The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos

[Aslerys]

Interesting also that the sigil of Tarth is 2 suns and 2 moons. A few more facts from the WB:

I was really hoping for some connection to the Daynes, but no such luck.

Well, some people think that the Targaryen in Tarth family tree is one of Egg's sisters because they are the more recent Targ princesses without known descendants and if that is true, Brienne actually has Dayne's blood given that Maekar's wife, Rhae and Daella's mother was a Dayne. :)

Great thread btw!! It's a really fascinating read! :bowdown:

[Mychel_Redfort]

Maybe, i don't exlclude that, afterall there is a religion called the "moonsingers" and i have wondered before if those moonsingers could maybe do some lunar manipulation, that is moving the moon around by singing to it.

I agree the moonsingers may be an interesting lead.

Well a waxing half moon would rise around that time, and indeed a wning one much later. So why wouldn't we think it to be waxing at that point?

Shouldn't a waxing half moon rise around noon? That's why I dismissed it.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Jon has lots of Perseus parallels (a hidden prince raised by an honorable man, given a magic sword, Mormont asked him whether he had a winged horse etc.)

I think the household of Stannis fits perfectly with the rest of the Perseus mythology.

That's really a wonderful catch you've made here, it makes a lot of sense. I particularly like the Pegasus link with Jeor's mention of a winged horse. I love it when an awkward quote finds a meaningful sense. The Shireen/Andromeda parallel seems also clear.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Moon moon is also the wolf on the Internet .

Wolf= stark

Coincidence ?

I had to google this one to get the reference. I highly doubt it's pertinent, Nissa Nissa is much more likely.

[White Ravens]

Was it? I looked further in the chapter and only found mention of a half moon an undetermined number of days after.

Regularly when I drive home after work on evening but still well before sunset I often see a full moon or near well above the horizon, and it's quite hard to miss it.

Yes, it was. A rising full moon always occurs on one horizon while the sun is setting on the opposite horizon, which is exactly what Jon saw. A half moon happens 7 days later.

The conditions you have on your drive home from work when the moon is near the horizon in daylight only exist for a few days a month and only for a brief period of time on those days. Similar things happen for a few hours on a few days in the morning.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Yes, it was. A rising full moon always occurs on one horizon while the sun is setting on the opposite horizon, which is exactly what Jon saw. A half moon happens 7 days later.

Right but as I've listed before, GRRM seems to have moonrise happen a bit after sunset in most of the cases, whatever the phase. And the AGOT's prologue shows a half-moon rising after the stars have come up, that would be impossible on Earth. That's why I think it's not necessarily a full moon in this unique daylight spotting.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

A little fuel for your fire:

"Two BIG books. 1500 manuscript pages each - that's 3000 pages. I think I have a good shot. And you know, if I really get pressed, I've already established that red comet. I can just have it hit Westeros and wipe out all life."

http://www.blastr.com/2013-11-25/heres-how-george-rr-martin-says-he-plans-finish-song-ice-fire

[Sigbjorn]

Is it possible valyrian steel is related to the broken moon? The forging of Lightbringer sounds an awful lot like the forging of valyrian steel, which supposedly is anathema to the Others. I'm also reminded of the sword Dawn, forged from a fallen star, that has properties akin to valyrian steel.

[LmL]

Is it possible valyrian steel is related to the broken moon? The forging of Lightbringer sounds an awful lot like the forging of valyrian steel, which supposedly is anathema to the Others. I'm also reminded of the sword Dawn, forged from a fallen star, that has properties akin to valyrian steel.

Stay tuned for part 2. :) You're thinking the right way, according to my theory.

[Aderyn]

Wow, the OP's analysis was so impressive that I had to take time to read every single comment posted on this thread. Standing ovation for you, LmL! And to think that this was only the first part of a series of essays.... truly something this forum has been needing for a long time now. You are one of those precious people who make the long wait for TWOW a tiny bit easier. :)

I have a little to contribute myself, I'm still quite overwhelmed after 14 pages of reading. But as to this ongoing moon talk, I would just like to add that in my opinion, there isn't anything suspicious going on with the fact that the moon seemingly appears only in the nighttime. On the contrary, that seems more natural (in literature, that is) than stating all the possible phases and appearances of the moon to rule out the possibility of unnatural celestial behaviour. In literature, I think it would strike as slightly odd to pinpoint the moon was visible in the sky during daytime, unless it served some purpose. Most of us know that the moon can be seen in the daylight as well, but 99% of the time it is associated with the night. And in literature, it is one of the key elements of the night imagery, in addition to the numerous symbolic and metaphorical meanings it carries, so I don't think there's anything fishy going on.

[Waters Gate]

I like the Hadrian's Wall latitude as well. It would seem all of the known landmass of Planetos fall between it, and the equator, roughly speaking.

Actually stuff is likely all more north than the tropic of capricorn, summer islands probably included .... big world huh

Shouldn't a waxing half moon rise around noon? That's why I dismissed it.

It would rise around noon, be at it's height around 6, and settle around midnight. That means that it should be visible when the night falls. However, and i didn't notice this detail before now, it does indeed say that the moon started to rise around that hour. The waning half moon rises at midnight and settle's at noon. But indeed their observation seems to be made at evening, which is indeed tottaly illogical, and i see youre point now, and btw great catch.

Now i get youre idea of them getting to a certain point around the artic circle where the planet's tilt affects their perception of time.

I have a little to contribute myself, I'm still quite overwhelmed after 14 pages of reading. But as to this ongoing moon talk, I would just like to add that in my opinion, there isn't anything suspicious going on with the fact that the moon seemingly appears only in the nighttime. On the contrary, that seems more natural (in literature, that is) than stating all the possible phases and appearances of the moon to rule out the possibility of unnatural celestial behaviour. In literature, I think it would strike as slightly odd to pinpoint the moon was visible in the sky during daytime, unless it served some purpose. Most of us know that the moon can be seen in the daylight as well, but 99% of the time it is associated with the night. And in literature, it is one of the key elements of the night imagery, in addition to the numerous symbolic and metaphorical meanings it carries, so I don't think there's anything fishy going on.

There is not so much suspicious with seeing a certain phase moon on itself, the more so because Grrm doesn't make a distinction between waxing and waning. The waxing half moon can be seen one half of the day when it's around (between noon and midnight) and the waning can be seen the other half of the day, between midnight and noon.

But the text says that the half moon rises around nightfall. And nightfall is not midnight nor noon. A half moon either rises at noon or midnight, but not at what appears to be the evening, thats exactly the time when it shouldnt be rising but actually be at it's highest point in the sky.

And i guess this is a comman problem with Grrm then, that he constantly makes whatever moonphase rise at illogical hours? Is it always the same time as night falls?

[LmL]

Wow, the OP's analysis was so impressive that I had to take time to read every single comment posted on this thread. Standing ovation for you, LmL! And to think that this was only the first part of a series of essays.... truly something this forum has been needing for a long time now. You are one of those precious people who make the long wait for TWOW a tiny bit easier. :)

I have a little to contribute myself, I'm still quite overwhelmed after 14 pages of reading. But as to this ongoing moon talk, I would just like to add that in my opinion, there isn't anything suspicious going on with the fact that the moon seemingly appears only in the nighttime. On the contrary, that seems more natural (in literature, that is) than stating all the possible phases and appearances of the moon to rule out the possibility of unnatural celestial behaviour. In literature, I think it would strike as slightly odd to pinpoint the moon was visible in the sky during daytime, unless it served some purpose. Most of us know that the moon can be seen in the daylight as well, but 99% of the time it is associated with the night. And in literature, it is one of the key elements of the night imagery, in addition to the numerous symbolic and metaphorical meanings it carries, so I don't think there's anything fishy going on.

Thanks very much for all the kind words, on behalf of myself and those who contributed. Buying time until the next book is what we all are trying to do :)

I tend to agree with you on the moon / daytime thing. Since we are proposing celestial scenarios hidden in metaphor, though, we have to thoroughly exhaust every possibility. It's ticky, because we don't know how far Martin is going with the "science-ish" underpinnings for his magic systems. But there appears to be some, and it's pretty damn interesting. :)

[Aderyn]

Thanks very much for all the kind words, on behalf of myself and those who contributed. Buying time until the next book is what we all are trying to do :)

Although if the next part doesn't show up soon I'm going to start referring to you as "GRRM Jr." :devil: With all due respect of course.

I tend to agree with you on the moon / daytime thing. Since we are proposing celestial scenarios hidden in metaphor, though, we have to thoroughly exhaust every possibility. It's ticky, because we don't know how far Martin is going with the "science-ish" underpinnings for his magic systems. But there appears to be some, and it's pretty damn interesting. :)

Yeah I agree that we shouldn't leave anything out in our analysis.

And as to Waters Gate's response, I admit my comment was slightly off tangent but that is simply because much of the astronomy stuff is, alas, way above my paygrade :( Maybe now is the time to start digging into it, if only to be able to better follow and participate in this discussion

[LmL]

Actually stuff is likely all more north than the tropic of capricorn, summer islands probably included .... big world huh

It would rise around noon, be at it's height around 6, and settle around midnight. That means that it should be visible when the night falls. However, and i didn't notice this detail before now, it does indeed say that the moon started to rise around that hour. The waning half moon rises at midnight and settle's at noon. But indeed their observation seems to be made at evening, which is indeed tottaly illogical, and i see youre point now, and btw great catch.

Now i get youre idea of them getting to a certain point around the artic circle where the planet's tilt affects their perception of time.

There is not so much suspicious with seeing a certain phase moon on itself, the more so because Grrm doesn't make a distinction between waxing and waning. The waxing half moon can be seen one half of the day when it's around (between noon and midnight) and the waning can be seen the other half of the day, between midnight and noon.

But the text says that the half moon rises around nightfall. And nightfall is not midnight nor noon. A half moon either rises at noon or midnight, but not at what appears to be the evening, thats exactly the time when it shouldnt be rising but actually be at it's highest point in the sky.

And i guess this is a comman problem with Grrm then, that he constantly makes whatever moonphase rise at illogical hours? Is it always the same time as night falls?

Paging Ran, paging Ran to the front desk. Ran to the front desk for a customer service question. Thank you.

[LmL]

Although if the next part doesn't show up soon I'm going to start referring to you as "GRRM Jr." :devil: With all due respect of course.

Should be this week sometime. I chuckled though. :)

[Mychel_Redfort]

And i guess this is a comman problem with Grrm then, that he constantly makes whatever moonphase rise at illogical hours? Is it always the same time as night falls?

Yes. You can check the lists I made here and here. Apart from the last occurrence, the only sighting in daylight, every time a moonrise is mentioned, it's soon after sunset.

[Waters Gate]

Yes. You can check the lists I made here and here. Apart from the last occurrence, the only sighting in daylight, every time a moonrise is mentioned, it's soon after sunset.

Hmm ok, let me try to give a working scenario. Succes is far from guaranteed be warned.

For one on planetos to always see the moon rise on a specific hour of day as they seem to, then the moon would need to be at a somewhat fixed position behind earth and actually never pass in front of it. Therefore, the moon would actually need to be a planet that is just moving fairly closely to planetos, isn't too big, and have a speed that makes it roughly keep up with planetos and sit at a certain angle.

While that does give an explenation to why you would always see that object tise at a certain time of the day or night, the issue one has now is the phase. You will always get a full moon like that, unlless maybe something passes in front of it, but then again that object would be illuminated then too by the sun. The only way it could look darkened to some degree is if it was eclipsed by planetos itself or a planet between the sun and planetos. Putting too much planets between the sun and planetos is an issue, so eclipsed by Planetos seems more rational.

But to have this 2nd planet have regular phases then, it would kinda need to move back and forth, have a variable speed?

Ok so what about this. you have planetos as say the 2nd planet around its sun, and then on the third path there is are 2 planets who rotate around a comon center of gravity. And these 2 things are rotating around eachother at such an angle in relation to planetos that both planets are eclipsed by planetos but there is usually one that is seen or part seen because only part eclipsed by Westeros? I guess the comon center of gravity would need to be at a point that is roughly at the edge of being eclipsed.

Obviously you going to get difficulties fast when suggesting alternative scenario's. But if you would need an explenation on why the moon is always rising at a set time in day then it would be because it sits at a fairly set angle.

[Avlonnic]

I may have missed these in the threads and I don't know if they are of value but just in case:

It is possible that the Moonmaid rises at the same time similar to the moon. There is a quote in ASOS, Jaime, Chapter 31:
"The King's Crown was at the zenith, and he could see the Stallion rearing, and there the Swan. The Moonmaid, shy as ever, was half-hidden behind a pine tree." This may imply the Moonmaid is never directly overhead but in a fixed aspect. Of course, it is also ripe for a metaphoric assessment.

Also, in ASOS, Jaime 1, the description of Brienne's pushing a boulder off the cliff onto Ryger's galley is interesting - vaguely reminiscent of the Allerys/apple scene. There is a rain of pebbles first and then the boulder breaks in half before smashing into the boat. One part passes through the boat (cores it?) and lands in the water.

[LmL]

Also, in ASOS, Jaime 1, the description of Brienne's pushing a boulder off the cliff onto Ryger's galley is interesting - vaguely reminiscent of the Allerys/apple scene. There is a rain of pebbles first and then the boulder breaks in half before smashing into the boat. One part passes through the boat (cores it?) and lands in the water.

Oh bingo! You found one! I was hoping for this - other little dramas that fit the pattern that I had missed. Absolutel bingotastic! You just earned yourself a mighty hat tip when I use that example. Huzzah!

I'll have to re-read that chapter and examine the details to see what it might say about the 3 forgings, which is one of the foggier parts of the interpretation I / we are trying to make.

Notable that it's Brienne in this scene....

[Mychel_Redfort]

Hmm ok, let me try to give a working scenario. Succes is far from guaranteed be warned.

I've tried to follow you and I feel I need some aspirin :cool4:

Let's suppose the moon is not a satellite but a planet. If the planet's orbit is inside Planetos's orbit, it should have phases, but from Planetos it has to stay near the Sun, so it must be seen just after sunset or just before sunrise : our moon makes the contrary, it's visible from after sunset to before sunrise. So the planet's orbit is outside Planetos's orbit, but then we shouldn't see phases, so we have to find a way to explain to phases. Am I correct up to this point ?