, but I got the impression that you were already familiar with it. Regardless if its conclusion was correct or not, it is still one of the best threads that I've ever seen on the forums. It's been almost a year since Schmendrick logged on to the forums. I do wonder what happened to him.

Well there is Jaime is his golden armor. I think he's been compared to the sun.

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Thanks a lot, Voice of the First Men. I have definitely enjoyed many of your threads as well. Will look forward to hearing your comments when you’ve had time to go through it all. :)

I'm curious, does this astronomy discussion tie in with my Ancient Others theory? Or was your pm regarding a different unified theory than this one ;)

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I’ve read most of the stuff in Mithras signature tag, and he’s got the R+L=Lightbringer in there. It’s kind of misnamed, really, since it’s mostly about Mithras and Jon, but yes, I totally agree - that’s the kind of post that makes the forums really rewarding, to me. It was definitely an inspiration as far as not being afraid to go in depth and really flesh out the theory. The next section will get into the mythology of Lucifer, which I’m looking forward to very much. It was originally the beginning of the essay, but i figured I shouldn’t start out with 4 paragraphs of non-ASOIAF material. ;) Studying the mythos of lucifer actually was a catalyst to unravelling this whole thing, so I can’t wait to bring it back to him and all his interesting connotations. Lucifer means “Lightbringer,” after all. ;)

I think the astronomy angle is a good one. I had been taking notes myself. This was mostly inspired by the presence of the White Bull (Taurus) at the ToJ. Plus, I think GRRM sort of 'used' the Ice Dragon constellation in TPatQ, with the sapphire-eyed Aemond Targaryen riding a dragon.

Well there is Jaime is his golden armor. I think he's been compared to the sun.

Cersei in the Dance epilogue, too.

Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

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Three Attempts to Forge Lightbringer

I've been mulling very much the same notion for a while now. Great write-up, but I'd differ a little on this one, I don't think your water and lion forgings fit.

1. I don't think water as the origin of the comet makes a lot of sense for myth, people aren't going to know what comets are composed of.

2. I don't think the lion as the sun makes much sense either, as the sun already has a role in the astronomical myth: Azor Ahai. Azor Ahai is the husband of Nissa Nissa and wielder of lightbringer, while sun/moon as husband/wife is a common mythic motif, and a comet could be seen as swinging around the sun in the way a warrior swings a sword.

My guess is that the three forgings represent three passes of the comet, and the description of the three forgings matches the disappearance of the comet.

First pass, going out of sight into the Milky Way equivalent*, a good parallel for plunging into water.

Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria's star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships.

Arianne's description is clearly a galactic band like our Milky Way, and we see that Dorne identify it as a fleet of ships, a suitably nautical symbol. Very likely other cultures would see it as a sea or river stars, as the ancient Egyptians saw if as a reflection of the Nile.

Second pass, going out of sight into an equivalent* of the constellation Leo. We know in the North they name one constellation the Shadowcat, and I'd propose it's named after native big cats in different regions, for which "lion" is just a generic translation.

Third pass, moon & boom.

*I say equivalent, but I'm not convinced that the night sky in Westeros isn't very closely modelled on our own.

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This is the one, although it won’t be until part 2 or 3, when I get around to the Night’s King, Last Hero, etc. It’s only tangentially related, but I think when I get there you will certainly be able to contribute. That’s the subject which I still have the most left to pin down, but it definitely relates to the astronomy, so I am going to go there and do the best i can. There will probably be a lot more “this could me one of three things” and “I really am not sure what this part means” than in this first section. I find that when you really focus on a particular thing, it starts to reveal itself. You almost have to do character re-reads every time you have a new line of inquiry. I got a lot out of re-reading all the Daenerys chapters from ACOK, and in the next essay I am going to use a bunch of Brienne stuff from AFFC. AFFC has great stuff from the ironborn, as well as the prologue and epilogue at the citadel, which I already went into.



Anyway, I really like your thinking in regards to the Others, and you have a great eye for detail to pick up on some of the differences between the various cold & dead people. Perhaps I’ll send you the draft of that section so you can help improve it, if you’re interested.


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This is the one, although it won’t be until part 2 or 3, when I get around to the Night’s King, Last Hero, etc. It’s only tangentially related, but I think when I get there you will certainly be able to contribute. That’s the subject which I still have the most left to pin down, but it definitely relates to the astronomy, so I am going to go there and do the best i can. There will probably be a lot more “this could me one of three things” and “I really am not sure what this part means” than in this first section. I find that when you really focus on a particular thing, it starts to reveal itself. You almost have to do character re-reads every time you have a new line of inquiry. I got a lot out of re-reading all the Daenerys chapters from ACOK, and in the next essay I am going to use a bunch of Brienne stuff from AFFC. AFFC has great stuff from the ironborn, as well as the prologue and epilogue at the citadel, which I already went into.

Anyway, I really like your thinking in regards to the Others, and you have a great eye for detail to pick up on some of the differences between the various cold & dead people. Perhaps I’ll send you the draft of that section so you can help improve it, if you’re interested.

Sure. Not sure if you've squeezed him in there but Symeon Star Eyes is another likely bridge between Men, Stars, and Others. If BtB=LH and LH=NK, I can't help but wonder if SSE is BtB as he gives his soul to the pale woman. Just posted my Others hierarchy in general a few minutes ago, link in sig. Lot of detail there you might find useful.

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Nissa Nissa may not translate too moon moon, it probably translates to second moon. As the symbolism would relate to the second moon being destroyed not both moons.

The other moon though if I am not mistaken was scared.

“It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.”

“The red woman walked round the fire three times, praying once in the speech of Asshai, once in High Valyrian, and once in the Common Tongue.”

3 circles.

“The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart,”

Not the maid but the mother is chosen. Why?

Because moon moon may mean second moon or child moon. Nissa was probably pregnant. And there is the problem. Because as you go into the world book it tells you when Azor broke the world he got a sword but no new child was born. No new ruler.

Say it all the time and I will say it again, unity of opposition.

Maiden and Lion = God Emperor

Sun and Moon = Dragons

Azor and Nissa = Lightbringer

More likely than not depending on perspective in one way or another they all end in with Dragons. A person, a sword (dragon steel), or a dragon. Even that God Emperor of Yi Ti. In Dany's wake the dragon vision she sees them. Cheering her on.

Though before the comet, the comet something else came first. The Bloodstone. These cycles repeat, why did they build the 5 forts along the grey waste? It's a cold dead plaste. What could scare you enough to build 1000 foot high walls along a dead waste land?

Then you got the bloodstone and that story mirrors the Dance of the Dragons. And then you got the Long night. But fire pushed it back and fire took the world and Valyria rose. Then Valyria fell. Then the Others returned and then the dragons returned and it all more than likely goes back to a stone. A stone dropped in a pond if you would and the ripples spread out.

Hope some of that helps.

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I've been mulling very much the same notion for a while now. Great write-up, but I'd differ a little on this one, I don't think your water and lion forgings fit.

1. I don't think water as the origin of the comet makes a lot of sense for myth, people aren't going to know what comets are composed of.

2. I don't think the lion as the sun makes much sense either, as the sun already has a role in the astronomical myth: Azor Ahai. Azor Ahai is the husband of Nissa Nissa and wielder of lightbringer, while sun/moon as husband/wife is a common mythic motif, and a comet could be seen as swinging around the sun in the way a warrior swings a sword.

My guess is that the three forgings represent three passes of the comet, and the description of the three forgings matches the disappearance of the comet.

First pass, going out of sight into the Milky Way equivalent*, a good parallel for plunging into water.

Arianne's description is clearly a galactic band like our Milky Way, and we see that Dorne identify it as a fleet of ships, a suitably nautical symbol. Very likely other cultures would see it as a sea or river stars, as the ancient Egyptians saw if as a reflection of the Nile.

Second pass, going out of sight into an equivalent* of the constellation Leo. We know in the North they name one constellation the Shadowcat, and I'd propose it's named after native big cats in different regions, for which "lion" is just a generic translation.

Third pass, moon & boom.

*I say equivalent, but I'm not convinced that the night sky in Westeros isn't very closely modelled on our own.

Hey that’s really interesting stuff!! I’m definitely less solid on the water forging than the other two, but I do think the lion forging is the splitting of the comet - the Tywin splitting Ned’s sword passage just screams out to me. I do see your point as far as the people on the planet wouldn’t understand the forgings in the technical way I laid out, so if we are accounting for the whole myth as being a description, you may have a point. That’s why I focused on the tails of the comet, because the tail is what makes it look like a sword. The water foreign could simply refer to the blue and white color of the first tail, and nothing more. Then, when the comet that was blue and white comes back around the sun and appears red all of the sudden, the people on the planet would surely notice the change in color, and perhaps work that into their myth.

I do however like your idea, because comets are often named after the constellation they appear to originate from. That certainly could work, and I’m actually going to use that very idea in part 2, concerning the ‘Maiden herself' who lost her heart Ser Galladon of Morne, and gave him the ‘Just Maid,’ a magic sword. The ‘just maid’ is Virgo, the virgin, who is holding the scales of Libra - literally, a ‘just maid.’ Don’t want to let the cat out of the bag, but the point is your line of thinking has a lot of merit.

The other thing that the 3 forgings may represent is the 3 IMPACTS on the planet, resulting from the moon breakup. I’ve go pretty strong evidence yet to come that there were 3 impacts, and I think I know where two of them are. You actually just gave me a clue by pointing out that bit about Mymeria’s ships being the Milky Way.

I do think Martin is using our night sky with different names for the constellations. The ice dragon is Draco, the eye being the north star. I like the shadow cat analogy for Leo. “When the warrior is in the moon maid,” the time to steal a wife according to the willings, means when Mars is in Virgo - and indeed, it’s a common pagan belief that that is a good time to conceive.

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Nissa Nissa may not translate too moon moon, it probably translates to second moon. As the symbolism would relate to the second moon being destroyed not both moons.

The other moon though if I am not mistaken was scared.

“It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.”

“The red woman walked round the fire three times, praying once in the speech of Asshai, once in High Valyrian, and once in the Common Tongue.”

3 circles.

“The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart,”

Not the maid but the mother is chosen. Why?

Because moon moon may mean second moon or child moon. Nissa was probably pregnant. And there is the problem. Because as you go into the world book it tells you when Azor broke the world he got a sword but no new child was born. No new ruler.

Say it all the time and I will say it again, unity of opposition.

Maiden and Lion = God Emperor

Sun and Moon = Dragons

Azor and Nissa = Lightbringer

More likely than not depending on perspective in one way or another they all end in with Dragons. A person, a sword (dragon steel), or a dragon. Even that God Emperor of Yi Ti. In Dany's wake the dragon vision she sees them. Cheering her on.

Though before the comet, the comet something else came first. The Bloodstone. These cycles repeat, why did they build the 5 forts along the grey waste? It's a cold dead plaste. What could scare you enough to build 1000 foot high walls along a dead waste land?

Then you got the bloodstone and that story mirrors the Dance of the Dragons. And then you got the Long night. But fire pushed it back and fire took the world and Valyria rose. Then Valyria fell. Then the Others returned and then the dragons returned and it all more than likely goes back to a stone. A stone dropped in a pond if you would and the ripples spread out.

Hope some of that helps.

Theres a lot that you mentioned that is going to be in the next section. In order to comment, I’d have to start paraphrasing the next section, so I will hold off. You’ve got some great ideas though, and a few are ones that had not occurred to me, so I very much appreciate that. I will say that it is possible that the other moon, the remaining one, did take some damage from the explosion of the elf moon, and I will explore the evidence for and against. I cannot decide if the hints are that it WILL take damage in the future, being reduced but not destroyed (planets is totally fucked with no moons), or if it was reduced but not destroyed in the past. The idea is very strongly implied though, one or the other.

Consider that in Amerindian, Nissa means “grandmother moon.” If the Nissa Nissa moon was the original mother of dragons, either through the firestorm or more likely the firestorm AND the origin of dragons, then “grandmother of dragons” makes a lot of sense, compared to Dany’s “mother of dragons.” However, I agree that the pregnancy connotation is there with Nissa Nissa. It may be referring only to the destroyed moon being the mother of dragons, but it may mean more. I do have an opinion, which I will get to in part 2.

Thanks very much for the response. Food for thought.

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Sure. Not sure if you've squeezed him in there but Symeon Star Eyes is another likely bridge between Men, Stars, and Others. If BtB=LH and LH=NK, I can't help but wonder if SSE is BtB as he gives his soul to the pale woman. Just posted my Others hierarchy in general a few minutes ago, link in sig. Lot of detail there you might find useful.

There is definitely something going on there, with the eyes + stars + sapphires. Not the least of which is that Symeon's eyes were supposedly replaced with star sapphires, which are actually different from regular sapphires. - images. But the most important point of that description, imo, is to connect sapphires with stars, as in the Ice Dragon.

Of course all of this sapphire stuff makes Brienne an interesting character to look into, being from the Sapphire Isle. That sigil is pretty neat, since we're on the subject. ;)

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Sure. Not sure if you've squeezed him in there but Symeon Star Eyes is another likely bridge between Men, Stars, and Others. If BtB=LH and LH=NK, I can't help but wonder if SSE is BtB as he gives his soul to the pale woman. Just posted my Others hierarchy in general a few minutes ago, link in sig. Lot of detail there you might find useful.

Sweet, I will check out your new Others thread right away. I agree SSE has a giant flashing red light on his double bladed sickle-thingie. Definitely something going on.

My theory is that Maester Aemon isn’t dead.. he’s going to break out of that cask they stuffed him in, pop the star sapphires back in to his eye sockets, break out the double bladed reaper, and set about taking revenge on Sam, the Cinnamon Wind, and everyone that was responsible for stuffing him in the cask. It’s just like Lies of Locke Lamora, except it wasn’t piss in the cask.

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There is definitely something going on there, with the eyes + stars + sapphires. Not the least of which is that Symeon's eyes were supposedly replaced with star sapphires, which are actually different from regular sapphires. - images. But the most important point of that description, imo, is to connect sapphires with stars, as in the Ice Dragon.

Of course all of this sapphire stuff makes Brienne an interesting character to look into, being from the Sapphire Isle. That sigil is pretty neat, since we're on the subject. ;)

Her dad is the “Evenstar” too, which is hugely significant. Gallon of Morne is significant, and that’s a tale from Tarth.

For those who think Ned’s sword might have been Lightbringer, or one of the two ‘Lightbringer swords” that I think existed, then Brienne is even more important, because she’s killing people with Lightbringer in front of weirwood trees... signifiant? Yes, I would say so.

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Serwyn of the Mirror Shield is the one that blew my mind. I wonder if anyone can decode that, given the information in this essay. Think about astronomy, and the symbols laid out above.

One of the reasons I broke this up the way that I did, reserving a lot of good stuff for future parts, is that I want to give other people a chance to enjoy the fun of discovery that i had. I think EVERY IMPORTANT MYTH in the books has astronomy behind it... so, laying out this first part, peeps have a chance to think about all the other myths and try to figure them out in regards to astronomy. I don’t want to be a total spoil-sport.

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There is definitely something going on there, with the eyes + stars + sapphires. Not the least of which is that Symeon's eyes were supposedly replaced with star sapphires, which are actually different from regular sapphires. - images. But the most important point of that description, imo, is to connect sapphires with stars, as in the Ice Dragon.

Of course all of this sapphire stuff makes Brienne an interesting character to look into, being from the Sapphire Isle. That sigil is pretty neat, since we're on the subject. ;)

Indeed. SSE connects Men + Night Fort (NK) + Stars (in eyes like the Others) + the Ice Dragon constellation itself. That northern constellation, or at least its proximity/direction toward the curtain of light Bran glimpsed seem tied to the mystery of the heart of winter indeed. Must be a reason for their eyes to be so star-like.

Regarding those images of star sapphires, they may be far more akin to what GRRM had envisioned for the eyes of the Others... Rather than the blue tapetum lucidum eyeshine sort of thing we see in the calendar illustrations, and the electrical-current iris HBO has given us. I'm reminded of lines like "eyes like blue stars..."

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Her dad is the “Evenstar” too, which is hugely significant. Gallon of Morne is significant, and that’s a tale from Tarth.

For those who think Ned’s sword might have been Lightbringer, or one of the two ‘Lightbringer swords” that I think existed, then Brienne is even more important, because she’s killing people with Lightbringer in front of weirwood trees... signifiant? Yes, I would say so.

She also uses a morningstar to win the melee at Bitterbridge. I have a post about that here. It's an interesting passage, and my analysis notes the possible reference to Venus.

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield is the one that blew my mind. I wonder if anyone can decode that, given the information in this essay. Think about astronomy, and the symbols laid out above.

One of the reasons I broke this up the way that I did, reserving a lot of good stuff for future parts, is that I want to give other people a chance to enjoy the fun of discovery that i had. I think EVERY IMPORTANT MYTH in the books has astronomy behind it... so, laying out this first part, peeps have a chance to think about all the other myths and try to figure them out in regards to astronomy. I don’t want to be a total spoil-sport.

Perseus, I assume.

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Sweet, I will check out your new Others thread right away. I agree SSE has a giant flashing red light on his double bladed sickle-thingie. Definitely something going on.

My theory is that Maester Aemon isn’t dead.. he’s going to break out of that cask they stuffed him in, pop the star sapphires back in to his eye sockets, break out the double bladed reaper, and set about taking revenge on Sam, the Cinnamon Wind, and everyone that was responsible for stuffing him in the cask. It’s just like Lies of Locke Lamora, except it wasn’t piss in the cask.

Cool please do. I mostly posted it because I got sick of answering questions about the differences between Others and white walkers LOL.

My theory is that Maester Aemon isn’t dead.. he’s going to break out of that cask they stuffed him in, pop the star sapphires back in to his eye sockets, break out the double bladed reaper, and set about taking revenge on Sam, the Cinnamon Wind, and everyone that was responsible for stuffing him in the cask. It’s just like Lies of Locke Lamora, except it wasn’t piss in the cask.

That would be awesome.... Though, I've already mourned Maester Aemon. I think he deserves to rest in peace, but on the other hand, the cask never seemed right.

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